Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei LN - Archived Discussion

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by Jirachier

The ability to control psions completely and perfectly isn't so easy, even Miyuki has problems sometimes controlling her own power.
Tatsuya in the fight against Ichijou used Gram Demolition several dozens of times, are you saying that in then entire world there isn't people with at least 1/20th of his psion count.
Also if all it required was high psion count Miyuki would've already learned it and his father would've done the same and would have been a powerful anti magicians.
Just because the author made it seem simple by saying "you compress psion into bullets and fire them" doesn't mean that doing so is a simple task.

Forget 1/20th, it's probably on the order of 1/100th. Tatsuya had to fire off 14 Demolitions in that last exchange with Ichijou. We don't even know how many he had to fire before that.

The thing about the author is that you may have to consider that he really wants Tatsuya and Miyuki to stand like gods above people who are capable of terrifying feats like moving at supersonic speeds, altering probabilities, blocking missiles, cutting off the effects of gravity, etc. etc. (Miyuki is so beautiful that girls are willing to turn bi, Tatsuya is both powerful and nearly all-seeing, can could conceivably destroy the world by targeting something like a battleship with Material Burst, and can heal repair anything except for death. Oh, and he's a genius too.)

Mayumi, who is considered top-class in the world in terms of magical power, speed, and skill can't even cast one Gram Demolition. And Tatsuya can fire them off like they're going out of style.

The only things keeping him from being a typical Gary Stu is that he's a total siscon and troll. (Thank goodness for the siscon troll)

...I've gotten off track, but to reiterate, my point is that you probably shouldn't be putting limits to Tatsuya's abilities that the author doesn't explicitly spell out, because he clearly wants the two siblings to be like GODS.

Tatsuya power are being sealed by Miuyki and he still has no trouble keeping his power in check.
Most mages literally cannot cast it, just because something requires massive amount of psions doesn't mean people won't learn it, on the contrary it's considered to be one of the strongest counter magics there is and so if people with low level magic skill could learn it then they would because even if it costs a lot of psion they will become able to fight against high level magicians with it.

That makes no sense. Let's say a low-level magician casts it once, against a high level magician. Now the low-level magician is out of power and the high-level magician can beat him with ease. The problems with Gram Demolition is that it is very costly, short-range, and doesn't last long. In a duel, it is WORTHLESS unless you can cast it multiple times.

[Flere821]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Both the Miyuki Guard and the Lina Lovers Fan Club emphatically support the translation of the chapter containing the illustration from page 200 in volume 10. We feel that there is priceless insight to be gained in this chapter, which does not seem to be covered by any earlier web novel summaries. Any contribution to this common goal would be considered highly meritous!

The Chinese translators have just finished that part of Vol10 yesterday

Spoiler for fanservice:

The scene came out of nowhere, but if Miyuki wasn't already dead set on Tatsuya I might ship Miyuki + Lina (Incidentally, just about the rest of the girls in their class probably feel the same way at that point, as Miyuki initiated some Yuri "non-romantic" skinship right there in the changing room in plain view of the girls )

[Jirachier]

Originally Posted by Rasen

Forget 1/20th, it's probably on the order of 1/100th. Tatsuya had to fire off 14 Demolitions in that last exchange with Ichijou. We don't even know how many he had to fire before that.

The thing about the author is that you may have to consider that he really wants Tatsuya and Miyuki to stand like gods above people who are capable of terrifying feats like moving at supersonic speeds, altering probabilities, blocking missiles, cutting off the effects of gravity, etc. etc. (Miyuki is so beautiful that girls are willing to turn bi, Tatsuya is both powerful and nearly all-seeing, can could conceivably destroy the world by targeting something like a battleship with Material Burst, and can heal repair anything except for death. Oh, and he's a genius too.)

Mayumi, who is considered top-class in the world in terms of magical power, speed, and skill can't even cast one Gram Demolition. And Tatsuya can fire them off like they're going out of style.

The only things keeping him from being a typical Gary Stu is that he's a total siscon and troll. (Thank goodness for the siscon troll)

...I've gotten off track, but to reiterate, my point is that you probably shouldn't be putting limits to Tatsuya's abilities that the author doesn't explicitly spell out, because he clearly wants the two siblings to be like GODS.

Actually, I'm not limiting tatsuya it's the contrary, he's more of a god because not only does he have massive psion count but he also has complete mastery over his psions, a spell that requires both condition is more impressive than one that requires only one.

Originally Posted by Rasen

That makes no sense. Let's say a low-level magician casts it once, against a high level magician. Now the low-level magician is out of power and the high-level magician can beat him with ease. The problems with Gram Demolition is that it is very costly, short-range, and doesn't last long. In a duel, it is WORTHLESS unless you can cast it multiple times.

Imagina a low level Magician fighting Mayumi, ALL of his spells will be completely and utterly useless against her, but if he could shoot Gram Demolition ONCE that might give him a chance in a hundred to do something, without it there is 0 even if shoot weak spells for hours, One powerful shot is better than 100 weak ones.

[blackwhite67]

Originally Posted by Jirachier

Tatsuya power are being sealed by Miuyki and he still has no trouble keeping his power in check.

That's because Tatsuya is the one being sealed. He doesn't have to exert any effort, but it's a different story for Miyuki who's doing the sealing. Also, I think you're mistaking Miyuki's bouts of freezing things with rampaging psions. Rampaging psions alone cannot have any physical effect on the environment.

Releasing a Psion bullet, while in itself the simplest form of magic, requires extremely precise control in order to destroy just the activation sequence and avoid any extraneous damage, and shows superb skill on the part of the user.

This quote was taken from volume one when Mayumi shot down Honoka's magic. The psion bullet here is the same thing as Gram Demolition whereas if the former is a bullet, then the latter is a cannonball.

Originally Posted by Jirachier

Most mages literally cannot cast it, just because something requires massive amount of psions doesn't mean people won't learn it, on the contrary it's considered to be one of the strongest counter magics there is and so if people with low level magic skill could learn it then they would because even if it costs a lot of psion they will become able to fight against high level magicians with it.

The Magic Sequences forged by someone of Masaki's caliber could not be so easily disassembled, so overwhelming force was used to forcibly annihilate it, which required an outrageous amount of compressed psions. Even for Tatsuya, this was not an inconsiderable sum, though it was far beyond what an average Magician could produce even if they spent the entire day working at it.

You're missing the point here. Average magicians, even elite Magicians such as Mayumi, do not possess enough psions to use Gram Demolition even once.

Originally Posted by Rasen

Forget 1/20th, it's probably on the order of 1/100th. Tatsuya had to fire off 14 Demolitions in that last exchange with Ichijou. We don't even know how many he had to fire before that.

The thing about the author is that you may have to consider that he really wants Tatsuya and Miyuki to stand like gods above people who are capable of terrifying feats like moving at supersonic speeds, altering probabilities, blocking missiles, cutting off the effects of gravity, etc. etc. (Miyuki is so beautiful that girls are willing to turn bi, Tatsuya is both powerful and nearly all-seeing, can could conceivably destroy the world by targeting something like a battleship with Material Burst, and can heal repair anything except for death. Oh, and he's a genius too.)

Mayumi, who is considered top-class in the world in terms of magical power, speed, and skill can't even cast one Gram Demolition. And Tatsuya can fire them off like they're going out of style.

The only things keeping him from being a typical Gary Stu is that he's a total siscon and troll. (Thank goodness for the siscon troll)

...I've gotten off track, but to reiterate, my point is that you probably shouldn't be putting limits to Tatsuya's abilities that the author doesn't explicitly spell out, because he clearly wants the two siblings to be like GODS.

That makes no sense. Let's say a low-level magician casts it once, against a high level magician. Now the low-level magician is out of power and the high-level magician can beat him with ease. The problems with Gram Demolition is that it is very costly, short-range, and doesn't last long. In a duel, it is WORTHLESS unless you can cast it multiple times.

The Magic Sequences forged by someone of Masaki's caliber could not be so easily disassembled, so overwhelming force was used to forcibly annihilate it, which required an outrageous amount of compressed psions. Even for Tatsuya, this was not an inconsiderable sum, though it was far beyond what an average Magician could produce even if they spent the entire day working at it.

While we may not know how many times he shot it off before, this quote proves that 16+ Gram Demolitions worth of psions are enough to put a dent in half of his psion reserves. Even if Tatsuya was released from his seal, Gram Demolition wouldn't be very reliable.

[Jirachier]

@blackwhite67
I don't think what's being sealed is Tatsuya's half psion reserve, I think it's more along the line of his "skill" with magic.
There is almost no benefit in sealing half of his reserves since he can still fire off a huge amount of Gram Demolition(Also in that fight with Masaki he used much much more than 16 shots, he's been at it for minutes and it just happened that at the end he shot like 14 or something, so I guess he most've used around 40/50 shots) and for the rest of his more powerful spells like Mist Dispersal who requires a low amount of psion he must be able to use them almost indefinitely.
So just like how Miyuki can only use Cocytus when she's not sealing Tatsuya power and her overall magic skill becomes stronger the same thing must apply to Tatsuya and his disintegration magic must become easier to use and deadlier somehow.

[Rasen]

Imagina a low level Magician fighting Mayumi, ALL of his spells will be completely and utterly useless against her, but if he could shoot Gram Demolition ONCE that might give him a chance in a hundred to do something, without it there is 0 even if shoot weak spells for hours, One powerful shot is better than 100 weak ones.

One powerful shot is meaningful, if it can HURT the opponent. Gram does not.

It will stop any of the attacks in its way, and none of the attacks that go around it. (For instance, Mayumi can attack from all directions)

On top of that, it leaves the weak magician with nothing left. So unless they're like Tatsuya, and also trained their bodies to be ridiculously fast, they're going to get steam-rolled.

In contrast, look at Erika or Leo. By having spells they can use multiple times, they can keep attacking, boost their speeds, and if necessary, cover their retreat.

If a magician only has enough to cast one Gram, then not only are his options AFTER the casting limited, but also BEFORE the casting. If he uses too much before, then he can't cast Gram. In short, for most magicians, Gram is only worthwhile in a duel, and even then, it's mostly worthless.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by blackwhite67

While we may not know how many times he shot it off before, this quote proves that 16+ Gram Demolitions worth of psions are enough to put a dent in half of his psion reserves. Even if Tatsuya was released from his seal, Gram Demolition wouldn't be very reliable.

...Nowhere in that quote does it say anything about "half his psion" reserves, so I'm curious where you're getting the figure.

Also, I don't think Miyuki sealing his ability has anything to do with his reserves, just how much he can use in a single moment. Like a bottle with a small mouth, versus a gatorade bottle of the same size. But I'm just guessing on that part.

[Godot the lost]

hello fist time posting. read alot of post. all intersting but for now i remember Kazama telling Elder Kudou in vol.4 chapter 12 that Tatsuya was restricted by several layers of limiters. if so isent Miyuki just one of the limiters set up on him?

[Jirachier]

Originally Posted by Rasen

...Nowhere in that quote does it say anything about "half his psion" reserves, so I'm curious where you're getting the figure.

Also, I don't think Miyuki sealing his ability has anything to do with his reserves, just how much he can use in a single moment. Like a bottle with a small mouth, versus a gatorade bottle of the same size. But I'm just guessing on that part.

Nop, it doesn't seal how many targets he can hit at the same time, in the firing range at the temple/house of Yakumo when he was practicing there he used it simultaniously on 36 targets.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by Jirachier

Nop, it doesn't seal how many targets he can hit at the same time, in the firing range at the temple/house of Yakumo when he was practicing there he used it simultaniously on 36 targets.

It does if Gram requires a LOT of psions.

Which it does. This is confirmed by Mayumi.

Here's a thought exercise. Let's say sealed Tatsuya can output 1400 Psions in an instant.

Now, if Gram requires 100 Psions at any given moment, then he can fire at maximum 14 Grams. It doesn't matter if he can target 36 objects, he can only hit 14 at a time.

Now if Decomposition requires 20 Psions, then he can fire at 70 targets at once. But then his ability to target is limited to 36.


But if unsealed Tatsuya can output 2800 psions, then:

He can fire 28 Grams in an instant.

[blackwhite67]

Originally Posted by Jirachier

@blackwhite67
I don't think what's being sealed is Tatsuya's half psion reserve, I think it's more along the line of his "skill" with magic.
There is almost no benefit in sealing half of his reserves since he can still fire off a huge amount of Gram Demolition(Also in that fight with Masaki he used much much more than 16 shots, he's been at it for minutes and it just happened that at the end he shot like 14 or something, so I guess he most've used around 40/50 shots) and for the rest of his more powerful spells like Mist Dispersal who requires a low amount of psion he must be able to use them almost indefinitely.
So just like how Miyuki can only use Cocytus when she's not sealing Tatsuya power and her overall magic skill becomes stronger the same thing must apply to Tatsuya and his disintegration magic must become easier to use and deadlier somehow.

The only other factors besides psion reserves in magical technical skills would be interference strength, scale, and casting speed. In any case, back in volume 7, when Miyuki released his seal Tatsuya released a massive storm of psions so I know for a fact that it seals his reserves. As for benefit, it would be extremely conspicuous for him to walk around with such a huge supply of psions that any magician could perceive.

Originally Posted by Rasen

...Nowhere in that quote does it say anything about "half his psion" reserves, so I'm curious where you're getting the figure.

Also, I don't think Miyuki sealing his ability has anything to do with his reserves, just how much he can use in a single moment. Like a bottle with a small mouth, versus a gatorade bottle of the same size. But I'm just guessing on that part.

Got it from the summaries of web arcs 5 and 6.

Transformation descended immediately.

A violent array of photons, enough to sear the eyes, burst from Tatsuya's body.
These were no photons, but psions wrapped in physical light.
Tatsuya opened his eyes and rose to his feet.
Staggeringly active psions coursed around him.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by blackwhite67

The only other factors besides psion reserves in magical technical skills would be interference strength, scale, and casting speed. In any case, back in volume 7, when Miyuki released his seal Tatsuya released a massive storm of psions so I know for a fact that it seals his reserves. As for benefit, it would be extremely conspicuous for him to walk around with such a huge supply of psions that any magician could perceive.

The bursting of psions doesn't necessarily mean it seals his reserves. (You could be right, I'm just saying the visual description doesn't prove much) Think of it like a faucet: if you leave it open 1/4 of the way, a small stream of water comes out. If you open it all the way, a large stream of water comes out. But the water tank(reserve) remains the same.

Or, if you like, a dam. If the dam bursts, there is a sudden surge, but then the flow eventually calms down. (Similar to Tatsuya getting it under control). However, the size of the reserve (the river that feeds into the reservoir) remains the same.

[Jirachier]

@Rasen
Even with the seal in place we saw him fire off more Gram Demolition than his limit of simultanious targeting.
Also just because Tatsuya can fire say 100 Gram Demolition doesn't mean he can choose to use them all at the same time, his limit is between 36 and 24 depending on the situation.

@blackwhite
interference strength, scale and casting speed are just some of the obvious things in magic, you can't just standarize everything and say they belong to these 3 categories, some people are born with talent in a specific area of magic while they are bad at another, this is something that has nothing to do with these 3 criterias for example.
Myuki uses her mental magic to seal off Tatsuya's power and when the author was describing how she is doing so he also said she is sacrifying half of her power to do so, and we saw how her magic abilities become much more powerful once she is no longer limiting tatsuya's abilities and she can use her strongest spell only when the seal is no longer on, something that has nothing to do with psion count.
That's not a benefit, to begin with people can't just see how much psion a person has, Mayumi only figured out that Tatsuya has massive reserves of it when he actually performed a spell that uses it a lot of it, before that she had no idea. Also the seal on his power I don't think it was placed on when he was younger, it must've happened after he first used Material Burst for the first time 3 years ago.
And even if we assume that half of his psion count is being sealed in which case when he was fighting Masaki he only had half of it, with just that Mayumi said that was big and he was able to spam gram demolition to his heart's content, so did the seal actually do anything to make tatsuya weaker ? unless he's fighting an entire army by himself he will never need twice the amount of psion he has. Maya must have placed the seal on him to weaken him not just for fun.

As for the array of psion displayed when the seal was removed, that's just the author wanting to make the scene look awesome.

[blackwhite67]

Originally Posted by Rasen

The bursting of psions doesn't necessarily mean it seals his reserves. (You could be right, I'm just saying the visual description doesn't prove much) Think of it like a faucet: if you leave it open 1/4 of the way, a small stream of water comes out. If you open it all the way, a large stream of water comes out. But the water tank(reserve) remains the same.

Or, if you like, a dam. If the dam bursts, there is a sudden surge, but then the flow eventually calms down. (Similar to Tatsuya getting it under control). However, the size of the reserve remains the same.

I think you've misunderstood something. Just so we're clear, psions aren't actually stored in the body. They're all over the place. Magicians just absorb and channel them into spells. So it's not actually accurate to call them reserves so much as the quantity of psions a magician can manipulate. Also, it should be noted that this quantity is set and cannot change. So by your analogy, Miyuki place a divider in the tank. The extra room is still there, but it's unusable.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by Jirachier

@Rasen
Even with the seal in place we saw him fire off more Gram Demolition than his limit of simultanious targeting.
Also just because Tatsuya can fire say 100 Gram Demolition doesn't mean he can choose to use them all at the same time, his limit is between 36 and 24 depending on the situation.

No, with the seal in place, we saw him fire off 14 Gram at once. 14 is less than 24 and 36, his limit for number of targets AT THE SAME TIME.

24 is greater than 16 (the number of Masaki's attacks), so why did he only fire off 14? Because Gram is TOO expensive.

[blackwhite67]

Originally Posted by Jirachier

As for the array of psion displayed when the seal was removed, that's just the author wanting to make the scene look awesome.

In any case, you agree that the seal most certainly affects his psion count? No matter how you dice it, you can't explain that scene away with just the author wanting to make it look awesome. I never said that the seal didn't affect his other magical skills, but they pretty strong already. As for speed, scale, and power, all magic can be graded by this criteria. Magic is neurological so you can't really break the speed at which the brain processes information and Tatsuya already has Flash Cast, which essentially gives him the fastest casting speed in the entire world. Power? He disintegrated an entire truck even while under his seal. Interference strength? According to the web arc summary of the last battle against the parasites, Tatsuya was stated to have an interference strength on par with Lina and Miyuki. once again, this was while under the seal.

Originally Posted by Rasen

No, with the seal in place, we saw him fire off 14 at once. 14 is less than 24.

24 is greater than 16 (the number of Masaki's attacks), so why did he only fire off 14? Because Gram is TOO expensive.

I think you guys got the numbers mixed up.

"Speaking of which, Onii-sama, when could you handle 36 targets at the same time?"
These words weren't out of concern for her brother but more because she couldn't contain her excitement.
"I remember that 24 was your limit three months ago."
Miyuki was referring to the number of targets that could be sniped by magic at the same time. Even though the Specialized CAD was shaped like a handgun, that did not mean the magic was fired from the muzzle. If this was a Generalized CAD, it might not even be in the shape of a gun.
Modern magic in the form of the Four Great Systems and Eight Major Types relied on Eidos manipulation of the chosen target rather than using magic bullets to shoot at a target. Thus, so long as one could focus on the targeted phenomenon, it was possible to target multiple instances of the same phenomenon.
To accomplish this, each of the replicated targets needed to be defined and considered simultaneously.
Rather than lumping all the targets together and identifying all the phenomena together and changing them at once, magic needed to be applied to each individual target, so it was necessary to identify the subtle differences between each of them.
If the number of the targets was only one digit, then anyone could accomplish this with sufficient training. Anything above that was the realm where qualities other than magic were required, as even adding one target became incredibly difficult.
Miyuki's eyes shone brilliantly. Needless to say, this was her bro-con personality on full throttle.
However, Tatsuya only laughed and shook his head at his sister's question.
"No, although this opponent does actually retaliate, it is more like they were set to wait to retaliate. In live combat without any breaks in between, currently 24 is already my limit."

As for the match between Masaki and Tatsuya, that was not simultaneous targeting. Simultaneous targeting is targeting multiple bodies for one spell. During the battle, Masaki casted 16 individual shots. Since they did not occur at the same time, Tatsuya couldn't simultaneously target them since if he waited until after the 16th shot to take them all out at the same time, he would've been hit.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by blackwhite67

I think you've misunderstood something. Just so we're clear, psions aren't actually stored in the body. They're all over the place. Magicians just absorb and channel them into spells. So it's not actually accurate to call them reserves so much as the quantity of psions a magician can manipulate. Also, it should be noted that this quantity is set and cannot change. So by your analogy, Miyuki place a divider in the tank. The extra room is still there, but it's unusable.

Mmm....I think my analogy holds just fine in terms of a valve in a tank, or a dam.

Let's go with the dam, because it's actually closer.

The dam -> the magician's output

The reservoir -> the magician's reserves

The river -> the environment feeding the magician psions.

If the dam is opened widely, or if it bursts, there is a momentary surge, before the flow stabilizes. Sounds exactly like Tatsuya's situation. At least within this analogy, a divider would not affect either the dam or a tank, because the valve or dam controls how much actually leaves.

[waffler]

i read that part and it said that he wasnt going to make it on time instead of he didnt have enough psions to blow away the 16 attacks so it never said anything about gram demolition using too much unless i misread it o.o

[Jirachier]

@Rasen
the reason he fired off 14 Gram Demolitions and not 24 is because taking in all the psions to use Gram Demolition 24 times is too big for him to take it all at the same time from around him, so while he could've done it if it was 14 then another 14, he can"t do it in one shot.
When he was training and used 36 shots at the same time the seal was in place, he just wasn't using Gram Demolition but Mist Dispersal.

@blackwhite67
Not mostly certainly, it's possible that it's just happens that his psion count gets limited(which would be weird considering how much psion he has even when the seal is in place) but there is no way that the purpose of the seal is to limit his psion count something that would only be of any usefulness if he is fighting a hundrerds of enemies.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by waffler

i read that part and it said that he wasnt going to make it on time instead of he didnt have enough psions to blow away the 16 attacks so it never said anything about gram demolition using too much unless i misread it o.o

See the thought exercise I posted earlier. If his output is restricted, then the number of psions he can use to cast Gram on multiple simultaneous targets is limited. Since he is at close range with Masaki, he doesn't have time to fire off 14 and then another 2.