[MANGA] Bleach Chapter 325 Discussion

[lequory]

Originally Posted by cloak_and_dagger

People were complaining about Hitsugaya's Daiguren Hyourinmaru tll he brought out the 1000 year prison...all Ikkaku needs is a named attack. All we saw against Edorad was Bankai, then fight normally. That's like Tensa Zangetsu minus Getsuga Tenshou; no point to it is there . PLus I higly doubt Ikkaku is the type to stay stagnated in terms of strength. He probably trained hard with the Bankai.

Ikakku's Bankai is a direct attack. He said it himself that his Bankai is just a brute destructive force. So all he does it swing around the middle blade and get the red dragon fully lit and his bankai is at full power. Watch the edorado fight for reference.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

True, reports of Ikakku's successes do not note his bankai... Yamamoto picked him under the belief that he beat an arrancar using only his Shikai... What he did not realize is that Ikkaku needed Bankai to win and as such, to fight an arrancar without Bankai would put him at a serious handicap.

I don't really like that concept. Bankai is supposed to be the result of being a superior fighter, not a way to turn mediocre fighters into captain-levels. Ikkaku not being able to win a fight against a fraccion when the others are easily beating their opponents w/ shikai makes him look weak and doesn't give enough credibility to him having bankai in the first place.

It might be that Po is just that strong and Ikkaku got the worst match-up. Don't even if Ikkaku is really down yet. But if he really was K.O.'ed this easily, I think it's kind of cheap.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

I don't really like that concept. Bankai is supposed to be the result of being a superior fighter, not a way to turn mediocre fighters into captain-levels. Ikkaku not being able to win a fight against a fraccion when the others are easily beating their opponents w/ shikai makes him look weak and doesn't give enough credibility to him having bankai in the first place.

It might be that Po is just that strong and Ikkaku got the worst match-up. Don't even if Ikkaku is really down yet. But if he really was K.O.'ed this easily, I think it's kind of cheap.

Well, Ikkaku's lost against the Po is somewhat consistent with his record... i mean, the last arrancar he fought he was getting beaten to a pulp while using his shikai and Po being the fraccion of one of the top 3 espada is likely stronger (though the last arrancar was released)... And if Po is nothing but brute strength and defense, then for the two of them it's just like bashing heads until one gives... against other arrancar, Ikkaku might have been able to over power them or out maneuver them with his shikai... Po would indeed be ranked below Yami though, but when it comes done to it, other than Rukia who got seriously lucky, none of the VC's have fought one-on-one with an espada and won... Renji as well has Bankai but he doesn't hold a candle to Byakuya, and was getting beaten horribly but Espada #8... They may say Ikkaku could become a captain but that doesn't mean he would not be the weakest amongst them... Po probably is the strongest out of the 4; which would be saying a lot if Hisagi's enemy was really at captain level at the end...

when it comes down to it, Ikkaku does pretty much have the worst Shikai out of the 4... I mean, it's a tri-section staff, big whoop... it makes his fighting a bit more versatile, but that's about it... This is unlike Kira's and Yukichika's which have abilities that can give them a serious edge... Even Hisagi's Shikai seems to add more to what he can do because of how it attacks; His shikai really changes how he fights and it's easy to believe their is a lot of power in those spinning blades (unlike Ikakku's, their doesn't seem to be much power in his Shikai... doesn't seem like the wooden portion could do much damage)... The others can rely more heavily on their weapons while Ikkaku has to rely more on himself

And when it comes to Bankai... it's not really the result of bieng a superior fighter, not entirely... Subjugating the sword is only part of the job of obtaining Bankai... the first part however is managing to manifest the sword's true form so that it could be subjugated... how this is done is not clear but it seems like it has to do more with meditation than fighting... For instance we have Yumichika and Masumoto; we saw them trying to "talk" to their swords but they both had problems; Yumichika can't stand his sword's personality and Masumoto's is a good for nothing that's hard to work with... This all could lead to serious problems with either of them ever being able to Manifest their swords... they could actually have what it takes to subjugate and obtain Bankai, but they are stuck at the manifestation phase due to personality issues... Hisagi could be on the same level if not higher than Ikkaku, but he could be having trouble with the manifestation part of obtaining Bankai (though he could conceivably already have it)

[Langus]

Well a shinigami's zanpakto has a binding contract with their soul does it not? Each one reflects the personality and views of its owner.

Ikkaku's shikai and bankai rely on brute force because that's how he himself fights. He is not a defensive fighter thus he would not like a zanpakto to give him that kind of edge. Like Zarakai he'd rather go in and use his own fighting strength to beat his opponent to a pulp and that is exactly what his zanpakto is designed for. I don't think it necessarily makes it weaker than the others or shittier in any way. Zarakai's zanpakto can't even bankai but no one would deny that he is a formidable opponent.

Personally, I'm glad to see Ikkaku being owned a bit but I have a feeling this isn't the end for him. The way I see it, the rest of these fights have been cheap and too easily won. I'm actually looking forward to the rest of Ikkaku's fight to see how it turns out. I couldn't really give a shit about the others. They're all boring sub-par characters as far as I'm concerned anyway. :P

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Langus

Ikkaku's shikai and bankai rely on brute force because that's how he himself fights. He is not a defensive fighter thus he would not like a zanpakto to give him that kind of edge. Like Zarakai he'd rather go in and use his own fighting strength to beat his opponent to a pulp and that is exactly what his zanpakto is designed for. I don't think it necessarily makes it weaker than the others or shittier in any way. Zarakai's zanpakto can't even bankai but no one would deny that he is a formidable opponent.

The big difference however is that simple fact that Ikkaku is NOT Kenpachi... Kenpachi is a monster when it comes to brute force and strength... He can take hits like no other, and he can strike back with massive force...

Ikkaku on the other hand does not share that quality... Despite being a direct combat only fighter his strength is not all that impressive compared to other VC's, and is nothing compared to Kenpachi... When it comes to Physical strength on put him on about the same level or not to far above some of the other VC's(he might be the phsycially strongest out of them, but not by all that much).... and since his physical strength is not much better than some of the other VC's this puts him at a disadvantage against VC's who have Shikai that are more than a simple change in fight style... It's like, a lot of VC's that i think might loose in a sword fight against Ikkaku would actually beat him in a battle of Shikai since their Shikai's grant them an advantage that far outweighs Ikkaku's fighting skills with his shikai...

Not to mention Ikkaku's Shikai does NOT rely on brute force... in his fight against ichigo, Ikakku was not using brute force but skill and finesse; Kenpachi on the other hand just used his own raw dominating power... Against the his first arrancar Ikkaku's skill and finesse was made worthless by his opponents sheer brute force... When he used Bankai, he switched from skill to using brute force; it's only while using Bankai does Ikkaku fight more like Zaraki in that he just uses brute force... Really, aside from when he used his Bankai, we've never really seen Ikkaku strom the battlefield with raw dominating power in the same fashion that Zaraki does it

[Captain Yoruichi]

Even against that Arrancar, though, Ikkaku mentioned that he was lucky.

[Langus]

What he lacks in 'monster'-like abilities he makes up for in pure, unadulterated determination to win. No matter how badly he's getting the shit kicked out of him he always manages to turn it around. The only exception thus far has been his battle with Ichigo which for shonen reasons he survived, lost and continued on to fight another day.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Langus

What he lacks in 'monster'-like abilities he makes up for in pure, unadulterated determination to win. No matter how badly he's getting the shit kicked out of him he always manages to turn it around. The only exception thus far has been his battle with Ichigo which for shonen reasons he survived, lost and continued on to fight another day.

Determination does NOT make up for a lack of monstrous strength...
Again we look at his fight with the arrancar... His sheer determination was not enough as he was getting ripped apart while still using his Shikai... Sheer determination wasn't the only thing he used their, he also had his Bankai which is a brute force weapon... His determination when paired with a brute force weapon makes for a very potent combination... his Bankai gave him the 'monstrous strength' he normally lacks

As oppose to his shikai... In his fight against Ichigo, He made one final charge at Ichigo, he was using "unadulterated determination" but he was using a weapon that was designed for finesse, not brute force... Essentially, Ikkaku attempted to overtake Ichigo with the brute force of determination but he himself LACKED brute force... so what happened? it took only one last shot for ichigo to finish him off...

he "always" manages to turn it around... well considering how few battles he has had in the manga "always" is not really saying much...

[Langus]

I really don't care enough about this to argue with you. *wanders off*

[WONDERMIKE]

Seeing Ikkaku on the ground/messed up is nothing new, we all know it's part of his style to limit himself in every way so the fun can last longer, so basically wounds and blood don't mean much in general, you can't say he's weak just because he intentionally restrict his capabilities and fights in a stupid yet fearless way.

The big part in this is the destroyed pillar and the fact Po didn't show us his release while Ikkaku already started the fight in his shikai state. That means Po is way stronger than Leones was, so even Bankai is no winning guarantee anymore. Po could have overwhelmed him in an instant with this obvious gap of power. This could be the turning point in the whole big brawl where SS will break a sweat.

Originally Posted by Captain Yoruichi

Even against that Arrancar, though, Ikkaku mentioned that he was lucky.

but he didn't state why exactly he was lucky, perhaps simply because there was no hindrance to use his bankai.. he took all the beating throughout this fight, played the punching ball and never went "oh crap, I will die at this rate" like Kenpachi against NoiNoi and he finished off Leones who took much less damage -> don't say he is a lucky winner just because he's torn up after his fights

[Endrance]

I agree ikkaku could have used his bankai and po could have been stronger but with something as important as his job was he should have done it

[WONDERMIKE]

That's true, but the "fact" that he wouldn't stand a chance, even with bankai, kind of erases his guilt. I don't think it's Ikkaku who will confront Po from now on, it would be pointless² to do so as the pillar is already gone, fans would only hate him for not going bankai from the start. By letting him stay dead Kubo can save his face. And don't forget what OD said, Ikkaku isn't in the position to show us something new, so there's no real reason to feature him this time.

[Endrance]

I dunno if i wanna see ikkaku dead but i think he should stay out and i agree someone else should finish the job

[Pyrokinetic]

Well apart from ikkaku getting pawned, i enjoyed hisagi's fight. i dont know why people expected too much of his shikai, personally its the best shikai i seen so far, in terms of power i would say he was fighting at a near captain level only using his shikai. it seems his shikai just compliments his fighting abilities in addition it can be used as a long range and short range weapon, i dont care if he hasn't got any hax abilities like yumichika and that blonde kid, if they cant get him then their powers are useless. who knows maybe his bankai does have a special ability. hisagi is one of the most skilled VC fighters so far without using any special abilities and dont forget he can also use kido attacks. btw ikkaku wont die...

Spoiler for Hisagi's shikai:

[Ryuuken]

I knew from the beggining that Ikkakus enemy is a serious one, unlike the others...

Maybe this is an opportunity for the rest of of the K-Town crew (Urahara, Yoruichi, Isshin, Ryuuken) to show up and start kicking butt.

won't happen, that enemy level is still too low...


And for all of you guys who thinks Ikkaku may still win: Ikkaku failed to do his mission. the pillar is completely destroyed.
so when we are talking about war strategy, it would be better if ikkaku died, protecting the pillar
defeating this particular arrancar should be no problem, if someone helps and stuff
but the pillar never comes back...

[BleachOD]

Originally Posted by dragonmeister

1) Ikkaku is, like all members of the 11th division, awesome.
2) I think what you mean is I couldn't care less, not I could care less. The latter shows that you still have at least a tiny modicum of care, whereas the former shows that your care is as low as it could possibly be. (Sorry, this isn't an attack on you, it's just an attack against that phrase, I'm just a crazy grammar freak, don't mind me).

Don't be so anal about grammar. I don't get paid for this but thanks for the correction. I COULDN'T CARE LESS ABOUT Ikkaku.

How was chapter? Crab anyone?

[Ryuuken]

Ikkaku is, like all members of the 11th division, awesome.

Remember Aramaki Makisou. who yachiru calls maki maki ? he is awesome... ? =D

[HayashiTakara]

Don't Ikkaku loses his shirt when he goes Bankai? He still had his shirt on... I think his constant wanting to keep his bankai a secret lead him to lose the fight... But yeah, Ikakku and Renji have the same type, power type bankai. These seem to be the weaker types, as they seem to get their ass kick by a more versatile opponent.

[Scep]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Don't Ikkaku loses his shirt when he goes Bankai? He still had his shirt on... I think his constant wanting to keep his bankai a secret lead him to lose the fight... But yeah, Ikakku and Renji have the same type, power type bankai. These seem to be the weaker types, as they seem to get their ass kick by a more versatile opponent.

He didn't lose his shirt from the bankai, he lost it from the fire attack by edorado (iirc anyway).

Btw, people really think ikkaku's down already

[Fran~]

Kubo, please stop this... we want the Ichigo vs. Ulquiorra fight!!!