what c.e did wrong.

[dom33]

i've been watching zeta gundam() and i noticed u.c. battles are shorter than c.e battles so i concluded that the battles where short so there is time to develop the plot,characters and etc.disscus and don't start a flame war.

[Haromatt]

Well, the fact that they are long is irrelevant IMO, it's just that the C.E.(especially Destiny's) battles lack any semblance of drama. Since you KNOW that the main character will just stock footage _X_ amount of grunts, and anyone that is related to the main character has very little chance of dieing / getting hurt. Look at V Gundam, that series was amazing, partially because the death/episode ratio was mostly 1:1.

[SNT1]

Originally Posted by Haromatt

Well, the fact that they are long is irrelevant IMO, it's just that the C.E.(especially Destiny's) battles lack any semblance of drama. Since you KNOW that the main character will just stock footage _X_ amount of grunts, and anyone that is related to the main character has very little chance of dieing / getting hurt. Look at V Gundam, that series was amazing, partially because the death/episode ratio was mostly 1:1.

again, whats so good about everyone dying?

MSG wasnt particularly a death-fest, but it was pretty good, and I could say the same with GSEED.

[Fafnir]

The thing that makes it good that lots of characters die is because you don't know if a character will die, and you don't know who will die. It adds suspense. Where as in Seed, we always know who will win, and don't have to think anyone people like will die. Morsawa and Fukuda just can't realize that killing off characters is not a bad thing, in fact, it can make them even more well liked(until you bring them back.... )

[SNT1]

i said SEED, not SEED DESTINY. miles away in difference on death tolls.

[Demongod86]

What's wrong with bringing back characters? I mean how is it bad that Yuna becomes happy again at the end of FFX2? And heck, what's wrong with Murrue getting her guy back?

It was impossible for Mwu to survive, but come on, HE'S THE MAN THAT MAKES THE IMPOSSIBLE POSSIBLE!

[srb]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

It was impossible for Mwu to survive, but come on, HE'S THE MAN THAT MAKES THE IMPOSSIBLE POSSIBLE!

Also, not a fortress.

SEED's later battles had quite a lot of suspense actually, and even in the beginning there were some exciting moments, like episode 5 "Phase Shift Down". I would like more surprises though.

One of the most memorable deaths in Gundam for me is...

Spoiler for Early Victory Gundam spoiler:

When a member of the Shrike team uses her mobile suit to stop the shuttle launch ramp from collapsing, and a BESPA soldier just flies over to her and stabs the MS in the cockpit. It certainly doesn't sound as dramatic and full of suspense with my shoddy explanation as it did in the series, but if you've seen it I'm sure you remember it.

[Nightengale]

Meh, character deaths are overrated. It doesn't hurt the product, but thinking that it was one of the reason Destiny failed is pretty short-sighted.

In my opinion, there's really no such term as "C.E failed" since in the end of both SEED and Destiny, I was entertained by them and enjoyed it. There's a lot "could have beens", but that's another story..right below.

1. Pacing - I've always felt that GSD's pacing was tad of the mark. Character building episodes, plot episodes, battle episodes, climax moments, etc felt really unbalanced and out of place.

2. Lack of within-anime explainations - Gilbert was responsible for etc etc etc. Terminal is etc etc etc. Why this happened is etc etc etc. And I'm already discounting out Astray-specific details. There's just some things that the producers can't go, "lol, go buy magazines to find out the truth."

3. Character - Too many characters causing lack of character development. The fact that they're trying to add more character/change character to already well developed characters will limit character progression.

4. Story-telling - Trying the make the plot progress the story rather than having a story progressed based on the character. There ain't enough room in 50 episodes for the "insert number of character* of us.

5. Inconsistent/Bad mix of ideas - Akatsuki = old technology? Trying too hard to homage certain MSes. Jona's character rape.

There's probably others, but I'm not going to dig down my head to find faults in an anime I enjoyed.

Note that recycled animation isn't in the list, because I don't consider it that big of a factor in saying an anime failed.

[yamikage]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

In my opinion, there's really no such term as "C.E failed" since in the end of both SEED and Destiny, I was entertained by them and enjoyed it. There's a lot "could have beens", but that's another story..right below.

1. Pacing - I've always felt that GSD's pacing was tad of the mark. Character building episodes, plot episodes, battle episodes, climax moments, etc felt really unbalanced and out of place.

2. Lack of within-anime explainations - Gilbert was responsible for etc etc etc. Terminal is etc etc etc. Why this happened is etc etc etc. And I'm already discounting out Astray-specific details. There's just some things that the producers can't go, "lol, go buy magazines to find out the truth."

3. Character - Too many characters causing lack of character development. The fact that they're trying to add more character/change character to already well developed characters will limit character progression.

4. Story-telling - Trying the make the plot progress the story rather than having a story progressed based on the character. There ain't enough room in 50 episodes for the "insert number of character* of us.

5. Inconsistent/Bad mix of ideas - Akatsuki = old technology? Trying too hard to homage certain MSes. Jona's character rape.

There's probably others, but I'm not going to dig down my head to find faults in an anime I enjoyed.

Note that recycled animation isn't in the list, because I don't consider it that big of a factor in saying an anime failed.

QFT. I consider an anime to be a failure if it doesn't evoke much reaction from the fans or is easily forgotten by the fans (Y HALO THAR BRAIN POWERD). The fact that it divided Gundam fans across many boards still meant that it found its niche that likes/loves the product.

As for character deaths though, I would say that when it's balanced, it makes the overall product better. Too much deaths = less sympathy from audience while too little/no deaths (for the protagonists) = less credibility.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

What's wrong with bringing back characters? I mean how is it bad that Yuna becomes happy again at the end of FFX2? And heck, what's wrong with Murrue getting her guy back?

bah, happier ending != good ending

The scenes in which a charatcer dies, particularly one who is well developed, are some of the most emotional and moving scenes in a series. Their basically ususally amognst the best and most rememorable scenes in a series. When a character survives their death it ruins the power of that scene. It also kinda compromises all of the other deaths in the series; Seriously, i'm still kinda wondering if some of the characters that died in GSD are gonna stay dead

Also... i really liked the ending of FFX... seriosuly, when i saw the sneak peak for FFX-2 and saw the message orb that yuna recieved i was like "you gotta be kidding me"

3. Character - Too many characters causing lack of character development. The fact that they're trying to add more character/change character to already well developed characters will limit character progression.

nothing a few character deaths wouldn't cure =P

The thing that makes it good that lots of characters die is because you don't know if a character will die, and you don't know who will die. It adds suspense. Where as in Seed, we always know who will win, and don't have to think anyone people like will die.

this i can agree with... characters dying like that destorys that idea that the characters are immortal... In victory, i was could never be positive who would die, especially since some of them died in ways other then just getting shot down... other then usso, nearly all of the characters were fair game for the death (and usso was fair game in te last episode)

This is very unlike gsd where everyone from the old cast had a feeling of immortality...
in seed, the immortality feeling wasn't as strong but it was still there... there was just some characters that i really was expecting to see die... grant it, if they did die then it would have been even more moving to me

i guess it's kinda of a good in both cases... on one hand, common deaths make the series as a whole a lot more suspenceful, on the other hand rare deaths give the deaths in the series more emotion and impact (as long as it's done right and the character doesn't live afterward >.<)

One of the most memorable deaths in Gundam for me is...

Spoiler for Early Victory Gundam spoiler:

When a member of the Shrike team uses her mobile suit to stop the shuttle launch ramp from collapsing, and a BESPA soldier just flies over to her and stabs the MS in the cockpit. It certainly doesn't sound as dramatic and full of suspense with my shoddy explanation as it did in the series, but if you've seen it I'm sure you remember it.

i'll second that

[SNT1]

GSD wasn't a bad anime, it just wasnt up to par next to its predecessor. Although Kira's SF being untouched is a 1st for a Gundam series, and I really dont like the pwnage that much.

IMHO, a Gundam show doesnt need to have so many deaths to be good, and sometimes I even get more entertainment with an actual immortal character in Heero Yuy. That guy survived a self-destruct, fell on MS and buildings a couple of times, i mean come on, thats funny!

[Demongod86]

Heero Yuy was fucking ridiculous. I mean gee, the guy survives an MS detonation, survives falling on his head from absurd heights (even from 6 feet you'd have some major damage), and is a complete pwnage machine (him and Relena's godlike brother Zechs)...I mean what CAN'T he do? SF getting untouched...blame Rey and Shinn...their skills=no thx compared to Freedom.

[dom33]

yet your okay with mu being alive?he was in a damged mobile suit hit by a positron cannon in space!then the archangel's blast went through what was left!the chances of him surviving where lower than lacus'es IQ. demongod86 your going to start a flame war, with the way your talking.as for shinn's and rey's skill look at my future sig.

[SNT1]

positron = antimatter.

when a positron hits matter, the matter and antimatter should naturally cancel out, and should dissipate into gamma rays. Seeing that the strike even managed to block it with a physical shield and the AK reflecting it, I refuse to call the red attack 'positron'. I refer to it as 'more powerful beam'.

[dom33]

the minerva's tanhausser was an antimatter cannon so the suki should have been blown to smitherens yet it was unscratched.

[Shinji103]

Which points out another "did wrong" of CE: the Akatsuki. An MS that is 100% indestructible to beam weapons. A proper response is: "WTF??!!" That was an automatic fail when the thing completely block the Tannhauser without taking a scrath. You can't get any more plot-device than that. The Akatsuki is the ultimate cheapness of cheap. They could easily have made it simply invulnerable only to normal-strength beam rifle fire.

And on top of all that, its DRAGOONs completely rip off the Nu Gundam's funnels!!!! BASTARD!!!!!

[Crusader]

Well the battles in seed towards the end were pretty good, they seemed somewhat coordinated. GSD's battles weren't cordinated too good. I mean it did what wing did, but not as impressive as wing. In terms of Grunt vs Face characters. However Seed and GSD lacked meaningful character interaction.

[SNT1]

Which points out another "did wrong" of CE: the Akatsuki. An MS that is 100% indestructible to beam weapons. A proper response is: "WTF??!!" That was an automatic fail when the thing completely block the Tannhauser without taking a scrath. You can't get any more plot-device than that. The Akatsuki is the ultimate cheapness of cheap. They could easily have made it simply invulnerable only to normal-strength beam rifle fire.

so yeah, pit akatsuki against heavyarms custom or leopard destroy, and it will one of the worst gundam asswhooping ever... which brings me to something I didnt like in GSD...

...too much beam weapons...

...who used a standard kinetic weapon in that show anyway? besides freedom and gouf I cant think of any MS atm.

[JanthraX^]

Originally Posted by SNT1

so yeah, pit akatsuki against heavyarms custom or leopard destroy, and it will one of the worst gundam asswhooping ever... which brings me to something I didnt like in GSD...

...too much beam weapons...

...who used a standard kinetic weapon in that show anyway? besides freedom and gouf I cant think of any MS atm.

well Railguns maybe the standard kinetic weapon for ships and MS's, they just fire big slugs of metal at high speeds. Not good against agile units, good for broadsides tho

[monster]

Originally Posted by SNT1

who used a standard kinetic weapon in that show anyway? besides freedom and gouf I cant think of any MS atm.

Actually, a lot of mobile suits uses nonbeam weaponries in GSD. In addition to those you mentioned, there's Blast Impulse, Babi, Ash, Slash Zaku, Blaze Zaku, and of course, the gundams and their variants have CIWS. But beam weapons do get more attention.