Byakugan, Sharingan & Rinnengan

[Goshin]

your right about the sight reducing tactics, as seen in the zabuza arc, sharingran loses its effectivess if it doesn't make doesn't make eye contact. or can't see for that matter. unless sharingran has X-ray vision byakugan would be a great adavantage

imagine a byakugan wtih water justsu ---> does hidden mist justsu and activates byakugan, he can clearly see through mist thanks x-ray. big adavantage if you ask me

about sharingran not having good arguments it doesn't need one the author designed to be a powerhouse and dwarf other bloodlines. uchiha fans don't really need arguments.

[tatami]

Originally Posted by Goshin

your right about the sight reducing tactics, as seen in the zabuza arc, sharingran loses its effectivess if it doesn't make doesn't make eye contact. or can't see for that matter. unless sharingran has X-ray vision byakugan would be a great adavantage

imagine a byakugan wtih water justsu ---> does hidden mist justsu and activates byakugan, he can clearly see through mist thanks x-ray. big adavantage if you ask me

about sharingran not having good arguments it doesn't need one the author designed to be a powerhouse and dwarf other bloodlines. uchiha fans don't really need arguments.

well its actually wrong,the mist will only work for genjutsu...
sharingan can see chakra as colors (wtf?)...

[Goshin]

Originally Posted by tatami

well its actually wrong,the mist will only work for genjutsu...
sharingan can see chakra as colors (wtf?)...

well that already decreases the effectivness of one aspect of the abilty. the argumentwas not that it can completely neutralize the the sharingran powers but decrease its effectiveness so non-gods can have a fighting chance. I know its farfetched they should have a "Way to Counter Sharingran thread" so people can find some weakness to the hax (hopefully kishi would read and get some good ideas)

[vision55]

Originally Posted by Keroko

... care to tell me why it is a weak argument? Yes, there are ways to overcome sight reducing obstacles, but your argument of 'pretty much every Sharingan user' is flawed seeing as to how there are only four left of which we have yet to see one in action, one who has yet to do anything except genjutsu and Kage Bunshin, and one who has yet to show any counter to this whatsoever. If we start counting all the Uchiha that lived, then I really want to see your proof that most sharingan users could overcome this problem.

Also, your argument saying "Neji wouldn't do this" is, ironically, really weak. We are not comparing specific ninja, we are comparing bloodlines. If a Byakugan user were to limit the sight of the Sharingan, the Byakugan user would have a major advantage, as the Sharingan would be rendered completely useless, and the user at a double disadvantage concidering the Hyuuga specialize in close combat..



So Sharingan being useless when the sight is limited and the Hyuuga's obvious advantage in close combat are not good arguments to you?

You haven't even given a good argument as to why the Sharingan is better.

Spoiler for manga:

yeah your baby powder argument is weak.....i mean that goes for everyone in a general fight "limit their sight and then attack"...what makes that so ground breaking...and informative?

Look at it this way: Take the strongest of each blood line at their prime, Madara and Neji's father or Uncle. Madara had eternal MS and control of the Nine tails *and don't give me summons are not part of his sharingan* because we know otherwise....the Byakugan representative pales in comparison.

You certainly can have your opinion thats cool. But I will just leave it at this: as I mentioned a long time ago the Uchihas were the strongest clan in the leaf village and they were even labeled as the police of the village...and the Byakugan people were the second strongest for a reason.

[james0246]

We do not know a lot about the adult Hyuuga clan members. Not only could there be a summon within the clan, there could also be several clan jutsu, as well as a variety of extra techniques, etc. that we simply do not know yet. Added to that, if there is a Part III and IV, I think it is entirely possible for there to exist an 'evolution' of the Byukagan.

That being said, the current Byakugan appears to be weaker than the evolved Sharingan. They probably tie in regards to taijutsu, I have no idea how genjutsu is perceived, and we do not know what ninjutsu the Hyuuga clan has or which users used them. And, both eyes look a little disgusting when activated.

btw, can anyone explain to me how the Hyuuga were not used for the police force. I mean their 360 degree vision makes them perfect for stopping or preventing crimes or finding unsavory characters.

btw, vision55, whether or not the Sharingan

Spoiler for slight Manga spoiler:

can suppress or control the Kyuubi

is slightly irrelavant to the discussion at hand. No Hyuuga possess the Kyuubi nor will the Kyuubi some how get out of its cell and aid

Spoiler for slight Manga spoiler:

Madara

in a fight, added to that there is a simple complex seal that can be used to stop the Kyuubi once again. So, leave the kyuubi alone (what did it ever do to you ) and just focus on the Sharingan abilities at hand (enhanced Genjutsu, copying abilities, and possibly 3 unique jutsu that only evolved Sharingans have.)

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by tatami

well its actually wrong,the mist will only work for genjutsu...
sharingan can see chakra as colors (wtf?)...

The fight against Zabuza showed us that mist does render the Sharingan completely useless.

Originally Posted by vision55

yeah your baby powder argument is weak.....i mean that goes for everyone in a general fight "limit their sight and then attack"...what makes that so ground breaking...and informative?

The fact that the Sharingan can be countered in such a simple way already shows that its not as all mighty as you seem to believe. You said it yourself, 'that goes for everyone' everyone except the Byakugan user, who would simply close his eyes, activate his Byakugan and see through whatever is blocking his sight. The sharingan user can't do this, and is completely helpless once his precious eyes are cut of.

Originally Posted by vision55

Spoiler for manga:

Look at it this way: Take the strongest of each blood line at their prime, Madara and Neji's father or Uncle. Madara had eternal MS and control of the Nine tails *and don't give me summons are not part of his sharingan* because we know otherwise....

the Byakugan representative pales in comparison.

True, the Mangekyou makes the Byakugan pale in comparison. I never argued that (heck, I agreed to it if you had bothered to read) But how many Uchiha actually achieved it?

Spoiler for manga:

By my latest count that was three. Four

if you count Kakashi, and his Mangekyou is not even that great. By comparison, there are many more Hyuuga who can achieve the full potential of their own bloodline (which also has the advantage of not needing seemingly life-threatening situations to unlock) The greater number of Uchiha never achieved the Mangekyou.

if you had bothered to read my post, you'd have noticed that I was comparing the normal sharingan, as in the one that 99,99% of the Uchiha had as in the one that does not require one to go psycho and kill your best friend

Spoiler for manga:

and brother.

Pretty hefty requirements, combined with the 'must be in danger to unlock.' These elements also serve on the balance of which of the two is better.

To summarize:

Sharingan: Is troublesome to unlock, but powerfull once it is. Allows one to copy and track movements. Can see through genjutsu. Can see chakra. Has a h4xx-mode with ridiculous requirements, and renders the user blind

Spoiler for manga:

unless another ridiculous requirement is met.

Can be countered with basic techniques, and practiced Taijutsu. If the user can't see, he's helpless.

Byakugan: Unlocked seemingly at birth, can be made stronger with training. 360 degree vision and far-sight. Can see through genjutsu. Can see chakra. Can see through virtually anything. Allow the use of techniques that seal of tenketsu. Has a small blind-spot which can only be discovered through highly situational circumstances (not everyone has sticky webbing to pin the Hyuuga in place and the abillity to attack 360 degrees. On the other hand, every ninja caries smoke bombs) and has many ways to cover for said blind spot. No haxx-modes we are aware of.

In general combat, the advantage of the Byakugan is massive. The sharingan, on the other hands, relies on very, no wait, extremely rare conditions to be able to overpower it.

[Adediran242]

@_@ vs. O_O

Sorry, I know it's pointless, but I saw it in sombody's sig and I thought it was teh shizz!

[vision55]

I am sorry for not putting spoilers earlier.

Spoiler for Manga Spoilers:

- Remind me who own on the bridge...? Ahhh thats right the sharingan overcame the baby powder made of mist....it's just like the byukugan: "they know they have a weak spot in their 360 degree vision but they know how to counter it."

- Yes I did read but I only mentioned all the other variants of the Sharningan because the thread said byukugan vs. Sharingan, and not byukugan vs. Sharingan not including all other levels. I have to take into account the heights a person can take thier blood line limit....and as we can see Sharingan can take it very high....If you were just comparing byukugan vs. first level sharingan it is like comparing....a jetta vs. a porshe that was only alowed to go to second gear.....what I am trying to say you have to take thier powers as a whole and you cannot just stop when ever it fits your argument.

- Are you seriously arguing that the sharingan is hard to unlock so therefore the best bet is the byukugan. First of all the thread says byukugan vs. Sharingan and not byukugan and if you are lucky enough to achive Sharingan. Secondly like you said "The greater number of Uchiha never achieved the Mangekyou." but still they were still able to be the strongest clan in the leaf.

[Keroko]

I'm asuming that the people who come here to discuss have a full understanding of the who's and what of the Narutoverse in terms of progress. Why else would they come to a thread that dives into the details of the Narutoverse?

Originally Posted by vision55

- Remind me who own on the bridge...? Ahhh thats right the sharingan overcame the baby powder made of mist....it's just like the byukugan: "they know they have a weak spot in their 360 degree vision but they know how to counter it."

Actually, it was Kakashi that overcame the mist. He said it himself that his Sharingan was useless. Did he use his Sharingan to defeat Zabuza? No. The Sharingan was useless in that regard, which is the point I was making. Yes, the tactic was a perfectly valid way to overcome the weakness, but it does not alter the fact that the Sharingan itself was useless. If Zabuza had pressed the attack instead of stepping back to gloat, he'd have creamed Kakashi.

Another element to concider is that Zabuza shared Kakashi's weakness in terms of sight loss, a Byakugan user would have no such problems. They'd have seen what Kakashi was doing and would have plenty of time to counter (remember, close combat specialists)

Also, the Sharingan weakness can be found by using common sense, the Byakugan weakness cannot. Another score for Byakugan.

Originally Posted by vision55

- Yes I did read but I only mentioned all the other variants of the Sharningan because the thread said byukugan vs. Sharingan, and not byukugan vs. Sharingan not including all other levels. I have to take into account the heights a person can take thier blood line limit....and as we can see Sharingan can take it very high....If you were just comparing byukugan vs. first level sharingan it is like comparing....a jetta vs. a porshe that was only alowed to go to second gear.....what I am trying to say you have to take thier powers as a whole and you cannot just stop when ever it fits your argument.

But you don't need to go through ridiculous amounts of trouble to shift into another gear. I was comparing an average Uchiha versus an average Hyuuga (note, for example, that I never mentioned Kaiten, which is assumed to be a rare and valued skill amongst Hyuuga). An average Uchiha does not posses the Mangekyou.

Originally Posted by vision55

- Are you seriously arguing that the sharingan is hard to unlock so therefore the best bet is the byukugan. First of all the thread says byukugan vs. Sharingan and not byukugan and if you are lucky enough to achive Sharingan. Secondly like you said "The greater number of Uchiha never achieved the Mangekyou." but still they were still able to be the strongest clan in the leaf.

You're not reading. I never said 'therefore' I said it comes into the calculation of which of the two bloodlines is the better one.

The thread indeed says 'Byakugan versus Sharingan' and not 'if you are lucky enough to achieve it' but neither does it say 'when both at their peak' therefore, we are talking about the bloodlines in general

Spoiler for manga:

and in general a Sharingan wielder will not even be able to reach the first stage of the Mangekyou, much less the second.

When deciding which of the two bloodlines is the better one in general, all kinds of factors must be taken into acount. Raw power, the various uses, their weaknesses, how easy they are to obtain, their strain, how easy they are to use, how easy they are to master, these are all elements that come into play when looking at which of the two is the better one.

[Spectacular_Insanity]

Personally, I'd still go for Byakugan. As a matter of principle, I'd rather not have to kill people in order to unlock an insane power. And I'd also rather not go blind once reaching that higher power. It basically negates the purpose. I'd rather be stuck in second gear than to have my engine blow out, so to speak.

For the record, people, the Sharingan CANNOT, I repeat CANNOT see through solid objects. Only the Byakugan can do that.

[siya]

Originally Posted by Adediran242

@_@ vs. O_O

Sorry, I know it's pointless, but I saw it in sombody's sig and I thought it was teh shizz!

lol..I used to have "Sharingan @_@ and the Byakugan O_O are nothing compared to Thisagan >___O" xD

But anywho...The Byakugan and Sharingan are not better then eachother...It depends on the locaton of the fight and stuff...It's really a matter of surrondings.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Keroko

I'm asuming that the people who come here to discuss have a full understanding of the who's and what of the Narutoverse in terms of progress. Why else would they come to a thread that dives into the details of the Narutoverse?

You shouldn't assume so much, there is no [Manga] tag in the title and as such all discussions about events or characters yet to be introduced in the anime are to be hidden behind spoiler tags.

[siya]

Originally Posted by Hunter

You shouldn't assume so much, there is no [Manga] tag in the title and as such all discussions about events or characters yet to be introduced in the anime are to be hidden behind spoiler tags.

This is really a Manga discussion, I mean..it would kinda help if you read the manga to support your opinion on to a point in which is better due to the fact that what happens if something new is reveld and you don't know about it? You opinon could go right out the window and could make you seem..well...a little stupid..but that's kinda get of topic (I think...)

Anywho, In a reality though (as I said earlier) it depends on how your opponent fight and your area surroundings. I mean, you put someone with the Byakugan against someone with the Sharingan. The Byakugan user creates a thick mist like Zabuza did. All the Sharingan user would see is flowing chakra..and with out the Sharingan, just a mist...the Byakugan user can see through the mist and attack..the Byakugan user has the advatange...now..I'm too lazy to type a situation where the Sharingan could win, and the bell to go to my next class is getting ready to ring..so I'm not going to, but you get the point.

[Hunter]

I don't see how this discussion needs much, if any, manga-only knowledge to form your opinion.


Anyway the whole mist situation is more than unlikely considering the Hyuga so far have only shown the ability to fight using their own fighting style and nothing else. They don't use elemental Ninjutsu, they train their Byakugan and the Jyuken, that's what they do and that's why they are so good at it.
Mastering another style of combat in order to create a way to obfuscate an area would require many months, probably years actually, during which they wouldn't train what make their real strength because contrary to Sharingan user

Spoiler:

and lately Naruto with the KB training

they can't shortcut their way out of training to obtain such abilities.
There is a reason why except for a few extremely talented individuals almost all ninja we have seen are heavily specialized into one kind of fighting.

The smoke bombs aren't that good except in a closed space, they simply aren't large enough, you just have to quickly step back out of the cloud of smoke to be out of danger.
Beside they are probably not good enough at all in this particular situation,

Spoiler:

Jiraiya, Pa and Ma could still find their opponent inside, and it was possible to see at least their localization from outside.

Like the first mist of Zabuza it probably wouldn't be thick enough to completely stop the Sharingan's insight.

That's why balanced teams of ninja are so useful and why even unbelievably powerful ninja can be threatened by a few lesser ninja in the right situation. No matter how strong you are, they is always the possibility a few ninja together will fight in a way that completely negate yours.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Hunter

You shouldn't assume so much, there is no [Manga] tag in the title and as such all discussions about events or characters yet to be introduced in the anime are to be hidden behind spoiler tags.

My apolagies, I didn't realise the Naruto forum handled such things differently from the Nanoha forum, I'll keep watch on the specific forum rules from now on.

Originally Posted by Hunter

Anyway the whole mist situation is more than unlikely considering the Hyuga so far have only shown the ability to fight using their own fighting style and nothing else. They don't use elemental Ninjutsu, they train their Byakugan and the Jyuken, that's what they do and that's why they are so good at it.

That's the only croock in the strategy. The only technique we could count as an elemental technique would Neji's Hakke Kūshō, and even that is subject to debate. Mist was simply the most viable strategy to use as an example concidering we have seen the Sharingan being rendered useless in it.

Originally Posted by Hunter

Mastering another style of combat in order to create a way to obfuscate an area would require many months, probably years actually, during which they wouldn't train what make their real strength because contrary to Sharingan user

Spoiler:

and lately Naruto with the KB training

they can't shortcut their way out of training to obtain such abilities.
There is a reason why except for a few extremely talented individuals almost all ninja we have seen are heavily specialized into one kind of fighting.

Agreed. However, this brings me to another weakness of the Sharingan (well, not really a weakness, just a minor flaw), merely copying a technique is not enough to be able to use it. For example, say someone has a chakra capacity of 50, but the technique he copied requires a chakra capacity of 60. He may know how to do the technique, but he still has to train to get the rest of his body up to snuff to be able to do it.

Originally Posted by Hunter

The smoke bombs aren't that good except in a closed space, they simply aren't large enough, you just have to quickly step back out of the cloud of smoke to be out of danger.
Beside they are probably not good enough at all in this particular situation,

Spoiler:

Jiraiya, Pa and Ma could still find their opponent inside, and it was possible to see at least their localization from outside.

Like the first mist of Zabuza it probably wouldn't be thick enough to completely stop the Sharingan's insight.

The first problem can be solved by using multiple smoke bombs in wide spread, and use the surprise to get a hit. The Jyuuken only needs one decent hit anyway, and even a scratch can damage in more ways then one. A block is even more damaging

The second

Spoiler:

Jiraiya, Pa and Ma already knew where their oponent was standing, while their oponent completely lost sight of them. The other one could localise their general position from outside, but this only worked because of the Rinegan. Even if an ally was around, without the Byakugan or rinegan link, they'd have no way to identify who is who (as examplified by the decoy frog that leaps out and fools Pain)

As for the last one, wasn't it that Kakashi copied it before the mist closed? Rather then during the mist.

Originally Posted by Hunter

That's why balanced teams of ninja are so useful and why even unbelievably powerful ninja can be threatened by a few lesser ninja in the right situation. No matter how strong you are, they is always the possibility a few ninja together will fight in a way that completely negate yours.

The entire first season Naruto cast can be testimony to this.

[vision55]

::Keroko::

Spoiler for Manga stuff maybe::

1) "We are talking about the bloodlines in general" funny it does not say that in the title. Don't cut things off when it does not fit your argument, when the topic says sharingan you have to take it in its entirety.

2) Average vs. Average users of their respective blood line is already determined for us by Kishimoto by putting the Uchihas as the strongest clan in the leaf.

3) As for someone not reading...I never said that the vision reducing would not work standard way of thinking and attacking...I said sharingan users would over come them rather easily and that is the reason your whole throw something in their eyes theory would not work as great as you think it does...and just take the bridge fight with the big sword guy and copy ninja as an example.

4) As for factors to obtaining these powers are irrelevant.....maybe they would be relevant if the thread was called "which one would you rather have"...and you can talk about morality and stuff like that...but in this case since it has the "Vs." title which calls for a battle between the two bloodlines and where we would point out which one would be the victor if they went into battle. how one obtains either power is irrelevant.

5) I don't understand why you would compare averageness....When people usually compare things it is either the extremes...people dont say well i think the most average basketball player of all time is....

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by vision55

4) As for factors to obtaining these powers are irrelevant.....maybe they would be relevant if the thread was called "which one would you rather have"...and you can talk about morality and stuff like that....

Actually, the real purpose of this thread is that one, to choose which one you rather have, that’s the reason the poll has "neither" as option, that's the reason why this thread has not been closed, whereas Vs. threads are against forum rules.

[vision55]

Yep, you are right as the first post implies. In that case I guess everyone is correct in their opinion as this is a "which one would you rather have discussion". But as for a VS. at least everyone knows where I stand.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Agreed. However, this brings me to another weakness of the Sharingan (well, not really a weakness, just a minor flaw), merely copying a technique is not enough to be able to use it. For example, say someone has a chakra capacity of 50, but the technique he copied requires a chakra capacity of 60. He may know how to do the technique, but he still has to train to get the rest of his body up to snuff to be able to do it.

Of course you're right but it's not really the point I was making.
Cutting off sight is indeed the best way to fight a Sharingan user when you don't have to rely on sight yourself or when you possess an improved sight like the Hyuga but using as example a particular jutsu unrelated to the bloodline in order to do so is a problem because if you can give an hypothetical "unsight" jutsu to a Byakugan user then you can give some hypothetical "resight" jutsu to a Sharingan user except it's more likely for the later than the former because a large panel of jutsu is more likely from a bloodline allowing to copy jutsu (even if they have to be within the user physical abilities).

The first problem can be solved by using multiple smoke bombs in wide spread, and use the surprise to get a hit. The Jyuuken only needs one decent hit anyway, and even a scratch can damage in more ways then one. A block is even more damaging.

The second

Spoiler:

Jiraiya, Pa and Ma already knew where their opponent was standing, while their opponent completely lost sight of them. The other one could localize their general position from outside, but this only worked because of the Rinegan. Even if an ally was around, without the Byakugan or rinegan link, they'd have no way to identify who is who (as examplified by the decoy frog that leaps out and fools Pain)

I'm not saying it's unfeasible but really take a look at the fight Naruto vs. Kiba or the first meet with Shika and Sound 4 and you will see the cloud of smoke is very small and disappeared very fast. It's not like it should be impossible to make a more useful device with this particular strategy in mind but the actual bombs we have seen in the manga so far don't seem adapted to the situation.
The smoke bombs can be a good idea for a quick surprise attack but they don't strike me as very useful otherwise, in fact while someone disperse a few smoke bombs, an Uchiha could just jump away and use an AOE attack (like their usual Katon) in the smoke since he would know the opponent is waiting there.
Zabuza's mist covered everything on large area in width, height... and time. A few smoke bombs are never going to be as useful.

Spoiler:

Their opponent was blinded to begin with actually, I meant that since one of Pain's body could see their silhouette inside the smoke then obviously the smoke wasn't that thick. And if you can see the silhouette then I don't think the Sharingan will be completely blinded, especially to the aura of chakra.

As for the last one, wasn't it that Kakashi copied it before the mist closed? Rather then during the mist.

Not according to Zabuza's explanation in the 1st and 2nd fight. The first time the mist wasn't that bad. Kakashi could still see his team, meaning he had a relatively clear sight a few meters ahead.
The 2nd time however he was barely seeing anything.

The entire first season Naruto cast can be testimony to this.

Am I reading contrary to the 2nd season in this sentence? ^^


One other thing though, contrary to the Sharingan the Byakugan isn't said to see through Genjutsu.
Personally I think the Hyuga should be particularly good at dispelling them because of their chakra control but they don't have some kind of immunity as far as we know (in fact even the Sharingan which is known as a Genjutsu eye isn't immune to Genjutsu).

Originally Posted by Rurik

Actually, the real purpose of this thread is that one, to choose which one you rather have, that’s the reason the poll has "neither" as option, that's the reason why this thread has not been closed, whereas Vs. threads are against forum rules.

Actually the reason is because this thread predate this rule and we tend to allow old thread like that to continue as long as they remain quiet and civil

[Rurik]

While I’m already retired to try to talk some sense in people who think that Byakugan can hold something against the Sharigan, I still can have some time to share…

Originally Posted by Keroko

Another element to concider is that Zabuza shared Kakashi's weakness in terms of sight loss, a Byakugan user would have no such problems. They'd have seen what Kakashi was doing and would have plenty of time to counter (remember, close combat specialists)

Actually there are ways to render the Byakugan vision useless, as for example, the Doton Jutsu that Jroubu used blocked Neeji Vision.

But you don't need to go through ridiculous amounts of trouble to shift into another gear. I was comparing an average Uchiha versus an average Hyuuga (note, for example, that I never mentioned Kaiten, which is assumed to be a rare and valued skill amongst Hyuuga). An average Uchiha does not posses the Mangekyou.

This is were the thread fails it purpose, the topic is specifically about the sharingan and byakugan, so things as if you are Hyuga or if you aren’t, don’t come into play here, neither things as Kaiten or The other Hyugas Jutsus that are not traits of the Byakugan abilities. you could say the same for Amatersau or Tsukiyomy..unless this abbilties are automatically gained with the MS.

The thread indeed says 'Byakugan versus Sharingan' and not 'if you are lucky enough to achieve it' but neither does it say 'when both at their peak' therefore, we are talking about the bloodlines in general

Spoiler for manga:

and in general a Sharingan wielder will not even be able to reach the first stage of the Mangekyou, much less the second.

That’s moot because even the Sharingan itself was rare amongst the Uchiha, so trying to take away things from the Sharingan just because some people choose not to reach the MS, doesn’t void that the Sharingan can offer the MS.