Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha Force Manga Discussion

[Justin_Brett]

Other than getting slapped around again.

So if it's not an inconsistency, why'd you feel the need to call attention to it without saying so?

[Akiyoshi]

because people brought up the argument of Cypha sparing Signum's life on purpouse during their first fight which is a blatant lie xDU

[Justin_Brett]

The Hucks having different personalities is also something that was brought up. Cypha's one of the villainous ones, she does villainous things if no-one tells her not to.

[Akiyoshi]

Well, yeah, basically the only reason she escaped her second fight with Signum was because of Curren's orders xDU

[Kaijo]

Because if Cypha wanted to kill Signum, she would have cut off the latter's head. Signum was at her mercy; Cypha could have done anything o finish her. Medical technology is higher in this world, and thus a simple stab wound to the stomach is easily survivable. But she needed to put Signum down good enough to allow them to escape.

Perhaps a bit overboard, but this is Cypha, so it's also a good way of showing the Hucks have differences between them, too.

[Koveras Alvane]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Because if Cypha wanted to kill Signum, she would have cut off the latter's head. Signum was at her mercy; Cypha could have done anything o finish her. Medical technology is higher in this world, and thus a simple stab wound to the stomach is easily survivable. But she needed to put Signum down good enough to allow them to escape.

Huh, and here I was, thinking that Cypha let Signum live simply because such an obsolete weakling knight was beneath her notice.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Because if Cypha wanted to kill Signum, she would have cut off the latter's head. Signum was at her mercy; Cypha could have done anything o finish her. Medical technology is higher in this world, and thus a simple stab wound to the stomach is easily survivable. But she needed to put Signum down good enough to allow them to escape.

That implies Cypha knew about Signum's status as a defense program. And I wouldn't say a stab wound of that size, combined with her body being split open shoulder to hip twice, is "easily" survivable even with Mid's medical technology.

For any normal person, those wounds would have been quite fatal. If not death by shock, they'd die of bloodloss quite rapidly.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Keroko

That implies Cypha knew about Signum's status as a defense program. And I wouldn't say a stab wound of that size, combined with her body being split open shoulder to hip twice, is "easily" survivable even with Mid's medical technology.

For any normal person, those wounds would have been quite fatal. If not death by shock, they'd die of bloodloss quite rapidly.

Yup, there's not only the stab but also the quadrasected wound, also there wasn't any other TSAB agents besides Agito left and Cypha K.O ed Agito before leaving so the medical excuse is also pretty forced as well xDU

By the time Cypha didn't had a freaking idea of who Signum was (hell, i bet she didn't even knows who she is by now xDU).

Originally Posted by Koveras Alvane

Huh, and here I was, thinking that Cypha let Signum live simply because such an obsolete weakling knight was beneath her notice.

On the contrary that was less of a reason to let her live (failing to kill a puny knight would harm Cypha's reputation as a "better at killing" swordfighter as she called herself in front of Signum). It's ironic becuase Cypha specifically stated she wanted to use Signum's death as an example for others. If things were as Kaijo said the impalement wouldn't have ocurred because Signum was already perfectly disabled by the cross-slash that nearly diced Signum in four pieces (that's by no means a flesh wound).

Also it seems you're overestimating Mid-Childa's medical competence. Nanoha was put on recovery for over an entire year for much less than that ...and Nanoha is noticeably stronger than Signum. Heck, according to some fans, Mid-childan medicine is so lame they can't even fix the hand of a magical kngiht and had to replace it with a robotic prosthesis xDU

The only way such contrived theory can work is if the managa itself confrims that.

I think it work better as Justin put it: Cypha don't care about killing her victims until orders or strong circunstances force her to spare their lives (remember she was hapilly ready to finish off Quinn right on the spot until Tohma intervened xDU).

[LostSome]

How long since I last came here...

I`m pretty sure Cypha was serious about killing that public servant the first time...
It`s not fresh to my mind, but I think Cypha said something about Signum`s death serving as an example and the whole... you know... "Now die".

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Keroko

That implies Cypha knew about Signum's status as a defense program. And I wouldn't say a stab wound of that size, combined with her body being split open shoulder to hip twice, is "easily" survivable even with Mid's medical technology.

For any normal person, those wounds would have been quite fatal. If not death by shock, they'd die of bloodloss quite rapidly.

Stab wounds aren't necessarily fatal. Most people tend to survive even gunshots.

And at this point, I'd say any benefit Signum had as a defense program as far as injuries and such go, is probably gone. Vita had already noticed that they were healing slower as time went on. So I'd say Signum was close enough to being human to survive that as a normal human. But I'd restate that, if Cypha wanted to make sure Signum was dead, cutting off the head would have made sure of it.

But on closer inspection, as it relates to the main point, Cypha may not have known Signum was TSAB, and thus didn't know to hold back. She only called Signum a public servant, and thus could have thought Signum was a local authority.

[Sansker]

Signum was kind enough to identify herself as a member of SD6 and the TSAB so Cypha did knew she was a member of the Bureau and she beat the ever living shit out of her, even saying that with her death they will learn to mess around with the family. And as I say before Cypha kill 12 officers on a village Signum and her subordinates visit a few months away, again establish by Signum, and showing the Hückebein not caring if they kill officers or not. That is why I say their later reticence is a little odd and not really consistent with their previous self. Feels more like a thing the author put there to end the battle without blood and while not bad itself, I do need to point it out as a flaw on the plot. Just that.

In the end Cypha didn’t go all about to kill Signum but she need to take Thoma and run before the rest of the SD6 come around and you could say she was sure Signum will die from her wounds, which seeing how severe they were is not a bad assumption at all.

[Justin_Brett]

I dunno, Cypha also gave her that extra hit after she was on the ground. That probably wasn't necessary after how bad the first one was.

[Sansker]

Again, I just think she did try to kill Signum. TSAB officer and everything

[Kurohane]

^ Probably the inconsistency lies with assuming every officer would get the same treatment and they don't. What Curren most likely means is kill officers of fame or importance. Hayate is well known in the Bureau, even Curren said as much. I doubt the TSAB would go on a crusade for a dozen grunts, but one famous commander will cause some swift action. Furthermore, most members of SS6 are talented and well known mages and future elite. StrikerS brought that up by Teana mentioning that in episode 8.

[Sansker]

Maybe, but it will still make as much sense kill them to show up how strong you are. In the end there isn't a real wrong or right on that matter just the way you wish to take on the matter and Cypha seem to take the killing one, Curren later decide to stop it and to be fair they could just end everything there. Is just so odd to see a bad guy winning and then leaving, no matter how you try to explain it, when there isn't any threat from the good guys that could force them to.

[WarpObscura]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I'm honestly not sure what you're talking about here. The good guys don't need the book of the silver cross, per se, because they have no desire to create more eclipse infectees. Their main concern is shutting it down as a threat and to prevent bad guys from using it.

I think the point is that, " if the good guys could get their hands on the Book of Darkness before the Wolkenritter could finish it", the plot will be drastically affected, as he proceeded to detail. But if that happened to the Silver Cross... What then? It doesn't seem to make a difference. That seems to be the beef.

[Sansker]

Indeed, that is my point. Because how important and centric was the Book of Darkness to the plot. Here the Silver Cross was present as something similar and maybe even related to and ends being just a side note. When the thing that is meant to have the entire solution to the Eclipse falls on the hands of the good guys and they don't do anything with it, as show when three months happen in a row without an incident, I am starting to believe this wasn't important and make the characters that were working so hard on getting their hands on it in the first act look like idiots.

[Kaijo]

I'm not sure the point you are making, nor how the Book of Darkness came into this... the book of the Silver Cross is needed only to help more eclipse infectees(presumably) or some other nefarious purpose. The bad guys would want this. The good guys want to prevent it. It's not even clear the good guys know exactly what the Silver Cross book can and can't do. I think the whole point is, that's why they want Thoma, so they can study it. Shamal even says as much.

The Book of Darkness is different, since they pretty much knew what it was about very early on.

[Sansker]

I know they are different. What my point is that they are both the focus of the story. Like any other Lost Logia in all Nanoha seasons. You see in the first season the Jewel Seeds play a key role and while their hunt was put down to the side to make room for Nanoha and Fate friendship, they still were important for the antagonist to be use and to the main characters to keep a track off. Even force the final battle between Nanoha and Fate, something I am sure Fate did try to avoid in the past.

On A’s the Book of Darkness is even more central to the story and all the characters move and act because of it. The Wolkenritter want to complete it to save Hayate who is dying because of the book and the main characters knows that if they end the book it will be a disaster. So really who has a hold of that thing can change everything. If the main characters were to take the Book of Darkness away or all the Jewel Seeds away on the first season, the plot will be affected and the antagonist will react to such actions with a need and a rather fast and aggressive moves, because the Lost Logia is something that they are actually needing or want to.

What I am saying is that, in the end, the position of the Lost Logias will make for a plot change device while here the bad guys seem to take it rather well, to the point you even might ask if they even care. Yes, I say to study Thoma and the Silver Cross but it has been 3 months and rather to study it is has been more like Thoma just training to become a new character. You see this is the kind of things Force fails to me. In three months it was made no progress on the Eclipse and the bad guys don’t care like they did first, sending not one but two of their members to the field to get the Silver Cross and even ending going almost all of them at once. The story had a rather “fast” pacing and then goes back to the classic “emergency of the week” that we have on StrikerS ruining the feeling, the setting and the story so far, because is a story killer move.

How is that? Well, if everything was a race to get the Silver Cross and they get the Silver Cross… what now? You see, I am saying that they already got it. The main goal was solve half way in, so the rest isn’t really important but since we can’t end here we need to now move the focus from this to the other stuff that wasn’t important until now. The need of the author to just set Thoma as your standard Nanoha bureau mage character make him just put Thoma there and move him away from what I did consider a superior story. At least superior at this thing we have now.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Stab wounds aren't necessarily fatal. Most people tend to survive even gunshots.

That wasn't a simple stab it was full on impalement, besides it wasn't the only wound Signum had, Signum could lie in the grund perfectly dissabled with just the cross-slash but Cypha go for that extra mile and launched the killing blow. Sure behead Signum could be enough but so far we haven't saw graphic beheading on the Nanohaverse and i'm not sure if Tsuzuki wants to go to such lenght.

Also the impalement serves better dramatic purpouses in storytelling than decapitation. Sure, decapitation is more effective but that way you wouldn't be able to leve the fandom in expectation about if Signum will or not make it ...a heavy double slash through the entire torso, arms and legs followed by an impalement provoked by a broadsword in the center of the abdomen (you know, one of the vital areas of the human body) is a rise a high possibility of death, even by mid-Childan medicine standards (the fact no one was near enough to provid Signum with immediate first aid also rised the risk ...so my point of Cypha K.O.-ing Agito), we can't be so easyly sure Signum could survive that which was kind of the point xDU Decapitation would be an instant death which leaves no doubt whatsoever which is only usefull if Tsuzuki wants to kill someone for sure without any doubts.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

And at this point, I'd say any benefit Signum had as a defense program as far as injuries and such go, is probably gone. Vita had already noticed that they were healing slower as time went on.

I agree to this point. Otherwise Signum would have rised after the cross-slash to continue the fight a bit more instead of looking like the pansy wimp we saw on that battle xDU

Originally Posted by Kaijo

So I'd say Signum was close enough to being human to survive that as a normal human. But I'd restate that, if Cypha wanted to make sure Signum was dead, cutting off the head would have made sure of it.

Close but she's still a magical being, while she's a lot weaker than in StrikerS she still have much better chances of survival than a normal human Signum and Cypha were fighting in broad daylight, it was already night when the medical rescue team arrived at the scene. No matter how tough a normal human is ...it's impossible it could managed to survive injuries like that for hours without any kind of assistance (Agito remained K.O.'ed the entire time), i admit i don't know the specifics about how a guardian knight's body functions but they seem to lack certain human needs or at least to be able to ignore those for the purpouse of survival (i just wonder how Vita's lungs didn't flooded with blood at the craddle ..or how Signum didn't suffer severe nerve trauma because of all the deeps and simultaneous bisections xDU).

If Signum's life wasn't in any mortal peril there wouldn't be any tension but Hayate, Agito and Rein were very (and understandably) worried.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

But on closer inspection, as it relates to the main point, Cypha may not have known Signum was TSAB, and thus didn't know to hold back. She only called Signum a public servant, and thus could have thought Signum was a local authority.

Well, that was explained alreayd on posts above. I also doubt thatg was the case xDU