Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

[Kyero Fox]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

That movie had its share of funny moments, a handful of exciting ones, but as with TFA, I wish they'd gone elsewhere for that trilogy. Having the good guys on the other side of asymmetric warfare, or the balkanization of the galaxy, anything but the puny resistance fleeing before the great Empire. Again.


You call that female empowerment? I saw it as the opposite. First, if she's a vice admiral, why is she wearing that flowy dress instead of a military uniform? Most importantly, why can't Poe just accept her authority? Why should she have to justify her decisions to him?

Spoiler for spoils:

Pretty sure because she wouldn't tell anyone the plans and got people killed? Nostalgic Critics review nailed it

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Kyero Fox

Spoiler for spoils:

Pretty sure because she wouldn't tell anyone the plans and got people killed? Nostalgic Critics review nailed it

Actually, what we know is that she didn't tell everyone. It's possible she told the senior staff, which Poe wasn't. Who is he to demand explanations from, again, a vice-admiral? Why does she need his approval? (Speaking of getting people killed, see how little consequences there were when Poe disobeyed direct orders and did just that?)

And when they got tracked, wouldn't it be natural to assume the possibility of a spy and keep things on a need to know basis?

[Ryuga]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

I watched this yesterday, so here's my take on it. Part VIII is not a bad movie, even by Star Wars standards, but it has a certain quality about it that makes you wonder...

Spoiler for Comments and questions on movie scenes:

- You kill Paige and introduce "good guys never flee" Rose, who is obviously meant to fall for Fin. WHY would she betray her own creed to save Fin in his most badass hero moment of sacrifice!? The obvious answer is she had a change of heart or whatever, but that is so Disney of her it made me think I'm watching an entirely different franchise.

- The master codebreaker subplot felt like a huge drag.

- The moral lessons in casino city, even more so.

- Chewbacca adopting his dinner, after he brutally cooked their mother in front of their eyes...I'm just eyerolling at this point, what the hell.

- Luke taking on multiple apprentices at one time. I don't know if anyone else has commented on this, but it's my first big question: how can there be more than one master and apprentice? Yeah, most of them die in Kylo's fight vs Luke, but he saved six of them, who, to my understanding, became the dark juniors he later kills with Rey...right? One might say they never use the Force, but their finesse implies Jedi training.

- What was the darkness in Rey's heart? The way I see it, we are presented with a literal place of darkness; has it always been there? What was so alluring about it if Rey couldn't find the answers she wanted in the first place? How is Rey's wish to meet her parents a part of her descent to the Dark side? I get the aftermath of doing so could affect her, but not the quest in itself - unlike Anakin's rage and bloodlust. And Luke says it scared the shit out of him!?

- Snoke is portrayed so underpowered, he even opts out of trademark Dark lightning skills, while Luke displays Light astral projection long enough for the resistance to escape. Why, though? It is to make it a harder whammy in case they bring Snoke back in IX?

- We get a boatload of weird monsters to obviously replace the nowhere to be seen Ewoks. I'm starting to feel Disney wants to completely remake Star Wars by gradually washing away its trademark elements with...whatever this is.

- Kylo Ren is, as of now, the new supreme emperor, but he's as strong as Rey while still not fully committed to the Dark side (but free of conflict), yet the Light clearly has Rey as a champion (even without a midichlorian scanner for power levels, this much is obvious). Not feeling the balance here...especially if we count the entire Empire vs what, three ships of Resistance and a bunch of slave kids?

Anyway, the movie dragged at certain points, its plot value is minimal (basically a big chase ending in a very narrow Rebel escape), but it certainly changes enough things to consider part IX set up. I just don't have the slightest idea as to where they'll go with it. 6.7/10, might watch again before IX to refresh my memory.

I'll try and answer some of the questions.

Spoiler for The Last Jedi:

1) I don't think it necessarily contradicts Rose's creed. She was mad at Finn because she thought he was deserting. Rose wasn't deserting herself, she was protecting those she loved by saving Finn and escaping with them to fight another day.

2) Luke is more loose with the rules and doesn't follow everything to the letter I'm guessing. Hence the multiple apprentices.

3) As Luke explained, the Force exists in all aspects of nature. The place she was diving into was a place that was naturally attuned to the Dark Side and could serve as a gateway into it. Luke was scared because she was diving headfirst into it without resisting.

As for the darkness in Rey's heart, it's her sorrow over being abandoned and being in denial about who she really is.

4) Snoke did use Force Lightning, he blows back Kylo with a spark of it. And he was depicted as quite powerful IMO (force dragging Hux through a hologram, being a playground bully to Rey lol.

[Kafriel]

Thanks for the reply, I'd missed a few things. Still not really convinced about #2, but I'll take what I have

[Ithekro]

I would think that, like in the EU, Luke doesn't know the old rules, and just does whatever until issue come up for him to make new rules that are like the old rules, or are just similar. (Or finds out about the rules later from one of his searchs for lost Jedi lore).

People like Kanan or Ahsoka would have been helpful in knowing some of these things. Just any surviving adawan really to give pointers.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Kyero Fox

Spoiler for spoils:

Pretty sure because she wouldn't tell anyone the plans and got people killed? Nostalgic Critics review nailed it

Spoiler:

The only person that was getting people killed was Poe and his team. If Poe had simply followed orders like every other soldier Holdo's plan would have gone off without a hitch and the vast majority of the remaining resistance would have slipped under the first order's notice. The only reason so many died is because Poe told the plan to Finn who in turn allowed a random thief he met in a jail cell to hear the plan. Considering Rose was dealing with deserters, perhaps incompetent leaks like that are the reason why Holdo kept her plan "need to know" and Poe, who had no role in the plan and had recently been demoted for disobeying orders and getting people killed, didn't need to know. Poe got everyone killed because he wasn't satisfied being treated like a minor supporting character common soldier and decided to act like a protagonist Hero

Heck Poe didn't even have a real reason for keeping his own plan a secret from Holdo; he just ASSUMED she would never support it even though it was a fairly low risk operation. His plan would have only risked the lives of 3 people; if the plan failed the fleet would still be in the exact same spot. The only why his plan could risk the fleet is they tried to stick to the plan till the last second and thus delayed their escape on the transporters (which Poe did...)... Its actually downright incompetent that poe thought he could work this plan without Holdo seeing as he would have needed control of the bridge in order to work his plan in the first place

Everything would have been fine if Poe stopped acting like he knows better than his commanders, trusted and respected his commanders and followed orders just like everyone else. The chain of command exists for a reason.


Honestly i feel like audience problems with this is because of ingrained heroic tropes, which the movie wanted to subvert. The audience sides with Poe over Holdo simply because he's the protagonist. In fiction, whenever situations like this come up, its always the commanders' who came up with a terrible plan and its up to the hero to go rogue with their own plan to save the day and correct the commanders' mess up. As the protagonist we expect Poe to get special treatment, to stay in the loop, and know the plan; we don't expect him to be treated like an NPC. We expect the roguish hero to be correct, and the authority figure to be arrogant and wrong. We find it offensive when the commanders don't rely on the heroes and are quick to accuse them of incompetence because they didn't follow the heroes lead (which is usually proven to be true)... But hey, as it turns out, the heroes aren't always right, they don't always have the best plan, and sometimes the commanders are actually worthy of their positions and can be trusted to lead.

[MCAL]

https://www.rollingstone.com/glixel/...disney-w514793

I certainly didn't expect this.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by MCAL

https://www.rollingstone.com/glixel/...disney-w514793

I certainly didn't expect this.

MrTerrorist actually posted that on the previous page already.

[Kyero Fox]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Spoiler:

The only person that was getting people killed was Poe and his team. If Poe had simply followed orders like every other soldier Holdo's plan would have gone off without a hitch and the vast majority of the remaining resistance would have slipped under the first order's notice. The only reason so many died is because Poe told the plan to Finn who in turn allowed a random thief he met in a jail cell to hear the plan. Considering Rose was dealing with deserters, perhaps incompetent leaks like that are the reason why Holdo kept her plan "need to know" and Poe, who had no role in the plan and had recently been demoted for disobeying orders and getting people killed, didn't need to know. Poe got everyone killed because he wasn't satisfied being treated like a minor supporting character common soldier and decided to act like a protagonist Hero

Heck Poe didn't even have a real reason for keeping his own plan a secret from Holdo; he just ASSUMED she would never support it even though it was a fairly low risk operation. His plan would have only risked the lives of 3 people; if the plan failed the fleet would still be in the exact same spot. The only why his plan could risk the fleet is they tried to stick to the plan till the last second and thus delayed their escape on the transporters (which Poe did...)... Its actually downright incompetent that poe thought he could work this plan without Holdo seeing as he would have needed control of the bridge in order to work his plan in the first place

Everything would have been fine if Poe stopped acting like he knows better than his commanders, trusted and respected his commanders and followed orders just like everyone else. The chain of command exists for a reason.


Honestly i feel like audience problems with this is because of ingrained heroic tropes, which the movie wanted to subvert. The audience sides with Poe over Holdo simply because he's the protagonist. In fiction, whenever situations like this come up, its always the commanders' who came up with a terrible plan and its up to the hero to go rogue with their own plan to save the day and correct the commanders' mess up. As the protagonist we expect Poe to get special treatment, to stay in the loop, and know the plan; we don't expect him to be treated like an NPC. We expect the roguish hero to be correct, and the authority figure to be arrogant and wrong. We find it offensive when the commanders don't rely on the heroes and are quick to accuse them of incompetence because they didn't follow the heroes lead (which is usually proven to be true)... But hey, as it turns out, the heroes aren't always right, they don't always have the best plan, and sometimes the commanders are actually worthy of their positions and can be trusted to lead.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Actually, what we know is that she didn't tell everyone. It's possible she told the senior staff, which Poe wasn't. Who is he to demand explanations from, again, a vice-admiral? Why does she need his approval? (Speaking of getting people killed, see how little consequences there were when Poe disobeyed direct orders and did just that?)

And when they got tracked, wouldn't it be natural to assume the possibility of a spy and keep things on a need to know basis?

I don't think you two are seeing what the new movies are doing even tho its pretty obvious. But it's okay. I dislike just about everything about this movie and you two like it. so we'll agree to disagree.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Kyero Fox

I don't think you two are seeing what the new movies are doing even tho its pretty obvious. But it's okay. I dislike just about everything about this movie and you two like it. so we'll agree to disagree.

It's not about "like" or "dislike". I just don't think it's "empowering" for a female leader to need the validation of a male who's nominally much lower than her on the ladder and an insubordinate screw-up. Especially when you consider the end of the movie.

Spoiler for end:

The female leader dies. The male screw-up is groomed to succeed her.

(Also, it's funny that you'd assume my saying "it's not empowering" is a defense of the movie.)

[Seafoam]

Welp I've rewatched it, and my conclusion on the movie is that it represents the best and worst of the franchise.

Spoiler:

I think the expansion of the force's lore and the Jedi is easily the best part of the movie, along with them not following the old formula. But I think Rose and most of Finn's adventure was largely unneeded because it barely tied into the plot at the end, unless this somehow is changed in episode 9 and beyond.

Snoke being largely unimportant is annoying, but I get what they were going for. The whole thing there was Kylo rejecting the past and saying that none of it really matters, since the future is now for them. But with that logic I think this should've happened in episode 9. This is the end of the Skywalker saga, but episode 8 is more like the end, and 9 seemingly the epilogue to it. I dunno, I just think the moving into the future should've been saved for the end of 9 and the new trilogy with 8, it seems a bit rushed. I'm almost 100% sure we'll learn more in the novels/tv shows about him but I wish we learned more in the place it counts, because he had some good scenes and was very clearly a Sith.

Luke was the best character in the movie by a metric longshot I think, and while you could argue he was out of character until the end, that's just the whole point if you ask me. Seeing him and Yoda all but confirm that the Jedi ultimately failed in their two generations was the icing on the cake that George Lucas never addressed. Episode 6's biggest flaw to me was the lack of finality and no one really addressing everything that led to it, and acknowledging their flaws, but this had it. Another reason why I wished some of this came in episode 9. Luke's "death" was great and hearkened back to Obi-Wan's in episode 4, and he finally completed his "prophecy", which was to bring balance back to the force.

All I gotta say for the rest is that Kylo is still a punk but he's easier to see as a villain now, and Rey not being a Skywalker is what I wanted, although there's still no explanation as to why she's so good with the force. But it isn't ridiculous like the last episode where she becomes adept in a manner of minutes.

Still dunno what that ending was about, was it those kids in the ranch on that casino planet? I swore that kid used the force to move the broom, meaning a force sensitive generation is rising, but why would it be affected so quickly? I hope it's a timeskip, actually.

[Endscape]

Snoke literally explained why Rey was so strong. Why do people have such an issue with Rey being so good anyway, no one cared when Luke instantly became an expert X-Wing pilot.

[Seafoam]

I'd like to think learning to use the force is a bit harder than becoming a pilot but alas it's not nearly as big an issue for me as it is others.

[JagdPanther]

Originally Posted by Seafoam

Welp I've rewatched it, and my conclusion on the movie is that it represents the best and worst of the franchise.

Spoiler:

Episode 6's biggest flaw to me was the lack of finality

Quoi?

I... I need something more here. I cannot wrap my head around this sentence, acknowledging that I snipped off the second half of it. Did you type the wrong episode number there?

[Ithekro]

I remember the playgrounds of the early '80s. There were the boys that wanted to be Han Solo, the boys that wanted to use the Force like Luke, a mix of girls that wanted to either be the Princess or a Force using Leia. And there were a few that would rather be Darth Vader. I wanted to be the Force user and the girl I was interested in wanted to be a Force using, lightsaber weilding Leia. We had fun as seven and eight year olds.

[Seafoam]

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

Quoi?

I... I need something more here. I cannot wrap my head around this sentence, acknowledging that I snipped off the second half of it. Did you type the wrong episode number there?

A strange opinion, yes. But for my tastes I'd like people to acknowledge how they got into that mess. Sure you don't need a timeskip or anything but it was something that I always felt about it. I can't explain it well but virtually every Star Wars movie ends in a way that leaves me hanging in an odd way. I was hoping the new trilogy would give that but it seems they want to use this trilogy instead to setup the future of the franchise instead. I sorta worded that wrong though, because at least back then all the characters were wrapped up, it's only after the prequels that I felt balance hadn't been brought back.

[Blueknight78]

ok. i'm really disappointed with this movie
- too much "SJW" with "womans being badass" and males being idiots, to be clear i'm not a sexist i love strong females characters but i do hate movies/animes/cartoons/hq/novels/whatever material, which in order to make "one side badass need to make the other look dumbass" in the same way i hate too feminist or too feminist friendly movies i do hate too sexist ones.

what happened with the old everyone is badass where we have badass womans and badass males at same times without need to make the other side look soo dumb(looking to almost all the male characters which where rater pure idiots and do a lot of mess specially the 'good ones".

flin plot was really terrible, all the totally filler casine without really any purporse because in the end they could not get what they wanted and it not even was needed and the only thing they did was make the other side find about the old womans leaders plans.


too much "gray zone", like hey not everyone is totally good or evil, yeah i know and you don't need to make like many characters behavious like that to show me.

luke was terrible, i was expectating a awesome action with him before he dies but soo underplayed i really agree when the actor posted which he also don't liked his character(but later obvious was forced to change his opnion for the sake of "boss orders"

this serie have some good moment but the ammount of crap happening for me was bigg than the good ones.

now it's seen which anyone can use the "force" even a little kid without any train can use, they really changed a lot the things, really disney is doing a crap damage on franchise with they polices.

i give it a 3 or 4/10 just for some action and some jokes which worked.

really it for me surprassed even the 1,2 and 3 episodes in being bad, because i even enjoied the 3 first episodes but so far the new trilogy is being terrible with a unecessary too OP main girl(mary sue), with a annoying emo villian, a crap "lord emperor which in the end was just that weak and bad, i really loved starwars and could keep watching the old ones : 1,2,3,4,5,6 and feel all the fun and everything while is being hard for me to stick which the damage disney is doing here.

My expectations for the episode 9 are really, really low now.

[Magin]

I have finally seen the film... and while not actually Bad, I'm on the side that feels this movie took what we loved about the OT and flushed it down the toilet. I'll need some time to organize all my thoughts coherently, but as of the moment, it can be summarized as "Rian Johnson shat upon a franchise that was beloved". The only good thing about it was the visuals; the storyline and other frustrations still have ym stomach turning.

[JagdPanther]

Originally Posted by Seafoam

A strange opinion, yes. But for my tastes I'd like people to acknowledge how they got into that mess. Sure you don't need a timeskip or anything but it was something that I always felt about it. I can't explain it well but virtually every Star Wars movie ends in a way that leaves me hanging in an odd way. I was hoping the new trilogy would give that but it seems they want to use this trilogy instead to setup the future of the franchise instead. I sorta worded that wrong though, because at least back then all the characters were wrapped up, it's only after the prequels that I felt balance hadn't been brought back.

Okay, so, let me see if I understand this. By the end of Return you think that the character arcs were wrapped up, but only in the context of things we learned from the beginning of Episode IV to the end of Episode VI. It wasn't "final" in that we didn't know what *eventually* happened to the characters?

Is that basically it?

EDIT: On another note, the latest edition of Star Wars Insider came in the mail the other day. It's the TLJ issue, where they can talk about the movie since it's already released. I'll probably read it tomorrow. As the official rag of SW fandom, I cannot wait to see how they laud the film and Rian Johnson.

[TnAdct1]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Spoiler:

Honestly i feel like audience problems with this is because of ingrained heroic tropes, which the movie wanted to subvert. The audience sides with Poe over Holdo simply because he's the protagonist. In fiction, whenever situations like this come up, its always the commanders' who came up with a terrible plan and its up to the hero to go rogue with their own plan to save the day and correct the commanders' mess up. As the protagonist we expect Poe to get special treatment, to stay in the loop, and know the plan; we don't expect him to be treated like an NPC. We expect the roguish hero to be correct, and the authority figure to be arrogant and wrong. We find it offensive when the commanders don't rely on the heroes and are quick to accuse them of incompetence because they didn't follow the heroes lead (which is usually proven to be true)... But hey, as it turns out, the heroes aren't always right, they don't always have the best plan, and sometimes the commanders are actually worthy of their positions and can be trusted to lead.

Quite honestly,

Spoiler:

the film's attempt to subvert all the typical heroic tropes is part of the big issues that fans have with the film. For starters, most people are judging this film based on other Star Wars films. As such, while the themes of the film would make it feel like a good "all-around" movie, it doesn't come off as good when seeing this as a "Star Wars" movie.

Second, the subverted tropes results in a general overall bleakness that would turn off some viewers. Yeah, both Empire Strikes Back and Revenge of the Sith also are "downer" films where the bad guys come out on top. However, look at where we are at by the end of these films:

Empire Strikes Back: Despite the major defeat, the Rebellion still managed to survive Heck, the key members managed to escape during the Battle of Hoth, with part of the film's drama really stemming from how the hyperspace drive on the Millennium Falcon is broken, with Han and Leia not having an easy time trying to evade the Empire and reunite with the other Rebels. By the end of the film, the hyperspace drive is fixed, Leia and the heroes escape the Empire and reach a Rebel ship, Luke gets his robotic arm to replace the one that Vader cut off, and Lando and Chewbacca head off as the mission to rescue Han begins.

Revenge of the Sith: Yes, the the age of the Old Republic has come to and end and the Jedi is 99% wiped out. However, besides this being a foregone conclusion to begin with, everything isn't completely bleak. Obi Wan has injured Vader to a point where he has to spend the rest of his life on life support. Yoda had managed to escape from his battle against Palpatine without him knowing that he's still alive. The early stages of confronting the Empire are already being set up. Finally, it's suggested that other Jedi Masters have survived Order 66 and, like Obi Wan and Yoda, will go into hiding for now.

The Last Jedi: Basically, the Resistance has been whittled down to just a few people on board the Millennium Falcon, Luke Skywalker has become "one with the Force", and with the New Republic still in disarray due to this film taking place days after The Force Awakens, the Kylo Ren-led First Order are basically planning to take advantage of this to continue their dominance.

Basically, while Empire and Sith still had some hope even through all this, The Last Jedi basically says "They're screwed" when it comes to the heroes, which is probably NOT the best route to go when it comes to the movie going audience.