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Old 2018-10-07, 11:55   Link #121
zeando
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I mean yeah it is kinda dumb that there is absolutely no restriction placed on rookies to do jobs way above their capabilities but then again, the very existence of this whole Adventurers guild/quest based system is just bizarre game logic on the whole to begin with. No point in being pedantic about the smaller details.
That's actually one of the perks of weekly episode discussions, with a whole week to look over a single episode it's possible to overthink the little details, more than it would be possible by watching the whole thing without weekly pauses.
That overthinking can be something uplifting or upsetting depending on the person, and as predictions or analisys go, be accurate or not.

It could maybe help the discussion over the guild to keep in mind that episode 1 didn't give a full introduction of how the guild actually works. So taking infos from episode 1 and treating it as definitive, would be premature.
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Old 2018-10-07, 12:05   Link #122
Kuroageha
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Originally Posted by ~Yami~ View Post

I hope we could see the opening song next week...
10/10 for first episode
Wasn't there a sample out?
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Old 2018-10-07, 12:17   Link #123
DemonneoPT
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
You think adventurers guilds and quest-based systems existed in medieval times?
Well, goblins and magic were not a thing either. However, if those things did actually exist having guilds and quest-based systems would make sense. But then again, that is just one of the possible scenarios to deal with the situation
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Old 2018-10-07, 12:28   Link #124
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
The idea of large scale formalized training for a trade didn't exist in medieval times. They could have a apprentice system, I suppose, but it might be hard to get adventurers to agree.
Actually.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild

Quote:
Not all city economies were controlled by guilds; some cities were "free." Where guilds were in control, they shaped labor, production and trade; they had strong controls over instructional capital, and the modern concepts of a lifetime progression of apprentice to craftsman, and then from journeyman eventually to widely recognized master and grandmaster began to emerge. In order to become a master, a journeyman would have to go on a three-year voyage called journeyman years. The practice of the journeyman years still exists in Germany and France.
Wherever guilds were in place in medieval times one simply wasn't free to do the related job without their consent, and a guild wasn't just something you would become a member of and then decide to take any job as you saw fit. They decided what job you would do until you became a master.
By all practical means if a member of a guild did a very poor job it would tarnish the reputation of said guild, it wasn't really something they could let happen.

This is different from what you usually see in fantasy settings with adventurer guilds, even though the whole idea of "guild" is indeed based on medieval trade and artisan guilds.

Also, by the way, the first University was founded in 1088.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
It's not D&D, in that you don't have to prepare spells in advance. The priestess cast one Heal and two Holy Light, but it could have been three Heal, or two Heal and one Light, or whatever permutation of three spells.
Not all magic classes have to prepare spells in advance in D&D, That's the main distinction between a Sorcerer and a Mage.
There are also Favored Souls that are the equivalent of Sorcerers for the healers.

The downside of that is that while Mages and Clerics have a wide array of spells to choose from when they prepare them, Sorcerers and Favored Souls have only a few. It would seem that the main character in this story works like a Favored Soul.
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Old 2018-10-07, 12:35   Link #125
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeando View Post
That overthinking can be something uplifting or upsetting depending on the person, and as predictions or analisys go, be accurate or not.
To be honest with you, I kinda feel like we are over-analysing what is basically a lazy lift from a fantasy RPG.

Not that it actually mattered to me. It could turn out to be the most well thought out system but still fall under the Fantastic Aesop pitfall, when trying to go for "brutal realism".

Or maybe it'll be the next Madoka Magica. Who knows?
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Old 2018-10-07, 12:37   Link #126
KikeLyne
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First episode really sets the tone of the anime. Glad it is faithful alot to the source material or near-close to the manga.

Those rookies were like lambs to the slaughter.
Overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.
The martial artist, another soul battered and broken,cast aside like a spent torch
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Old 2018-10-07, 13:15   Link #127
francescoG1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
To be honest with you, I kinda feel like we are over-analysing what is basically a lazy lift from a fantasy RPG.

Not that it actually mattered to me. It could turn out to be the most well thought out system but still fall under the Fantastic Aesop pitfall, when trying to go for "brutal realism".

Or maybe it'll be the next Madoka Magica. Who knows?
Adventurers are just mercenaries, guild (sponsored by royals and citizen tax) is just a central hub who administrate requests and revenues just like a merchant guild. The rank system has only role to manage the different levels of skills. There is nothing "tragic" about this. Sure are you who overthink about realism?

I'm curious about an example of your realistic system.
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Old 2018-10-07, 13:32   Link #128
Haak
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I don't know. I don't think a "Adventurers guild/Quest-based economy system" could ever be convincing really. I made a point earlier about how limiting I think these RPG lifts can be to a story and how I don't think they belong anywhere outside a game (except maybe a parody).
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Old 2018-10-07, 13:36   Link #129
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KikeLyne View Post
Overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.
Overconfidence looked like a pretty fast killer, there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DemonneoPT View Post
Well, goblins and magic were not a thing either. However, if those things did actually exist having guilds and quest-based systems would make sense.
I'd say it still doesn't make sense. I could see a bounty placed on goblin heads, but mostly I'd expect the local lord to handle it like any other threat, with his own soldiers, and maybe his own specialists.
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Old 2018-10-07, 14:15   Link #130
DemonneoPT
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You can have both. Mercenaries would definitely be a thing if you could get precious materials from the monsters' body. Trying to legalize this business through a guild system could be a possibility. Having bounties to motivate these rogue warriors cleaning certain zones from problematic monsters is also viable. In the Witcher series you have soldiers that protect the villagers but you also have bounties or similar jobs given to mercenaries, especially to witchers, if the mission has high dificulty level since they were built to kill beasts in the first place. Games can have well thought stories and viable societies regarding this "what if" scenario about magic and monsters being a reality. It's not just a mechanic for the player to have fun since it can also be well assimilated into the game's lore.

In this link you can see a description of a game mechanic that usually makes no sense outside the gaming medium yet if you scroll down a bit and read the lore section, suddenly could be something used in a movie or tv series.
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Old 2018-10-07, 14:27   Link #131
Eater of All
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I don't know. I don't think a "Adventurers guild/Quest-based economy system" could ever be convincing really. I made a point earlier about how limiting I think these RPG lifts can be to a story and how I don't think they belong anywhere outside a game (except maybe a parody).
Taking the system wholesale and applying it is not realistic. But some aspects of it can make sense. Applied to modern times, I can post a "quest" on craigslist or in a local newspaper with a bounty and hope some bored teenagers take up the job. And if a certain category of requests like pet-searching has enough demand, that might warrant a dedicated filter on craigslist or even inspire an entire forum of registered users. The adventurer's guild can likewise start out as a local bulletin board in a town and evolve from there due to changing circumstances in the world.

I agree that building a world where the economics of adventuring makes sense is not easy, but it's certainly possible with meticulous consideration of racial balance/traits, availability of magic/items, and geography. I think most series just spare more or less effort describing these things depending on what stories they want to tell, and the audience pays more or less attention to these details depending on what kind of stories they like to see. One can fault the series for being lazy, or they can wait and see if this sacrifice is for a story that's worthwhile in its own way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I'd say it still doesn't make sense. I could see a bounty placed on goblin heads, but mostly I'd expect the local lord to handle it like any other threat, with his own soldiers, and maybe his own specialists.
I can imagine regions where a local lord would care, but also regions where maybe the lord doesn't want to deal with every request from one of his 500 villages. To the extent that there is law enforcement, they might only be used for extracting taxes, catching human crimes, protecting inner cities, etc, rather than entering dangerous areas to gather materials or slay beasts. Now it would be pretty bad for a local lord to not care at all about village girls getting kidnapped by goblins, but it's also possible for a request to the lord to dispatch soldiers to take time to get approved, so it would be faster to post a quest for adventurers rather than wait weeks to months for soldiers to arrive.
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Old 2018-10-07, 14:41   Link #132
francescoG1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Overconfidence looked like a pretty fast killer, there.


I'd say it still doesn't make sense. I could see a bounty placed on goblin heads, but mostly I'd expect the local lord to handle it like any other threat, with his own soldiers, and maybe his own specialists.
a local lord who risks his soldiers and money to save a village from the goblins or other monster...... The guild is supported precisely by these aristocrats, probably for them is better to let go "adventurers" instead own soldiers or city guard, probably with less money spent since the service is paid by those who are attacked or by those who have particular request. In facts "adventurers" are used for these "dirty" jobs and a lord can matain his "power" intact...

So guild look like a "Private military company"...

Last edited by francescoG1; 2018-10-07 at 15:06.
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Old 2018-10-07, 14:56   Link #133
zeando
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
To be honest with you, I kinda feel like we are over-analysing what is basically a lazy lift from a fantasy RPG.

Not that it actually mattered to me. It could turn out to be the most well thought out system but still fall under the Fantastic Aesop pitfall, when trying to go for "brutal realism".
Indeed that may be overthinking in a not-useful way, by overly focusing on a secondary story element (guilds aren't the focus of the story, goblins murder is) and giving it more credit and relevance than it has.

Though, most of the claims about the guild not making sense come from questions being raised without the effort to answer them. "There is no answer" or "plothole" have to be the most lazy answers to any question, or should be taken as "I'm unable to answer". Not even considering that some questions are just "made from spectators for the spectators", since most often stories don't have the time to fully develop everything, and it's up to the watchers and readers to fill the gaps.
Is there a reason for why guilds send newbies to their likely death? There should be a reason. Could be A, B or C.
Is that reason the most important thing in the story, will it get some focus? Probably not.

An other issue which may be bothersome or misleading, is that this isn't a pure fantasy setting with some game-like elements added in, this is a game-like setting with some deviations toward freeform fantasy.
I'm not sure if it would have been of any help to have the setting made clear into the serie descriptions. Probably not, as you already noted, few would have needed that being spelled out.

I sort of agree on your old point that what was originally folklore had been translated into game lore and mechanics, and now some of those game elements are making their way back into story lores. Making them second grade derivatives, quite unoriginal, and making fantasy lore without game elements a bit more rare.
In favor of recycled story elements it could be said that they make their use in making the works accessible to their intended audience, that is possibly people with more experience about gaming than about reading books.
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Old 2018-10-07, 15:09   Link #134
eiyuuou
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EP1: how to die as a noob on day 1

Spoiler for what rookies can kill:



How would you improve it?
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Old 2018-10-07, 15:16   Link #135
kukuru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twi View Post
Well, it is s a medieval setting in a world beset by monsters constantly with Goblins being on the low end of the totem pole and they're basically out in the boonies where the villages are. It wouldn't be a surprise some people couldn't read or write.
But it also Reading and Writing is one of the principles of civilization and reflect the nation/world's supporting institutions like education.

Basically it's a very good world building of a key point of Goblin Slayer. Knowledge is power.

Goblins are weak, and nothing special in of itself. But those are half baked knowledge probably based on hearsay. They're weaker then children, dumb, and savage, true to their desires, and inferior equipment (at least on base evolution). Those are all truths, but...

Basically in hindsight, if GS wasn't wrong in the head, he should have chosen the to become a adventurer instructor, or wondering priest or a government specialist that could have provided much more to society, but of course that would be boring.

Noobs dying is well deserved, even if it was for plot reasons. It's a harsh reality GS paints in fantasy clothing. Adventures are suppose to be specialist, but some specialists they turned out to be.

Of course there's a whole plot subtext here.

People are serious forgetting a key issue here we can't say for spoiler reasons.
[*SNIP*]

Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2018-10-08 at 06:38. Reason: Please don't say that something can't be mentioned for spoiler reasons and then mention the spoiler!
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Old 2018-10-07, 15:18   Link #136
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DemonneoPT View Post
You can have both. Mercenaries would definitely be a thing if you could get precious materials from the monsters' body. Trying to legalize this business through a guild system could be a possibility. Having bounties to motivate these rogue warriors cleaning certain zones from problematic monsters is also viable. In the Witcher series you have soldiers that protect the villagers but you also have bounties or similar jobs given to mercenaries, especially to witchers, if the mission has high dificulty level since they were built to kill beasts in the first place. Games can have well thought stories and viable societies regarding this "what if" scenario about magic and monsters being a reality. It's not just a mechanic for the player to have fun since it can also be well assimilated into the game's lore.

In this link you can see a description of a game mechanic that usually makes no sense outside the gaming medium yet if you scroll down a bit and read the lore section, suddenly could be something used in a movie or tv series.
You realize, your argument for the realism of the system is that other fictions use it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eater of All View Post
I can imagine regions where a local lord would care, but also regions where maybe the lord doesn't want to deal with every request from one of his 500 villages. To the extent that there is law enforcement, they might only be used for extracting taxes, catching human crimes, protecting inner cities, etc, rather than entering dangerous areas to gather materials or slay beasts. Now it would be pretty bad for a local lord to not care at all about village girls getting kidnapped by goblins, but it's also possible for a request to the lord to dispatch soldiers to take time to get approved, so it would be faster to post a quest for adventurers rather than wait weeks to months for soldiers to arrive.
That lord had better care if he wants to keep having 500 villages. Goblins annihilate whole villages, and become worse if you let them fester. Plus, I wouldn't expect medieval villages to have the cash necessary to hire mercenaries. And in the long run, since it is a regular thing, it'd be cheaper to hand the task to permanently employed people rather than temps. It doesn't matter if it's goblins or human bandits or even an invasion from a neighbor. It's the lord's job to deal with it. If you can't defend your demesne, you have no demesne.

(Also, I don't think the problem of a single goblin nest would go all the way to a "lord of 500 villages". I'd expect something more local would be enough.)
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Old 2018-10-07, 15:24   Link #137
DemonneoPT
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Well, yeah? Since we are talking about something that do not exist and never existed to begin with. So we can only guess and try to imagine a viable world with such characteristics. And my argument was also for Haak that thinks RPG mechanics can only make sense in a game.
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Old 2018-10-07, 15:26   Link #138
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeando View Post
I
Though, most of the claims about the guild not making sense come from questions being raised without the effort to answer them. "There is no answer" or "plothole" have to be the most lazy answers to any question, or should be taken as "I'm unable to answer". Not even considering that some questions are just "made from spectators for the spectators", since most often stories don't have the time to fully develop everything, and it's up to the watchers and readers to fill the gaps.
I heavily disagree with this perspective, but my experience with fandom has been far too coloured with people who just Fanwank everything. Pretty much any plothole can be explained given thought, but I have an extreme aversion to doing this and prefer to appreciate a story purely for what it is, warts and all. I've seen some ridiculous Fanwank that will even directly contradict an authors intentions just so they can see things their way. I feel like it's more insulting to the story to try and make excuses for it than to just call it like it is. If it's a plothole, then it's a plothole.

And in this instance I didn't really care about the plothole itself but the fact that the episode's tone of "brutal realism" is undermined by what seems like a plothole.

To be fair, I will admit that I am getting ahead of myself considering it is only the first episode, but considering the receptionist got off scott free I don't have a lot of confidence in the story to deliver. Not that I was expecting it to anyway. I'm just here for the cheap violence really.
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Old 2018-10-07, 15:33   Link #139
Applehell
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Kinda of mixed about the premiere. On one hand, I like a lot of the technical details such as atmosphere, the muted colors and animation. It sold did a good job of presenting Goblin Slayer as a seriously prepared hunter without him coming off as too single minded. However, I could done without the rapes, and urination scene which came across as tad fetishly with the framing. Overall dialogue between the Priest and GS was quite dry which is owed to script getting bogged by too many technical details/exposition about goblins and not enough natural dialogue.

I mean at end of the episode I don't see what she likes about him stick around so much. Yes he saved her, but neither really got to talk to each in a way that establish any kind of bond. It would have been nice at at least get some kind of internal monologue to draw from her about GS even if was just feeling relieved and her being too scared to go anywhere else without him. It just felt at end two people joined up because the plot said so and not some so of set acknowledge between each other. Hopefully, the interpersonal interactions improve next week and we get better sense of why she's hang around him.
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Old 2018-10-07, 15:44   Link #140
kukuru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
You realize, your argument for the realism of the system is that other fictions use it.



That lord had better care if he wants to keep having 500 villages. Goblins annihilate whole villages, and become worse if you let them fester. Plus, I wouldn't expect medieval villages to have the cash necessary to hire mercenaries. And in the long run, since it is a regular thing, it'd be cheaper to hand the task to permanently employed people rather than temps. It doesn't matter if it's goblins or human bandits or even an invasion from a neighbor. It's the lord's job to deal with it. If you can't defend your demesne, you have no demesne.

(Also, I don't think the problem of a single goblin nest would go all the way to a "lord of 500 villages". I'd expect something more local would be enough.)
Those are all "sort of" explained in contrived reasons, if we ever delve into the world building of Goblin Slayer.

Simple truth is, goblin's slayer's world can not talked about in parallel to our own world. We can not insert any obvious reasons and vice versa for basic plot reasons.
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