[Anime] Umineko - Spoilers & Expectations (for experienced VN readers only)

[momobunny]

It's not really a panty shot when you're outfit is basically a bathing suit with a bunch of decorations. =P

Looks like they updated the anime site, now the people who don't know much but visit the site will know that Kyrie isn't Battler's mom and that he has a younger half sibling (Ange's picture isn't there, but there's something there in her place... same goes for Asumu and Maria's father). It's not really the best way to let the fans know about them... but I guess it's better than nothing. I just like the new character layout better than having them all on one page. ^^;

[Ithekro]

Interesting question. In the anime we see Kinzo talking to Natsuhi, plus several other things that have been put forth as being false scenes. How will that be explained if Kinzo is already deadm or Kanon or Shannon don't really exist?

[Rias]

Seeing Kanon and Shannon together -> same as Fight Club? Point is, Battler still havn't seen them both at the same time.

Kinzo scenes -> various theories are around.

(Perhaps it's been discussed before) What I've noticed is that Nanjo said "I was playing chess with Kinzo" when Rosa asked if anyone lend Maria her umbrella...

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Interesting question. In the anime we see Kinzo talking to Natsuhi, plus several other things that have been put forth as being false scenes. How will that be explained if Kinzo is already deadm or Kanon or Shannon don't really exist?

That's where the fantasy element mixes with the mystery element. If Kinzo was already dead then how in the world did Natsuhi see him in the study and talk to him? How can people like Genji and Nanjo claim to have spoken and saw him, even though he's already dead?

[Freelii]

Regarding the status of Kinzo as defined in Episode 4, possibilities include:

Spoiler for Episodes 1, 3, 4:

1. Natsuhi suffers from delusions and complains of headaches. Supposedly in Episode 3, Eva was suffering from a headache and sleeping in a room with Hideyoshi, when she was actually outside killing some people. Therefore, Natsuhi only imagined she spoke with Kinzo.

2. Natsuhi's conversation with Kinzo was a flashback to when he was alive, and simply by standing at his door, she was able to recall the conversation and regain her resolve. This might also be supported by the fact that Kinzo's clock was at 10'o'clock, whereas the episode clock a few scenes later claimed it wasn't even 9'o'clock yet, indicating that time is different inside Kinzo's room. If I remember correctly, there was also the piece of paper Eva stuck in the door indicated Kinzo's door was never opened(?). Did that happen before or after Natsuhi's "talk" with Kinzo?

3. Episode 4 supposes that someone can acquire the name of Kinzo. Natsuhi really did speak to Kinzo (the new one), Nanjo really did play chess with Kinzo (the new one). Old Kinzo can still be submerged in embalming fluid, waiting to be thrown in the furnace, and no one is lying when they say they've interacted with Kinzo.

Some of those reasons can be twisted to apply to Rosa in Episode 2 as well, although we aren't anywhere near that with the anime adaptation.

[lovelysan]

Originally Posted by Rias

(Perhaps it's been discussed before) What I've noticed is that Nanjo said "I was playing chess with Kinzo" when Rosa asked if anyone lend Maria her umbrella...

When I was watching the epsiode that gave me a "0_0 OH MY GOD!" moment myself. Suspicious, suspicious... (of course, that opens up possibilities of Nanjo-Beatice. Which is uh, not pleasant . )

Originally Posted by Freelii

Possibilities include:

Spoiler for Episodes 1, 3, 4:

1. Natsuhi suffers from delusions and complains of headaches. Supposedly in Episode 3, Eva was suffering from a headache and sleeping in a room with Hideyoshi, when she was actually outside killing some people. Therefore, Natsuhi only imagined she spoke with Kinzo.

2. Natsuhi's conversation with Kinzo was a flashback to when he was alive, and simply by standing at his door, she was able to recall the conversation and regain her resolve. This might also be supported by the fact that Kinzo's clock was at 10'o'clock, whereas the episode clock a few scenes later claimed it wasn't even 9'o'clock yet, indicating that time is different inside Kinzo's room. If I remember correctly, there was also the piece of paper Eva stuck in the door indicated Kinzo's door was never opened(?). Did that happen before or after Natsuhi's "talk" with Kinzo?

3. Episode 4 supposes that someone can acquire the name of Kinzo. Natsuhi really did speak to Kinzo (the new one), Nanjo really did play chess with Kinzo (the new one). Old Kinzo can still be submerged in embalming fluid, waiting to be thrown in the furnace, and no one is lying when they say they've interacted with Kinzo.

Some of those reasons can be twisted to apply to Rosa in Episode 2 as well, although we aren't anywhere near that with the anime adaptation.

Ooooh, I like possibility number 2.

Anyhoo, after episode 4, I thought about the scene and for a while I though that maybe....

Spoiler for theory which doesn't work:

....the person Natsuhi actually spoke too was Krauus. Because future episodes show that Krauss IS actually fond of Natsuhi, and he's probably (somewhat) tough with her around the other siblings 1- to get her to NOT fight with Eva who tends to take any oppertunity to pick on her and 2- Natsuhi actually does have a tendecy to overreact at times ^^;.


Of course, in order for the Krauss theory to work he uh, needs to NOT be dead ^^;. And missing half his face seems to guarantee he was dead at that point....

[Ithekro]

Visual media changes things a bit doesn't it? When things are from our point of view rather than words on a screen.

But then there was "USO DA!" and K1's whole perception of things in the first Higurashi arc. Not like it will be the first or last time we've needed mental filters to see things as they really are.

Edit:
Question: If Beatrice is suppose to not be real, what chances do any of the shippers have of a Battler x Beatrice ending?
But Beatrice is suppose to be somebody...except everyone on the island (so far) is related or one of the servents. Just how is that suppose to work anyway?

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

The VN didn't exactly describe the size of them, but since it must be noticeable from afar (since no one would ever check the shed prior the discrovery of the sigil), it is very likely they had to be that large (covering the whole surface).
It was the same for the manga as well.

You can expect a very large symbol on Eva's room as well.

There goes the "Maria paints the magic circles" theory. It's really not credible that she's the one responsible for them anymore...

[Marion]

As far as the magic circles go, obviously someone took the time to paint them. It wasn't rushed or anything.

[Alaya]

Originally Posted by Marion

As far as the magic circles go, obviously someone took the time to paint them. It wasn't rushed or anything.

It would be rushed for Eva's room, unless we are trolled in that scene.
If that scene is actually tell us the truth, then someone might make a paper template, put it on the door and spray it with red color.

Now the episode should at least finish with second twilight. I saw many people suspecting Eva and Hideyoshi so this might prove to be a blow for them. And considering the lock room too.

Well, I hope not many people will get trolled enough at the end of EP1 and decide to drop Umineko...

[Ithekro]

Well probably half the viewers that haven't read the VNs are Higurashi viewers. They will at least expect the restart "hey why are they all alive again?" part. The rest will still be spinning from Meta/Tea Party time if that is shown. After that...who knows?

[Freelii]

Originally Posted by Alaya

Now the episode should at least finish with second twilight. I saw many people suspecting Eva and Hideyoshi so this might prove to be a blow for them. And considering the lock room too.

Actually, this is something I noticed watching the anime, and might explain some of the cuts and decisions they've made for production.

Spoiler for Major events from Episode 1:

Right up to discovering the bodies in the shed, Krauss is one of the most suspicious people. Not only was he able to deflect all the sibling's accusations, but lay down some accusations of his own. Next, he reveals a gold bar to Natsuhi. The way the anime does this leaves the implication that he might know where the gold is. Suddenly, he has a motive to kill everyone in order to stop anyone from finding the gold, especially after the letter from Beatrice states that anyone who finds the gold will be the next heir.

...and then he's a corpse in the shed. But if you've been paying attention, Eva and Hideyoshi weren't even shown during the midnight montage of whereabouts. That's suspicious! Not only that, but Eva doesn't seem all that distraught about what's in the shed. Fast forward a bit and now Eva and Hideyoshi are dead.

Who discovered their room? Genji and Kanon. So you have 2, or maybe 3 suspects on your mind now. Kanon and Genji have been running around together most of the day, and Kinzo is nowhere to be found. It would be natural to suspect all 3. Buuuut then Kanon is found dead (along with Kinzo) by Kumasawa.

Now the viewer is going "waaait a second, are the writers pulling a fast one?" Now it's time to suspect the butler, doctor, and old lady.... who are subsequently exiled and found dead.

...and suddenly, the people whom you really didn't want to suspect (with the exception of Natsuhi maybe) are the only people left alive.

TLDR Version: Everyone you suddenly start suspecting is most likely the next one to get knocked off, right up until the end. It's one of the things I loved about Episode 1.

[Jan-Poo]

the interesting thing about this episode1-2 anime version is that "as I expected" Battler doesn't see Shannon in the shed. I don't think it was a mere case. The "Battler never sees both Kanon and Shannon at the same time" theory still holds.

While I'm certainly not sure about the shkannon theory, I'm pretty sure about that part, I just need to understan why @_@;

[Alaya]

Originally Posted by Freelii

Actually, this is something I noticed watching the anime, and might explain some of the cuts and decisions they've made for production.

Spoiler for Major events from Episode 1:

Right up to discovering the bodies in the shed, Krauss is one of the most suspicious people. Not only was he able to deflect all the sibling's accusations, but lay down some accusations of his own. Next, he reveals a gold bar to Natsuhi. The way the anime does this leaves the implication that he might know where the gold is. Suddenly, he has a motive to kill everyone in order to stop anyone from finding the gold, especially after the letter from Beatrice states that anyone who finds the gold will be the next heir.

...and then he's a corpse in the shed. But if you've been paying attention, Eva and Hideyoshi weren't even shown during the midnight montage of whereabouts. That's suspicious! Not only that, but Eva doesn't seem all that distraught about what's in the shed. Fast forward a bit and now Eva and Hideyoshi are dead.

Who discovered their room? Genji and Kanon. So you have 2, or maybe 3 suspects on your mind now. Kanon and Genji have been running around together most of the day, and Kinzo is nowhere to be found. It would be natural to suspect all 3. Buuuut then Kanon is found dead (along with Kinzo) by Kumasawa.

Now the viewer is going "waaait a second, are the writers pulling a fast one?" Now it's time to suspect the butler, doctor, and old lady.... who are subsequently exiled and found dead.

...and suddenly, the people whom you really didn't want to suspect (with the exception of Natsuhi maybe) are the only people left alive.

TLDR Version: Everyone you suddenly start suspecting is most likely the next one to get knocked off, right up until the end. It's one of the things I loved about Episode 1.

Spoiler for Spoilerz:

And Natsuhi is shot to dead in the end too. In front of Beatrice picture!!! And golden butterflies!!!

If Natsuhi is found dead right before the cut, when resume if DEEN shows those cousins + Shkanon drinking tea happily in purgatory, they might go WTF!? And then come Beatrice...

Oh wow, people will get mind-raped pretty soon enough. I guess there might be some dropping when Beatrice shows up then, if DEEN does not execute it properly...

[Teapot]

I'm just watching for the sake of seeing and hearing a few particular scenes, and because seeing animated versions of Battler and Beatrice's fights could be awe inspiring.

We've already played the games, right? Let's just enjoy what we can out of it while we wait for Episode 5.

[Wafflemania]

Originally Posted by Alaya

Oh wow, people will get mind-raped pretty soon enough. I guess there might be some dropping when Beatrice shows up then, if DEEN does not execute it properly...

hahaha i am really looking forward to the mindrape scenes... i love watching new viewers go WTF?! (but im very glad they like the show so far even if its cut like a turkey)

[Alaya]

Originally Posted by Wafflemania

hahaha i am really looking forward to the mindrape scenes... i love watching new viewers go WTF?! (but im very glad they like the show so far even if its cut like a turkey)

lol, I think we have the same taste then

I guess that how Beatrice feels when she tortured Battler

[Jan-Poo]

Uhm I want to express my opinion about that scene in ep2 when Maria reads the letter. There was a little debate on the ep2 thread about the music "犯行の予告状読み上げ" (beside can someone transliterate this in romaji?).

First I must say that imho this is absolutely the best scene in Ep1, and one of the best scenes overall, and I'm 100% sure if it wasn't for that song it wouldn't have been as memorable to me.

However even before the anime was aired I expressed my doubts about a good rendition. In particular I thought that if this scene was placed at the start of an episode then it would lose its flavor. And that's exactly what happened. For such a scene to be really effective it must be placed at the end. Considering this new development it was inevitable that a few changes had to be made, and one of them unfortunately was the music.

Now the reason I think the music in the novel was absolutely great, it's because I don't see this as a scene full of tension, it's something completely different and a lot greater than that.
Until this very point in the novel Beatrice was just a legend, sure Maria said that Beatrice gave her an umbrella, but that was just the fantasy of a little girl (and this is where ep1 kinda failed by showing that shape). In other word this scene is a passing point. This is where the certainty of the adult world is getting crushed by the fantasies of a little girl. That letter was a declaration of war from the fantasy world to the real world. It isn't horror, it isn't mystery, it's fantasy. A world of witches and magic that suddenly materializes in the real world, in front of everyone with (almost) undeniable proof. Once you see the envelope and the seal you can't dismiss it anymore as a mere child play, it's really, something is going on and the witch herself is pushing forward a challenge. In such regard a music like "犯行の予告状読み上げ" was perfect because it has that "tim burton nightmare before christmas" flavor, because it is a song that projects you in a world of distorced fantasy where witches ghosts magics and all that is spooky in a childish way exist.

But this would never work at the start of an episode, and not after being exposed directly to the witch's presence. So changing the music was inevitable, it would have been very odd otherwise. Now if the introduction was made of 2 episodes and the last one finished with this scene, that would have been perfect! But in that case the first time viewer wouldn't be that satisfied after seeing a first episode of pure introduction.

Now I don't want you to get me wrong. I gave 9 to this second episode so you can say I'm satisfied so far. Certainly it could be better but I didn't expect a masterpiece from Deen.

[nagare]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Uhm I want to express my opinion about that scene in ep2 when Maria reads the letter. There was a little debate on the ep2 thread about the music "犯行の予告状読み上げ" (beside can someone transliterate this in romaji?).

Sorry, not fully understanding. Transliterate?
Do you just want the romaji? Hankou no yokokujyou yomiage
Translates to: Reading out loud the Advance Notice Letter of the Crime

[izmosmolnar]

Posting it here as I'm not sure what counts as a spoiler again.

By the way, I started to think that the family-relation between Battler and Kyrie (or even his tense relation with Rudolf) is going to be revealed later, so they deliberately skipped that part. And by that (as it's going to be animated later) it kinda counts as a spoiler, because we are revealing a future "twist" even though the game covered it 5 minutes into Episode1.
Which means that telling the connection between Battler and Kyrie is -in a certain way- spoiling first time viewers. (At least my friend was a bit angry on me for revealing that. He said: "then why are you revealing future things happening to me now, if it's going to be implemented later?". And he's right actually, when I said: "because the game covered it upon the introduction" it sounded kinda lame to answer that, and he really couldn't care when did they implemented it in the game. So I reckon, we shouldn't be hasty telling such things IMHO, regardless where do they are placed in the game.)
If the anime would let's say... skip the second twilight for example and just go with the third before that due to whatever insane decision, then would we reveal it like: "Actually that was where Hideyoshi and Eva supposed to die, but looks like the anime is delaying it for now after the third."? I know it's unlikely, and almost impossible without changing the story, but I feel as if it's almost essentially the same.
Surely we don't need to reveal what's Battler's and Kyrie's relation with each other to enjoy game Episode1 animated. However by telling it now, the first time viewers are not going to be surprised about that when the anime is going to implement these subtle family relations. It may be a trivial thing for us vn players, but I easily imagine that's going to be a future twist later on for the anime viewers.