Morality in Death Note? Do the ends justify the means?

[Spectacular_Insanity]

Originally Posted by Endrance

In the end despite everything i do think light had good intentions its just desperation and power made him lose his way

Not really. If you'll remember, he was screaming about killing everyone at the end. He was a genius, evil AND pathetic. I never knew such a combination existed until Death Note.

[siya]

Originally Posted by Spectacular_Insanity

Not really. If you'll remember, he was screaming about killing everyone at the end. He was a genius, evil AND pathetic. I never knew such a combination existed until Death Note.

Well I wouldn't say he was "evil." More of a socialpath...I mean, at first, his intentions were good. Just, once he realized the true power he possesd as well as everyone worshiping him, he realized with that power he can take over the world.

Originally Posted by mrvetle

This isn't really on topic. But i would just like to say this to everyone who said "killing is against religion.

Religion doesn't really save anyone, the only thing religion does is killing. Besides from giving people answers; like how this world was created etc. So they "don't have to think about it anymore."

And i won't look at this topic again to see if someone replied to me and want to start an discussion, because i am extremely stubborn and hate discussing over the internet. Though i just somehow started a new discussion.

Yea..besides..Killing is against some religions..alot of others that's not true...Or they wouldn't have sacrifices.

[Echoes]

I think "killing to become famous and powerful" is evil pretty much by definition.

[Spectacular_Insanity]

Originally Posted by siya

Well I wouldn't say he was "evil." More of a socialpath...I mean, at first, his intentions were good. Just, once he realized the true power he possesd as well as everyone worshiping him, he realized with that power he can take over the world.

No, his intentions weren't good. He thought they were good, which is not the same as actually being good. I'm sure Hitler felt the same way as Light. He wasnted to become the new God of the world... by killing anyone who got in his way. That's evil, no two ways about it.

[Samurai07]

To tell you the truth, I say that Yagami Light is playing the role of God in the series.
He is the one that will bring justice. If i had one wish, I'd ask that the Death Note was real but, put in the right hands eg. someone like Kira (Light) and/or 2nd Kira(Misa)!

[Aquaman OS]

Light was like an even worse version of Suzaku from CG. Light was just a sadistic bastard who enjoyed the feeling of taking others out. He was lying to himself the whole time about wanting to help the world, he was really just bored because he thought himself too good to bother with the world.

To those who wish he and the DN was real WTF is wrong with you? Do you really want to die, because unless you fit Light's personal description of the perfect human being (basically a cocky selfish genius like him) you'll be on his list to kill before long.
Light cared for no one but himself, not his father, not Misa, not his many followers NOBODY. Basically Light was prime specimen of the REAL scum of the world. Not two bit crooks, but the masterminds like him.

The author of the story himself said that Light was wrong in his methods. What more proof do you need?

[LeoXiao]

I think that Light is evil, and all the police and those helping them were just trying to do their jobs.

However, he was only an individual. Sure, he may have betrayed his girlfriends and his family and those who trusted him, but he saved millions of people by stopping murders, wars, etc. The amount of human suffering caused by wars and genocide was not brought up in the manga/anime, but if one were to go trough the individual life stories of every person who was saved by Light, he/she would soon forget about the one bad example that was Yagami Light. Although he turned evil and did many bad things, the results of his actions prevented so much evil that the figures simply justify his action.

In a way, Light sacrificed his own soul for the lives of millions of people. My only worry about him would be that he would even begin to kill for personal gain/profit.

[Endrance]

hmm i think i agree with that i mean most people seemed to feel the way misa did because they or someone they loved was saved or avenged by kira's actions. Were his actions good? No but from the point of view of those people light was perhaps sacrificing the one to inevitably save the millions

[Tenken's Smile]

Here is an interesting discussion on Light's ideology: http://main.deathgod.org/articles/be...ights-ideology

Light : “If I made a eye-deal, then I’d become a shinigami just like you. I’m using the Death Note as a human, and for humans.”

A good thing about Yagami Raito (Light) is that he’s not using DN for his own personal gain. INITIALLY, he was as bright and pure as his name suggests. I agree with his idea of Justice : getting rid of evil criminals who manage to escape the Law due to lack of evidence (everyday I read the news and wonder: how can these criminals be able to go free ?!) . With the birth of Kira, crime rates worldwide have decreased significantly. So Light is creating one thing that many of us dream of: a better, fair world in which justice and perfect harmony exist = an Utopia .

“Trash go to the trash can. Criminals go to Kira-sama”

ICPO: “I don’t mean to give the killer any praise, but… in the past few days, criminal activities around the world have decreased dramatically”

But, Light has gone TOO far since he’s started killing INNOCENT people only because of fear of being discovered or worse, as an experiment. He’s gotten into criminals’ psyche that we’ve seen very often in DETECTIVE CONAN, which goes like this: the initial crime may have been hidden forever, but as time progresses, the criminal’s anxiety increases because of fear of being exposed, so he commits more crimes with the sole purpose to hide the main crime, and that’s exactly how he gets caught: for going too far . . . Here, Light has gone more along the line of criminal thinking than trying to be a judge of Justice since he’s kept worrying about being caught and even planning mass murder ahead.

At this point, Light no longer exists. Only Kira . . .

“It is the power to kill that is evil, not the person himself. It is a misfortune to have that power …”

Not only Light used the Death Note, but the police and Near did, too! N might have written Teru Mikami into the DN but burned it so no one ever found out. In the end, the world is once more full of crimes as it was before, and two policemen ask each other: “I don’t know if what we did was the right thing…”

So we all could see … Good can be Evil, and vice versa.

Both sides claim : “I am Justice”

In the end, who is good ? Who is evil ? Who is right and who is wrong ? “DN” makes all of us question, and there is no definite answer. As L said:

“It’s not a sense of Justice. Figuring out difficult cases is my hobby. If you measure Good and Evil by current laws, I would be responsible for many crimes…”

[gunndreams]

I think that, in order to end the debate as to whether convicted criminals are afforded death sentences that seem "cruel and unusual" (unlike what they did to their victims), then if the Death Note were real, have them write their own name into it upon being pronounced guilty. OJ Simpson would have thought he were signing his own autograph.

[jtstellar]

t00 much rhetoric.. before you all get ahead of yourself.. this thread question is easily answered by looking at things realistically. history has already provided the answer, and the whole western / european culture as well as the history of capitalistic society's conflicts against communist regimes also help to answer all this. clearly if you look at the united states constitution and see how it stands in history, the results and prosperity it brings to a nation that follows it in proper manner, as well as the prosperity of all the other nations who copy the us constitution to a sufficient degree -- not even 100%, it's easy to conclude that in order to have long term prosperity, or the "end", you must have a systematic solution.

the manner of solving things implied in the very quote "'end justifies the means'" defies the very essence of a stable and systematic solution. it's just like communism works in theory, but never in real life because too many other variables are not considered. people cannot act with one mind.. while you carry out certain actions, there are always other people watching and imitating for their own personal gain. so, does the end justify the mean? sure, for a short while. but if you want to keep a system running for a long term, the least you need is for every single successor (let's suppose that they even share the same intended "end") to carry the same tools, have similar abilities, and somehow come up with different ways that miraculously always achieve the same "end" in the end. it's simply not possible in real world.

"the end justifies the means" or "the end doesn't justify the means".. those are useless statements along with perhaps other 99% moral questions out there.. it's just that superficial moral values a lot of times coincide with how human systems will be successfully run eventually. i'm not sure if it's because morality.. which often lies in human instincts.. are inherently systematic solutions, or because systematic solutions later come by because of this irrationality people all share in the first place. either way, if you wish to see things from a higher ground, asking these rhetorical questions that systematic solutions have already arrived to solve (they have been established and tested as seen in history) simply doesn't help. one needs to look at what already works, pay attention to the system, and then look back to see why something does or doesn't work. it's not a question of morality.. it's simply too ambiguous if you take that path.

so yes and no, the end justifies the means. yes one smart individual can perhaps achieve all ends for his whole life without a system (again doing whatever is necessary to achieve the ends means there is a lack of principle, a rule of law, and therefore a functioning system). yes perhaps his successors can. it's almost a game of probability. how many people after him can keep the shaky "method" running, and always have the same "end"? so if you want to look at the long term, then no, the end doesn't justify the means because eventually one individual will fail to have his end delivered to him, and his reign ends along with the destruction of the previously established order. and if destruction is eventually unavoidable, one cannot conclude rightfully that "the end justifies the means" is a functioning principle.

[Aerii]

I don't have anything long and dramatic to say, so I'll just put in my one-cent (that's right, not even a whole two-cents).

I think that Light's ideals are right, but it's in no way justified. Killing someone means no second chances, and he seems to think that criminals don't feel guilt; that criminals aren't haunted by the crimes they commit. They probably don't sleep well. In Light's eyes, there is only good and evil, no gray. Light is absolute justice, while criminals are entirely wicked. I believe everyone deserves second chances, and that no one deserves to be killed. Light's a hypocrite to me.

[kk2extreme]

hey didnt they stated in the end the crime rate in the world is reduced by 70 % bcuz of kira? whether it is moral or not (but i will take L's view on this one), i would feel safer with kira around (as long as someone doesnt put my face online being a crimminal

[noktown]

The anime was good,an anime where we followed a bad guy as a main character(usually it would be a good person and etc),i think it would be cool to see the opposite version though,where we don't know who's the one killing all the criminals and stuff,but i think Light was starting as a normal person,at the begining he wasn't a bad or good person he was just a bored/genious person,who wanted something different,then he got this death note and started killing the criminals thinking that its a good thing to do which it is imo,and of course after awhile people tried to stop him,which he didn't like,first he tried not to harm them,then he started warning them and then killing everyone,because he's got overcoinfident,he simply thought that he was God that noone could actually stop/harm him so he killed everyone who was getting in his way,it is not a good thing obviously,Light has gone insane in my opinion this power ruined him,he has chosen the wrong path to follow,i think in the end he deserved to die,because a person like him wouldn't stop until he's dead,i agree with Spectacular_Insanity on this 1 he was genius, evil AND PATHETIC.

[zero-ed]

just started watching death note and i'm finding really hard to decide who i want to win out of Light and L.

I think WHAT Light is trying to do is right, bit i dont like the WAY in which he does this

[NormalMar]

I believe that Light was wrong in what he was doing. Still, I thought he was a fascinating character.

[Kagekyuubi]

Personally I don't really much in the concept of good and evil. They are simply a term used to define "things you approve of" and "things you disapprove of". Following that, i could say that all onions are evil and pizzas are good.

I'd go with light. His methods and motives may have been questionable but the fact is that he made his world safer in terms of criminal activities. End will always justify the means. It's always been that way in this world.

There's also the fact that no one is truly noble. Some people may have been known to be "great" people but we have no way of knowing what they are planning. Here's another thing, in the special 109th chapter of death note, it was revealed that L did not go after KIRA for justice but because the case interested him. L's cool but even he's not necessarily a noble person.

[CaptainSmoker]

The people that dont agree with Lights tactics (in the show maybe real life even) are criminals themselves or people of money at stake. If you think about it, it was "L"s JOB to find Kira, he didnt do it with a sense of justice, thus L was a hypocrite not a hero, he did it for the money. The police officers had a pay check and were also finding him for the money. Kira gained NOTHING. no one knew who Kira was, just like Superman killing villians without the money or fame, hes just some guy with a costume fighting crime

In the end Kira had results, he reduced crime in a filthy world, criminals were scared to act and hurt someone.

The best cure for a disease is to make sure you never recieve it, in other words Kira made sure criminals would stop doing criminal things. Its impossible to revive some one that is already murdered but its very possible to prevent individuals from murdering through a system.

Only things i thought Kira did wrong was killing investigators, oh and dieing like a coward

[Amylian]

I am not pretty sure if I would really take advantage of the Death Note; it sounds like I would be a murderer. Really, It is really awkward when I think about it, which by the way I did. Though some people deserve to die and this world will be better without them, I am better than to dirty my hands to kill them. Let heaven takes care of them.

[Tripfag]

Let's compare him to other fictional serial killers for a minute.

Dexter Morgan often does a full investigation on the people he kills, and usually only kills them after they admit to the crime.

Frank Castle goes after one person, and kills whoever gets in his way (barring cops and soldiers, but that's another story).

Light Yagami writes names off of a list. He doesn't even care about due process. He'll kill someone suspected of a crime. Furthermore, he goes on about one day killing people for such horrible crimes as gambling or being lazy.

How can anyone defend someone like this?