Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 19 Discussion / Poll

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

Would someone mind clarifying the rules behind the blue text Battler is now able to use? The anime didn't really explain it in a comprehensible way for me. =/

Welll I will try. But it's not like I know more than what the anime said.

The catch is that you need to use the blue in a way that will destroy the adversary's thesis. In this case Battler needs to use the blue to deny witches and magic.

Since Beatrice is compelled to counter all the blue texts, someone once proposed this way for Battler to win:

Witches exist!

Beatrice can't counter that, because witches existing is exactly her thesis. She won't deny witches in red.
But this thing can't be said in blue. I guess that with this example you can understand why this rule is needed.

To make another example. Let's take the chapel closed room.

Battler can say:

There are two keys that can open the chapel's door, this way this isn't closed room at all

This work, because with this hypothesis you can explain this mystery without magic. Then Beatrice will obviously counter with:

Only one key to the chapel exists!

But let us take the closed room of Eva and Hideyoshi in Ep1 and let's say Battler will try to say this:

The culprit has one master key so that's how he closed the door!

This wouldn't work. Because this doesn't explain the mystery at all. The room was closed with a chain, so even if the culprit has a key, you can't explain how he did it.

[SilverSyko]

So basiclly, while red text can only tell the truth, blue text confirms the existance of an alternate possiblity that the crime could be commited?

That's what I'm getting.

[k//eternal]

Blue text is basically for theories that potentially counter the existence of witches.

[Jan-Poo]

Well I wouldn't use the word "confirm", but the blue text is meant to be used for the purpose of proposing alternative possibilities which must be in opposition to the adversary's thesis.

For example if Beatrice's thesis is: "I did it with magic". Battler must explain a way for someone to do that with "human tricks", he cant' say "Virgilia did it with magic". Even if this is different from what Beatrice sated it still doesn't deny witches and magic.

[Proto]

The catch with blue truths is that the witch is forced to counter every one of them with red truths before of the end of the game, she can't escape by saying 'I refuse' like she has been doing before. This is the advantage Battler gains.

[SilverSyko]

If that's the case I find it kind of weird that the counter-thesis needs to be even blue at all.

I mean Battler's been doing it normally for the first 3 arcs so why all of the sudden is this "blue text" pushed upon us?

EDIT: Ah thank you Proto, nevermind then.

[Proto]

As i mentioned, the witch can no longer indefinitely escape refusing to reply. She must find a counter before the end of the game, or concede defeat in that particular point.

[orangejuicetang]

What does Beato gain from giving Battler the blue truth though? I can't see any advantage she gets out of this.

[FlareKnight]

Damn this episode was over before I noticed. One of the rare times I just kept focused on what was going on and then was surprised by the ending starting. It's a good thing Ange is around since Battler needs something to get him fired up. This isn't just some game. Your up against an enemy and need to go full tilt to run them down.

Surprised she didn't say anything about her identity and instead went with a codename. Suppose she wants him to focus on this fight instead of who she is. Although might be she just doesn't want to show him how she has changed. Though does he seriously have no idea? I mean same eyes, hair, and quote that apparently is a family trait.

Certainly her life was as rough as I was expecting. Was treated coldly by Eva and had a difficult time at school as well. Considering the whole jumping off buildings thing she probably didn't care much about what happened to herself. All that mattered was finding out what happened to her family. If she couldn't have that then she had no more reason to stay alive. I'm not much of a cat person but the Bernkastel cat was pretty cute .

Just great though. Add another level of complexity with the blue. I still think the best strategy is to beat Beatrice over the head with a table until she gives up . Hopefully the Battler and Ange duo can do this. I'm just saying right now, not going to fall for the same thing twice. Any sympathetic expressions from Beatrice will be strictly ignored. Time to stay firm and resolute.

On a side note, Okonogi!?!? What the hell is he doing here? Now there's a face I didn't expect to see....Don't know if this is just a hahaha thing or means something even more devious is going on.

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

What does Beato gain from giving Battler the blue truth though? I can't see any advantage she gets out of this.

Well, imagine you're playing a game against someone where you're always bound to win because the rules are stacked hard. That'd get pretty boring, right?

It's not entirely clear at this point, but that's one possible motive.

[orangejuicetang]

But didn't Lambadelta literally just give Beatrice a lecture/threat about playing more seriously?

[golthin]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

What does Beato gain from giving Battler the blue truth though? I can't see any advantage she gets out of this.

well I am going to quote what Jan-Poo posted...

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I dunno if the anime said it but this came with a price.

Before this, Battler could only lose if he accepted witches, which means even in a situation like Episode2 where he didn't understand a thing, he could still manage to avoid a loss by stubbornly denying witches.

With the introduction of blue it was stated that in case Battler doesn't manage to explain ALL the mysteries he loses

so basically, even if Battler lost the game, he could be stubborn and deny the existance of witches, as he has been doing all the time in the previous 3 games. Now he has to win or lose, not more stubborness.
So he now can lose even if he doesn't accept that witches exist. That is the price he pays.

[Arkwright]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

So now Beatrice isn't going to state any red truth, i.e. isn't going to give any hint about the game. Then in the end she counters Battler's blue truths in a way he probably won't predict. At that point Battler will have only one minute to think about another strategy.

Frankly I don't think it was a nice trade off. This is the result of Ange's trying to rush things to reach a fast conclusion. Except Battler doesn't even know the rules of the game, and if the game is bound the end soon he's pretty much fucked up.

I don't think I would call it a bad trade off.

Before the blue truth, he only knows of a way to lose: he accepts witches. He didn't really have any win condition at all to work with. So even if his "lose condition" becomes considerably larger, any win condition is better than none.

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

But didn't Lambadelta literally just give Beatrice a lecture/threat about playing more seriously?

Well, it was probably to the point where, with Ange's guidance, Battler would just have not bothered to participate if she didn't throw him a bone. She doesn't particularly want to be playing the game forever and get nowhere either.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

With the introduction of blue it was stated that in case Battler doesn't manage to explain ALL the mysteries he loses:

I don't think she's talking about the entire game, just about the one they are playing at that time.

Originally Posted by Arkwright

He didn't really have any win condition at all to work with.

He's always had one. He has to prove the whole deal was done by humans. Once he does that, he wins.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Used Can

He's always had one. He has to prove the whole deal was done by humans. Once he does that, he wins.

He doesn't even need to do that. He just needs to prove that magic didn't do it in any way.

[Arkwright]

Originally Posted by Used Can

He's always had one. He has to prove the whole deal was done by humans. Once he does that, he wins.

That becomes a somewhat hopeless proposition now, though, since

a.) Beatrice refuses to narrow anything down for him
b.) His side isn't allowed to summon witnesses to help investigate the truth, and it's not likely every mystery will be solvable by digging for convenient physical evidence.

It's just like any random one of us watchers/readers trying to "prove" a theory by ourselves, we and Battler are basically in the same boat if we can't interact with the creator/get confirmation in red.

[Shamisen]

I'm sure they'll change up the opening as the story progresses.

Also, the beginning does kind of drag out a bit in the VN but they better not cut out Maria's past.

Spoiler for 4:

It's so touching.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Marion

He doesn't even need to do that. He just needs to prove that magic didn't do it in any way.

Well, yes, although humans are the simplest thing to use. All the same, I'm sure there can be ways to avoid using them, like talking about the use of traps, and things like that. But anyway, you're right, my bad.

Originally Posted by Arkwright

That becomes a somewhat hopeless proposition now, though, since

a.) Beatrice refuses to narrow anything down for him
b.) His side isn't allowed to summon witnesses to help investigate the truth, and it's not likely every mystery will be solvable by digging for convenient physical evidence.

It's just like any random one of us watchers/readers trying to "prove" a theory by ourselves, we and Battler are basically in the same boat if we can't interact with the creator/get confirmation in red.

I'd say things have been kept narrowing down ever since the red was introduced. Anyway, for most of it, that's how things are. Anyway, my point still stands, he had a winning condition from the very beginning.

[TheForsaken]

What I noticed in this episode:

Spoiler for Kuwadorian:

Spoiler for The house where young Beato and Virgilia appeared:

[Arbane the Terrible]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Surprised she didn't say anything about her identity and instead went with a codename. Suppose she wants him to focus on this fight instead of who she is.

I think it's to keep Battler focussed. He's had a hard enough time coping with witches and magic--adding time-travel to this list might be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

I'm not much of a cat person but the Bernkastel cat was pretty cute .

Bernkatsel?

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Just great though. Add another level of complexity with the blue. I still think the best strategy is to beat Beatrice over the head with a table until she gives up . Hopefully the Battler and Ange duo can do this. I'm just saying right now, not going to fall for the same thing twice. Any sympathetic expressions from Beatrice will be strictly ignored. Time to stay firm and resolute.

The Blue Words at least will cut down on the "repeat it in red!" scenes.

Amusingly, when Beato first shows up in the SN, she does seem to be genuinely worried that she'd crushed Battler's spirits a little _too_ hard, but that might be just because she needs him to keep the game going.

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

On a side note, Okonogi!?!? What the hell is he doing here? Now there's a face I didn't expect to see....Don't know if this is just a hahaha thing or means something even more devious is going on.

Might just be a shout-out to Higurashi...or possibly, after getting tossed out of the conspiracy, he went into the family business? Or maybe it's an alternate-reality version who never joined the military....