Macross Frontier 2nd Movie: Sayonara no Tsubasa

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

So I guess the question is this, if you had a choice to see the movies as the tv series and the tv series as ywo movies woud you like the movie script more?

I'd pick the movie scripts for sure. The biggest problem with the TV show was that the plot was overly bloated with extraneous bits that don't add anything to the show. A leaner script can neatly avoid that - it'd be great if they could slip in a bunch of wacky adventures to fill out the runtime.

[akron88]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

After re-watching both the movies and the tv series, I gotta say, the tv series drags it's feet a lot, it takes way way too long for it to make its reveals, and by the time it does, its no longer a surprise. Then by the time it gets to the end it ends up needing more time to show the show becomes rushed.

The movies on the other hand had the opposite problem, it was at times an information dump as the movies had to fully utilize all of its time in order to tell the story, and what comes out is a movie that feels somewhat rushed.

So I guess the question is this, if you had a choice to see the movies as the tv series and the tv series as two movies would you like the movie script more?

I agree with you on both, but I think the TV series drag on a lot more than the movies are rushed. In all honesty, in the former, everything went at an uneven and inconsistent pace whereas in the movie at least the "bam-BAM!-bam!" (so to speak ) sequence of actions kept it engaging and able to nicely undertake a succession of events. The concept of "rushed" in the latter, I think, it's only noticeable due to our previous knowledge of the fleshing out of characters in a 25 episode anime setting (not that I think it was well done there, but certainly it was more expansive).

On your last question, I'd turn the movies' plot on a tv series anytime of the day. The characterization of everyone was, for me, more enjoyable (even on the short time of the movies) and more complete. Some people may say that they took a bit of the "realistic" flaws out of the characters, but for me the presence of those in the TV series only contributed to non-sensical developments that were hard to relate to or even appropriately understand (which, funnily enough, it's the perfect recipe/melting pot/sty for a good ol' ship war!) at any level. It derailed the experience (for me at least) so yeah, definitely the movie script!

[magnuskn]

The problem is that Kawamori has a real hard-on for not resolving romances in a traditional way, at least from what I've seen. So for some reason the two romance partners will not be together in the end, be it by just ending the series ( Macross TV ), abduction to the other end of the galaxy ( Macross movie ), discorporation ( Aquarion 1 ), stupidity ( Escaflowne ) and whatever the retarded ending to the second Aquarion series was, I already forgot. Oh, wait, there the two milquetoast mains were together, but the much more interesting female character was left alone. Okay, I'll give him that.

[Matts]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

So I guess the question is this, if you had a choice to see the movies as the tv series and the tv series as ywo movies woud you like the movie script more?

That's an interesting question. Thing is, the movies work the way they do because they are as short as they are, some elements would improve the series, but overall I don't think it would work as a 25 episode show.
As for the series, there is a reason they changed so much for the movies so that the story would work.
I like them both, with their flaws, so I wouldn't prefer one over the other if it means switching the format.

What the movies have going for them and what I would change about the series is the bond between the 2 girls. There is too much focus on their feelings for Alto, and while their bond is there, it doesn't work nearly as good as in the movies. I felt that this was especially bad by episode 25.
The other thing I liked was how Ranka already knew Alto and didn't have that insecurity about her, that was there even at the very end of episode 25 when she challenged Sheryl. She no longer suffers from this or wanting to impress Alto clouding her sence of judgement and comes off as more independent, responsible and overall cheerfull. She doesn't act awkward when Sheryl is around anymore, the best example being her reaction to Sheryl's 'Alto is my slave' at the beginning of movie 2 in contrast to episode 8. She isn't as easily hurt and doesn't mope around.

I don't think the characters are less realistic, it's more how they changed events around and how they react to them.

[akron88]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

The problem is that Kawamori has a real hard-on for not resolving romances in a traditional way, at least from what I've seen. So for some reason the two romance partners will not be together in the end, be it by just ending the series ( Macross TV ), abduction to the other end of the galaxy ( Macross movie ), discorporation ( Aquarion 1 ), stupidity ( Escaflowne ) and whatever the retarded ending to the second Aquarion series was, I already forgot. Oh, wait, there the two milquetoast mains were together, but the much more interesting female character was left alone. Okay, I'll give him that.

You know, what's funny 'bout that is that technically, his endings being what they are, and this being again a bittersweet one (which I think is over-used and over-rated), even so... I think it was miles better than the TV series: which was, so to speak, "happy". So, you'd think I'd applaud that as a change, but truly, for me it was an awful (and lazy) ending.

Tell you what, I bet if he came out with an OVA or another movie, we would still, at some level, be unhappy due to the fact the creator's way of finishing stories is either side of the scale or the opposite extreme of that side. By reading your thoughts on his other series (which I haven't really seen), that tells me that if (almost) anyone watches his works they can already expect a Kawamori' ending, since there's and established pattern.

But, of the series I have seen, I can observe a similar pattern (that is, either bittersweet ending or non-sensical just-as-inconclusive "happy" ending) I'd be willing to bet those are the kind of endings Japanese viewers expect as per part of their culture (maybe samurais and heroes killing themselves in legendary prose are a part of their collective conscience?), and either they cannot come up with an "out of the norm" conclusion or they would just dislike that.

All this means if we got another OVA or movie, it would be the exact same thing, and we would think the same thing at the end (damn us, westernized bunch of children!) due to a clear difference of values...I guess we should be thankful at least is a hopeful ending, since that's the closest to happy we'll get without significantly derailing the conclusion!

...oh, there's also the option in the next Macross (set 72313124029374304942392592952572352359235564597463 947640957693475346957345609347564395736509374 years in the future, we hear a sentence regarding what happened to Alto/Sheryl/Ranka )

[LoveMeKags]

I posted this at BakaBT too but I felt a need to also post the message here.
I hope it helps those of you who had unspoken questions about this.

I have the official Blu-Ray Hybrid Pack and I viewed this scene to verify everyone's question of it. The official source has grain all throughout this scene, which is why it is not removed from the encode. If anyone would like a screenshot, here are 2 of the scene from my BD disc:

Spoiler for grain:

The first movie has no grain whatsoever for the entire movie.
The second movie has grain entirely throughout this scene. Not just any grain, but Gaussian grain (exceptionally heavy & nearly impossible to remove without damaging footage). People continuously asked if it was an encode problem for the raw or fansub releases; but it isn't. The official Blu-Ray & the Hybrid Pack alike have the same issue. You could try to remove the grain but it would erase important pieces of the footage to do so. It is best to leave as is. So every encoder has done the right thing.

I found out about this while watching the movie on my computer & also encoding it onto my computer. The source itself has the issue. I am to think this is an error on the production's part & not a release error. Anyone who knows if this was in the theatrical version, let me know. Naturally, newer anime doesn't have excessive grain like this & there is no logical reason for its appearance.

Anyway, thought I'd drop by and tell those who do not own the Blu-Ray or Hybrid Pack.
Finally, this is not an encode error. The official source also contains the grain. There is no way to be rid of it, I'm afraid.

[Qikz]

I just finished watching Fronteir for the first time today, is it worth watching the movies or is it just a retelling of the story? I might just watch them in a month or so.

[Matts]

The 1st movie is a retelling with twists at the end that lead the way to the 2nd which is an original story, they are worth checking out.

[Polarpew]

This movies series was just simply GLORIOUS. Had mental orgasms watching the concerts and every time the music starts, the production value was through the roof. Got to say this was definitely more impressive than the T.V. series. SherylxAlto YES WE CAN!
Animation was simply breathlessly beautiful

[leolim]

So did Alto Come back?

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by leolim

So did Alto Come back?

He’s still too busy playing cards with Shin, Hikaru, and the Vajra Queen in the furthest corner of the universe. No time for his dying Sheryl.

[magnuskn]

Or maybe "Yes, he did come back, as indicated by Kawamori in an interview after the movie".

[karice67]

And as the person who translated all those interviews and comments, here's what I know:

Kawamori has never said that Alto came back, in any interview thus far. All he has said is that it's up to fans to imagine the future of the characters for themselves.

[Syaokura]

I think Alto is alive somewhere, if the way Sheryl's earring glittered in the ending credits is any indication. IDK

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by karice67

And as the person who translated all those interviews and comments, here's what I know:

Kawamori has never said that Alto came back, in any interview thus far. All he has said is that it's up to fans to imagine the future of the characters for themselves.

There goes your argument, magnuskn.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by karice67

And as the person who translated all those interviews and comments, here's what I know:

Kawamori has never said that Alto came back, in any interview thus far. All he has said is that it's up to fans to imagine the future of the characters for themselves.

Wait, what? So, the reports that he said he was surprised that fans were unsure what happened to Alto was fake? The hell?

[Dash_Hunter]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Wait, what? So, the reports that he said he was surprised that fans were unsure what happened to Alto was fake? The hell?

He was surprised that people thought that Alto died, but he never states that he definitely comes back.
In that interview, article or whatever you want to call it the most he did was to give a "hint" pointing at the scene in the credits and saying "I think you can imagine the rest".

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Dash_Hunter

He was surprised that people thought that Alto died, but he never states that he definitely comes back.
In that interview, article or whatever you want to call it the most he did was to give a "hint" pointing at the scene in the credits and saying "I think you can imagine the rest".

Thank you for saving me from having to say it again.

[magnuskn]

Yeah, I just went hunting for karice's translation in this thread ( 20 pages of searching ) and I've found the relevant section:

シェリルの目覚めについて
「実はそれに似た話は実際に聞くんですよ（苦笑）アルトがフォールドしたあたりから胸がいっぱ いになって、 何か見ているのに見えていない。本編を2回、3回と繰り返し観ているうちにわかってきた、とい う方もいるそ うです。エンドロールに登場するキャラクター達にもヒントがあるので、彼らの“その後”がきっ と想像できる と思いますよ！」

Re: Sheryl's awakening (NB: the setup for these comments is a conversation between a young lady and her butler after teatime. For this one, the butler comments along the lines of 'My lady, you really missed the hint at the end, didn't you? It may be because you just saw it once...' which then leads into Kawamori's comment)
"I've actually been hearing of similar experiences (wry smile). After seeing Alto disappear, [with the shock from that], they didn't see it even though they did actually see it. After seeing the film a second or third time, they realised. There's also a hint in the characters that appear in the credits, so I think you can imagine what happened to them afterwards."

I think the wording is actually pretty clear in that he returns, but that is of course left to interpretation. Unless the original wording is not as strong as karice made it sound here in the translation.

Here is one more hint from the interview with Risa Ebata:

Kawamori: For this, please think about what Ranka says in the epilogue, and watch the (small) video that plays during the ending. There’s a hint there, something of an answer. It seems that a lot of people unexpectedly missed that cut in the excitement [of their first viewing]. Even though we** made it disproportionately long (laughs).

So I think the hints are pretty clear in which direction they point.

Also, deja vú.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Besides us knowing that Alto will return one day, thanks to Kawamori, Ranka pretty much already knew in the movie that it wouldn't work out, IMO. And when she was rejected at her confession, she took it surprisingly well.

Originally Posted by Dash_Hunter

Well, Kawamori didn't say it directly (and most likely he will never do it) but it's hinted, at least that's something, right?.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

As far as I am aware, he pretty much outfront stated that he was confused that people thought the ending bittersweet. Yeah, he never outright said "Alto is coming back", but you'd have to deliberately want to misunderstand if you couldn't take the hint.

Originally Posted by karice67

I'd have to agree with Dash that it's just a hint.

Kawamori only stated that he was confused that people thought that Alto had died. He clarified that he'd folded, but whatever happens from then on is up to everyone's imagination.

If you take into account what the three of them say at the start of the film, it really could go either way. And I think everyone should make up their own minds about it.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

To each his own.

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

I didn't think he died. But whether or not he came back... when? I think they should have shown him sneaking in to see Sheryl and her opening her eyes. At least something!!

Originally Posted by Heibi

The fact that Sheryl wakes up and the her and Ranka have a concert means Alto came back. Notice the final scene of Sheryl in the credit box. Her mouth moves and the earring shines.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Pretty much that.

Originally Posted by Dash_Hunter

This is the most logical conclusion, or at least the one that I have seen most people to come to.

While I agree with Karice that it's up to the viewer's interpretation, it's not like Kawamori would point out those hints, or even put them in the movie without some purpose.
And he didn't talk about them just in that animedia article, in the interview from the "Kiss in the Galaxy" manga he even goes into further detail, saying that people need to put attention to what ranka says in the epilogue and to that little video in the credits in which apparently even the order of the scenes has some kind of meaning (I still don't get it though ).

Other example are the two little hints from the "Sheryl Visual Collection final", the first one is that image of Sheryl waking up with Alto, and the other the ending of the "A Day in Alcatraz" story.
I know these are more fanservice than hints, or that they are not as important as what it's in the movie or what Kawamori says, but the point is that the possibility is there and is high, and it's not just some fanfiction conclusion made up by fans.

Originally Posted by karice67

I took all of that into account too when writing my previous post. On the other hand, the skits in the 'Merry Christmas Without You' concert are rather...ambiguous... Admittedly, that concert took place before the film was completed...but still...

Either way, I still think it's something that people can and should decide for themselves, rather than the rest of us trying to persuade them one way or the other.

To put it another way, if anyone asks me precisely what I think via VM or PM, I'm happy to tell. But I'm not putting it on the forum.

[karice67]

The hints are about Alto surviving and Sheryl waking up. NOT about Alto coming back. (edit: the comments in context)

I'm happy with each viewer forming their own interpretation of what happens, and if people interpret Kawamori's comments to mean that Alto (probably) came back.

But please don't imply that Kawamori outright SAID or even indicated that he definitely came back.

Because that's simply not true. "Said" and "definitely" being the operative words.