Clannad ~After Story~ - Episode 16 Discussion / Poll

[War_Lord]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Dude, she WANTED to have her baby! What's so hard to accept about it?

I accept what she wants, but I disapprove of her going through with it. I just don't think it was the smart thing to do given the circumstances she was in.

[Ithekro]

People have done dumber things and lived. It is very human.

[Proto]

I accept what she wants, but I disapprove of her going through with it. I just don't think it was the smart thing to do given the circumstances she was in.

Humanity is not known to be a species that goes around life running min max matrices every time they face a decision though

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by War_Lord

Oh god, not that instincts bull crap. Whatever, I'll consider that a possibility even though I doubt it. Its more likely to be the case with the lower food chains, not humans whom have rationality.

Humans ain't rational. We like to think we are, but we're just as instinct and emotion-driven as any other creature. Only difference is that we believe we act upon logic.

Originally Posted by panzerfan

War_Lord has every right to use the word retarded as see fee, although there are times when the already limited freedom of speech has to give way to something more intrinsic as say self-preservation, or maybe to escape accusation of bigotry.

The term "retarded" should only be applied to individuals diagnosed with mental retardation.

What he's looking for is "stupid", "naive" or "foolish".

Originally Posted by War_Lord

I'm visioning myself in her shoes and getting an abortion lol....

Nagisa would NEVER kill her own baby. NEVER. Not to save her own life.

You're looking at it from your own, limited viewpoint. Broaden your horizons.

Originally Posted by War_Lord

Irrational my ass. If my body is weak to the point where I'd miss my senior year of highschool two times in a row, then I'm sure as hell not even gonna try to have a baby.

That's YOU. This is NAGISA.

Originally Posted by Proto

Humanity is not known to be a species that goes around life running min max matrices every time they face a decision though

Exactly. Humans will never see life in terms of cost-benefit. Unless they're incapable of emotion. Like Vulcans.

[War_Lord]

Originally Posted by Starra

Because obviously, you know what it feels like being pregnant.

Do you have to? Many people here don't, but they voice their opinions about it, I'm doing the same.

Nagisa would NEVER kill her own baby. NEVER. Not to save her own life.

And thats why I consider her a reckless fool.

You're looking at it from your own, limited viewpoint. Broaden your horizons.

That was in response to Panzerfan's post about putting yourself in their shoes. I did and that was what I came up with.

Humans ain't rational. We like to think we are, but we're just as instinct and emotion-driven as any other creature. Only difference is that we believe we act upon logic.

We act upon logic better than any creature on this planet. Can a monkey have a discussion like this? No, don't think so. As a logical creature, Nagisa has no good excuse as far as I'm concerned. Sorry, no sympathy points from me. That was a bonehead move she did.

[RandomFlameStrike]

Tch Warlord her body isn't THAT weak. You don't know the details of her illness and considering the circumstances it's not like it ravaged her body to the point where she was physically disabled. She was in bed because of a horrible FEVER during the winter time. It's not like her reproductive systems were damaged. She was killed off by a bunch of random factors conviently convering to form a plot device.
If she was told "You will die if you have this baby." and still had it/Tomoya allowed it, then that would be horribley stupid. But it was "Hmm there's a risk that you might die if you have the baby. But there's also a good chance that you'll survive, and that chance increases if you have medical care."
Saying that she's stupid for having a baby because she happened to die in child birth is like saying she is stupid for driving and dieing in a car carsh. Like: Oh she died in a car crash, damn she's retarded for driving! Granted, the risks of dieing in a car crash are lower but the point remains the same.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by War_Lord

And thats why I consider her a reckless fool.

And that's why I consider her a selfless human being.

Originally Posted by War_Lord

We act upon logic better than any creature on this planet. Can a monkey have a discussion like this? No, don't think so. As a logical creature, Nagisa has no good excuse as far as I'm concerned. Sorry, no sympathy points from me. That was a bonehead move she did.

Yes, what a boneheaded move. Not murdering her daughter. How dumb of her.

Originally Posted by RandomFlameStrike

Like: Oh she died in a car crash, damn she's retarded for driving! Granted, the risks of dieing in a car crash are lower but the point remains the same.

Actually. I think the risks of dying in a car accident is higher than the risk of dying from childbirth.

But I'm not sure.

[War_Lord]

Originally Posted by RandomFlameStrike

Tch Warlord her body isn't THAT weak. You don't know the details of her illness and considering the circumstances it's not like it ravaged her body to the point where she was physically disabled. She was in bed because of a horrible FEVER during the winter time. It's not like her reproductive systems were damaged. She was killed off by a bunch of random factors conviently convering to form a plot device.
If she was told "You will die if you have this baby." and still had it/Tomoya allowed it, then that would be horribley stupid. But it was "Hmm there's a risk that you might die if you have the baby. But there's also a good chance that you'll survive, and that chance increases if you have medical care."
Saying that she's stupid for having a baby because she happened to die in child birth is like saying she is stupid for driving and dieing in a car carsh. Like: Oh she died in a car crash, damn she's retarded for driving! Granted, the risks of dieing in a car crash are lower but the point remains the same.

Thats the problem, no one knows the details of that disease. In other words, there was no telling how serious it could get. But I will say that based on obvervation, she was unfit to give birth. Who knows, perhaps even poor Ushio got her disease now.

[panzerfan]

I have to admit, pro-life camp would say that abortion amounts to murder. I am pretty sure that Nagisa who wants a child wouldn't have even considered killing Ushio in exchange for her life.

Perhaps it should be noted that abortion is not much safer than childbirth. Therefore, one again is trying to be a wise guy and say something that would amount to "sure, just don't have sex and kill off having a baby in the first place and it'll be fine"

Suddenly, I have to say that the logic of taking a risk in abortion is very questionable. I refuse to call the one suggesting this retarded for it is a valid choice for many.

Alas, I want to repeat that PERSONAL ATTACK IS NOT WARRANTED. Please stay civil in the discussion/

[RandomFlameStrike]

It's nice that War_Lord thinks of an unborn fetus as an item that you can get rid of if it inconviences you. The choice is not "Lol get rid of this thingy in your womb and u live!" it's "You're chances of surviving go up if you kill your daughter/son, but you can take a risk and he/she will definatly live"

[LunarSun]

well like u said we act upon logic better than any other animal on this planet

and her logic as a mother is that she wishes to have the baby and im sure all mothers would protect their child over themselves, if nagisa acted upon basic instinct she would save herself...but she didnt and she gave up her own life to have the baby even tho she knew there would be complications

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by LunarSun

if nagisa acted upon basic instinct she would save herself...but she didnt and she gave up her own life to have the baby even tho she knew there would be complications

Basic instinct is more like "PROCREATE! PROCREATE!"

She'd never give up her baby.

[War_Lord]

Well I guess its that whole "damned if you do, damned if you don't" dilemma. Since she felt so strongly about giving birth, if she were to actually go against her own wishes she probably wouldn't be able to live with herself. Then the whole relationship would go to hell after the abortion (assuming even that goes through okay since panzerfan pointed out that its equally risky). I'll just come to terms with the conclusion that no choice was a right one.

Thanks for having this somewhat intellegent discussion about a serious issue. I forgive Nagisa since she stuck with her own belief and I won't have to hear her sing that damn dango song anymore.

[Ithekro]

I don't think you'll be able to escape the dangos for some reason.

[War_Lord]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

I don't think you'll be able to escape the dangos for some reason.

You're scaring me...

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by War_Lord

You're scaring me...

Dango, dango, dango, dango.

DANGO DAIKAZOKU!

[Ithekro]

Using a song that makes people cry as an combative tool....interesting.

The Dangos seems to be one of those childhood things one latches onto and doesn't forget. Sometimes it is a TV show...sometimes its a movie...sometimes it a baseball team....it just depends on the person.

Since there are Dangos all around Nagisa's life...and Tomoya's place now...and since they still seem to be sold in their modern day...you should expect it to effect the child of Nagisa. I wouldn't put it past Nagisa's parents to sing that song to their grandchild...and thus the grandchild to sing that song as well.

There is no escape from Dango Daikazoku.

[Sheba]

Dango was Nagisa's Transformers, Village People, Ah-ha or Hokuto no Ken (yes, I grew up with that). It's something that reminds you of the time when the world appeared so big yet so simple to you.

[TooPurePureBoy]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Basic instinct is more like "PROCREATE! PROCREATE!"

She'd never give up her baby.

If only Tomoya could have kept it in his pants and only got her pregnant at a time period that would allow for her to give birth in the spring or summer when she was usually at her healthiest. Damn kids and their raging hormones killed "my" Nagisa!

[Gundampilotspaz]

Dango, dango, dango, dango......