Ore no Imouto - Episode 7 Discussion / Poll

[Hoodspirit]

@Saturn Beaver
We only have seen 7 episodes so far and in these 7 episodes there have been only 3 problems of other people than kirino, 2 of those 3 include kirino though. You pointed out the problem of Manami, the single one without Kirino. The other 2 have been Ayase and Kureneko but since they have to do with Kirino it is hard to recognise. Fact is Kyousuke helped Ayase too, and she even thanks him for the lie in the message she sent him. Kureneko is very hard to tell by the anime only since they cutted a very important scene out of it. It was when Kureneko was sitting alone in the living room, note she did not go home. Kyousuke brought them to spend the evening together.

Spoiler for Ore no Imouto ga konna ni kawaii wake ga nai episode 7 missing scene kureneko leaving:

When Kureneko is about to leave she asks why Kyousuke does so much for his sister. He claims that he does not know why. kureneko claims him to be a masochist upon that answer which he declined as well. then she shortly drops her goth-mask and says jealous that Kirino has such a good brother.

I understand your opinion about the anime skipping a lot of details. not sure why they do that or what their plan is on where to end the anime and how much more they make up on their own. we will just have to be patient.

I cannot agree on the "taking for granted" attitude of Kirino though. With only 2 scenes where she demands his solution, as stated in last post, we have not much evidence for that. She is helpless in both situations, when Ayase runs into them it is a surprise, the second situation was after her own attempt of making up with Ayase failed partly. Her eyes might have looked too aggressive, but that's how she gets kyousuke to do something. As 'reward' she spends time with him playing a game via multiplayer mode. might be the first game they played together in years. All other situations Kyousuke acted on his own, or Kirino made him feel guilty before asking for help (porn in browser-history, impossible request to get hit by a truck, ect.).

We do not know if Kirino apologizes to Kureneko or Saori. We only know what happens around Kyousuke and I doubt she is saying sorry to kureneko or saori in front of kyousuke.
Despite working as a joke the dump truck sentence might have been also used as filling up the guilt-bank to make a reasonable request more accepted. this is one of the few scenes converted from the novel correctly and in order in this episode. But this again is just speculation as we cannot see Kirinos mind, just Kyousuke's.

[Saturn Beaver]

Originally Posted by Hoodspirit

@Saturn Beaver
We only have seen 7 episodes so far and in these 7 episodes there have been only 3 problems of other people than kirino, 2 of those 3 include kirino though. You pointed out the problem of Manami, the single one without Kirino. The other 2 have been Ayase and Kureneko but since they have to do with Kirino it is hard to recognise. Fact is Kyousuke helped Ayase too, and she even thanks him for the lie in the message she sent him. Kureneko is very hard to tell by the anime only since they cutted a very important scene out of it.

Well, for Ayase he was just helping her indirectly though...what's he's more interested in is saving his sister's relationship with her best friend. Either way, it's still too strongly attached to Kirino. About Kuroneko, yeah, as an anime-only watcher I didn't get that at all.

Originally Posted by Hoodspirit

Spoiler for Ore no Imouto ga konna ni kawaii wake ga nai episode 7 missing scene kureneko leaving:

When Kureneko is about to leave she asks why Kyousuke does so much for his sister. He claims that he does not know why. kureneko claims him to be a masochist upon that answer which he declined as well. then she shortly drops her goth-mask and says jealous that Kirino has such a good brother.

I understand your opinion about the anime skipping a lot of details. not sure why they do that or what their plan is on where to end the anime and how much more they make up on their own. we will just have to be patient.

Spoiler for reply:

Wow, I think that's quite an important scene they cut. At least, the part where Kyousuke realizes that he does goes out of his way for Kirino is quite important to me, if I see it then perhaps I won't be that bewildered about his behavior. And the part where Kuroneko says that is pretty sweet for me.

Originally Posted by Hoodspirit

We do not know if Kirino apologizes to Kureneko or Saori. We only know what happens around Kyousuke and I doubt she is saying sorry to kureneko or saori in front of kyousuke.

True, there's nothing to prove that Kirino hasn't properly apologize to them either, I guess I'll take the benefit of the doubt and think that she did. At least it's not another thing that the anime cut from the LN, as that's pretty important and not to be disregarded.

Originally Posted by Hoodspirit

Her eyes might have looked too aggressive, but that's how she gets kyousuke to do something.

Originally Posted by Hoodspirit

Kirino made him feel guilty before asking for help (porn in browser-history, impossible request to get hit by a truck, ect.)

Originally Posted by Hoodspirit

Despite working as a joke the dump truck sentence might have been also used as filling up the guilt-bank to make a reasonable request more accepted.

To be honest, this just makes it worse for me, it seems that when her usual demands aren't met she resorts to guilt-tripping and manipulative behavior to get what she wants.

Well, despite that though, it's not just her selfishness that really gets me (especially if she may come off worse than she originally is written). Sure, it does annoy me, but not what annoys me most, as like I've said having a selfish lead isn't that new. It's about these:

1. We got no clear idea yet why she behaves that way.
2. No one really chastise her for this, especially Kyousuke who is pretty much enabling her behavior, perhaps due to a reason we don't know yet.
3. She's doesn't get any comeuppance for her selfish actions, sure there may be problem in the middle (not as much or as long-lasting as what his brother suffers though) but in the end she does get what she wants (with her parents, friendship with Ayase, going to Comiket, the likes).

Well, I guess now my arguments are pretty much done, for points 1 & 2 all we can do is just wait until it'll be eventually be explained. So yeah, for now I'll try to be more patient with Kirino and try to accept Kyousuke as someone not as what I imagined (and envision) him to be, while wishing that, hopefully, their characters will undergo developments to be closer to what I want them to be.

[ion475]

1. We got no clear idea yet why she behaves that way.

Actually, it's mostly b/c Kirino is a brocon. She WANTS Kyousuke's attention yet doesn't really know how to get them other than pushing him around. That and Kyousuke being an idiot when it comes to realizing feelings...

2. No one really chastise her for this, especially Kyousuke who is pretty much enabling her behavior, perhaps due to a reason we don't know yet.

[mod edit: removed spoiler]

It is not the intention of the author to make boys be the sandbag of every girl, there are stronger mind men in the series, like kyousukes father. Kyousuke is only 17 year old and he still grows as a man and how to deal with girls.

Nah, it's more like Kyousuke having all sort of characteristics of a protagonist that will get a "harem" (More like just having a bunch of girl having feelings yet none are the protagonist's girlfriend b/c of Point #2 below)
1. Being "Normal" (aka normal looking, not much money, average grades in school, no true standout personality...)
2. Oblivious to Girl's feeling (The most important point of having a "harem")
3. Being those "nice guy" type that goes all out and help every girl without expecting reward (Touma from Index is prime example...)

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Given that the discussion is at the point, I think I just have to ask this question outright: Considering that a lot of those possessing complaints about Kirino are not LN readers and that a lot of those who defend her character seem to have knowledge of the LN and the story, is there simply something in the LN that the rest of us non-LN readers do not know that would somehow cause shifting in opinions? As it stands I really get the suspicion that if the insinuation that people who don't like her is because "they just don't get it" as a result of not "knowing the material", then there's an unfair divide that the anime simply isn't properly bridging to put LN readers and anime-only viewers on equal terms.

I don't think it has anything to do with reading the light novels. I've never read the light novels, anyway, and am judging based only on what I see in the anime. I really think it's just personal experience and preferences.

You asked for a "reason". I think there are plenty of reasons (she felt abandoned by him in the past, she has too much pride to admit when she's wrong, she has difficulty to showing her true feelings/being vulnerable, she's not using to showing this side of herself to others, etc. etc.) but the anime doesn't explain that outright. You can insinuate these things based on what we already know about the situation, but they don't flat out tell us "she's doing it for these reasons", or "here's she/he how really feels about him/her" or anything like that. We have to view it and judge for ourselves. And clearly, some people find this sort of behaviour so irksome that they have a hard time forming sufficient justification from what was presented so far. (I have a feeling that some people would find her behaviour "inexcusable" even if it were explained outright, though. It's as much a personal bias as anything else.)

While I'm sure that the source material can bias your thinking in various ways, at the same time I think the anime itself does provide sufficient data to make a judgement on either side.

(And, incidentally, I would also say that having this discussion probably polarized things even more. Some people are very upset/annoyed by Kirino, some people aren't really annoyed at all, but I'm guessing that even more people are sort of neutral -- they find her a bit annoying and wish her behaviour were explained more, but not so much so that they're throwing their hands up in disgust or foaming at the mouth in rage. We've had this discussion and people have basically had to take sides, but the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Given that we're only at episode 7 in a show that certainly won't be fully wrapped up at 12, we may be making a mountain out of a molehill.)

Originally Posted by Saturn Beaver

Sure, you can say that that's how tsundere is, she secretly is grateful for him deep down inside. Still, first of all, we have no way of knowing for sure whether Kyousuke knows this, there's never an understanding smile, just sighs and frowns from him.

Well, the end of episode 7 (the earring scene) is pretty close. The smile on her face while calling out to him while wearing the earrings she bought him is the "sign". He sighs at first, but then he puts on a little smirk of a smile, as he goes to catch up with her. It's a small thing, but I think that's intended as the sign.

[Mizuno]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Can we really confirm that Saori is 15? That comes as a major surprise, if true.

This is almost as surprising as Stiyl being 14.

[aliasxn]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Tastes are different, but _I_ absolutely can't understand why the exceptionally _boring_ Manami episode was received so well while people sigh about this excellent 2-parter (which displays the true origin of Oreimo).

Maybe because Manami is a much more likable character? One who the viewers can watch for more than two minutes without feeling the urge to kill kittens?

Seriously, even incest wouldn't be so much of an issue if Kirino wasn't so fucking insufferable. Even if I try to look at it from Kyousuke' pov, it still doesn't help. There's nothing she does for him that remotely outweighs the abuse he takes. There's no real good reason why he won't just tell her to go to hell, other than we wouldn't have a series if he did.

Bitchiest heroine since Toradora.

[LeaD36]

Originally Posted by AvianWing

Kirino has like 40 hours in each of her days.

So she is now writing her own doujinshi while working as a model, training in her sports club, studying as an honor student, playing eroge and watching anime as an otaku, and hanging out with two different crowds-- her normal friend and otaku friend-- as well as her brother.

Women managa multitasking very well. Just do half of the things at the same time and cut down sleeping hours from 8 to 4.
that's actually 4 + 20 + 20 hrs each day. -2 for eating, travelling etc. 42 hrs for the little fujiyoshi

Originally Posted by aliasxn

Maybe because Manami is a much more likable character? One who the viewers can watch for more than two minutes without feeling the urge to kill kittens?

Seriously, even incest wouldn't be so much of an issue if Kirino wasn't so fucking insufferable. Even if I try to look at it from Kyousuke' pov, it still doesn't help. There's nothing she does for him that remotely outweighs the abuse he takes. There's no real good reason why he won't just tell her to go to hell, other than we wouldn't have a series if he did.

Bitchiest heroine since Toradora.

don't you dare take Toradora's title in vain. It was an extremely sweet story!

[Kamonichan]

Those who blaspheme against Toradora will be met with severe retribution. None of those characters would seriously ask Ryuuji/Kyousuke to jump in front of a car for some research project. Not even the class president, whom I don't know very well.

[Hooves]

Originally Posted by aliasxn

Bitchiest heroine since Toradora.

Those words alone can start a flame war you know....

[aliasxn]

Originally Posted by LeaD36

don't you dare take Toradora's title in vain. It was an extremely sweet story!

Spoiler for :

He cooked for her, he cleaned her house, and generally went way out of his way to please her, and 9 out of 10 times she would express her gratitude by hitting him, insulting him and telling him how he didn't even compare to that glasses guy. Granted she had her baggage (...and don't we all?) but nevertheless she was a bitch. So much so that after I made it through Toradora I thought nothing could possibly bother me again, and then...

Originally Posted by Kamonichan

Those who blaspheme against Toradora will be met with severe retribution. None of those characters would seriously ask Ryuuji/Kyousuke to jump in front of a car for some research project. Not even the class president, whom I don't know very well.

?

Spoiler for :

Didn't Taiga try to kill him because he saw her letter (that she put in his bag in the first place) in the first episode? How is she any less selfish, ungrateful, inconsiderate than Kirino?

[Kagatob]

Originally Posted by aliasxn

He cooked for her, he cleaned her house, and generally went way out of his way to please her, and 9 out of 10 times she would express her gratitude by hitting him, insulting him and telling him how he didn't even compare to that glasses guy. Granted she had her baggage (...and don't we all?) but nevertheless she was a bitch. So much so that after I made it through Toradora I thought nothing could possibly bother me again, and then...




?

Didn't Taiga try to kill him because he saw her letter (that she put in his bag in the first place) in the first episode? How is she any less selfish, ungrateful, inconsiderate than Kirino?

Some people like that kinda thing, as it presents an air of control and power that the character holds, control and power which are two things that are often answered to with respect.

Spoiler for Toradora:

Also you forget that the main character of Toradora also had his own love interest that he was after, so it's not like he was after Taiga and she was rejecting him, it only happened once (albeit very briefly) when everything was revealed and they both realized that what they were looking for was right under their noses.

As far as comparing Taiga to Kirino, I disagree, Taiga was a spoiled little brat who never faulted in the face of a threat charging in head on without any regrets, that was the bulk of her charm. Kirino on the other hand, while she plays the part really well, actually worked her butt off to get what she has, she has excellent grades in school, works a fulltime job, runs track and field and still managed to live a double life despite all of those things.

Now to actually put in my 2 cents on the episode since I would feel guilty only contributing to the derailment of the thread
I started off with this show/manga as a Kirino shipper, and while I still am and probably will be, I went from mildly disliking Kuroneko to being head over heels for this goth-loli. Her first line in this episode and the look on her face as she said it. That's all it took, I'm on the Kuroneko bandwagon.
Saori on the other hand, while her methods are indeed quite clever, I can't really explain it, but whenever she's involved she almost feels like a nuisance. There's nothing inherently 'wrong' with her character, but having known someone who was pretty much the male version of her growing up, it got annoying dealing with it on a day to day basis.

Wincest end of the series would be great, but I think I can admit that goth-loli dream girl wouldn't be too bad either

[relentlessflame]

Let me just step in stop the Toradora derailment before it goes any further. If you're going to make relevant comparisons with other works, remember that you must use Spoiler Tags to discuss the other work (because not everyone has seen it). I would encourage those who posted above me to edit their posts appropriately before I do. And let's keep this on-topic; like I said relevant comparisons are okay, but let's not get side-tracked.

[Seitsuki]

I started off with this show/manga as a Kirino shipper, and while I still am and probably will be, I went from mildly disliking Kuroneko to being head over heels for this goth-loli. Her first line in this episode and the look on her face as she said it. That's all it took, I'm on the Kuroneko bandwagon.
Saori on the other hand, while her methods are indeed quite clever, I can't really explain it, but whenever she's involved she almost feels like a nuisance. There's nothing inherently 'wrong' with her character, but having known someone who was pretty much the male version of her growing up, it got annoying dealing with it on a day to day basis.

Wincest end of the series would be great, but I think I can admit that goth-loli dream girl wouldn't be too bad either

xD I know how you feel. I was prejudiced from the start towards her as "competition" to Kirino, but she's really frown on me since then. Not to mention her VA, makes her a load more endearing than words on a page. Still, wincest does have "win" in it for a reason :P

[Lumine]

Imo, Kirino is bad for my liver with all that bitching... Gotta love how Saori managed to "attend" the screening of Meruru.

[Itlandm]

The second part does not portray Kirino so much as a flawed character as a psychiatric case.

It is one thing if a friend or relative tells you with a straight face to get hit by a car, if they are someone you usually joke around with and you know they live in the same reality as the rest of us, where people don't jump in front of cars. It is terrifyingly different when said by someone who is capable of emptying a bucket of water over her own head in plain sight of a crowd of strangers.

But madness is not the only danger in dreams. There is also the danger that something may be lost which can never be regained.

In this episode, both of these dangers are terrifyingly close at hand. Sure, teenagers are not the most stable of creatures to begin with, but I would really worry about her at this point.

What a contrast to the relaxed and genuinely humorous sixth episode.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by Itlandm

The second part does not portray Kirino so much as a flawed character as a psychiatric case.

It is one thing if a friend or relative tells you with a straight face to get hit by a car, if they are someone you usually joke around with and you know they live in the same reality as the rest of us, where people don't jump in front of cars. It is terrifyingly different when said by someone who is capable of emptying a bucket of water over her own head in plain sight of a crowd of strangers.

But madness is not the only danger in dreams. There is also the danger that something may be lost which can never be regained.

In this episode, both of these dangers are terrifyingly close at hand. Sure, teenagers are not the most stable of creatures to begin with, but I would really worry about her at this point.

What a contrast to the relaxed and genuinely humorous sixth episode.

I must say, that is a pretty funny post

I just hope that you weren't serious, especially considering the fact that this show is mainly a comedy and that scene was obviously played for laughs. Anyone taking it seriously is simply looking for ways to hate Kirino more than they already do.

[Gohan78]

Kirino is a bad person because she doesn't ask for help, she demands it.
When she was confronting Ayase in the park, she cast a killer glare to Kyousuke like he was supposed to intervene, and as usual he took all the blame. Not a single word of thanks was uttered by her afterwards.
During their Xmas date, she commanded him to buy her a 30,000 Yen ring and complained when he didn't have enough money for it, even after he offered to pay 18,000 Yen, his whole allowance. How ungrateful can she be?
Oh, and the "dump truck joke" was terrible. How are we supposed to know it's a joke when she said it with a dead serious voice and expression? I don't know if this is the fault of the anime adaptation or not but here we are discussing the anime.
So far in the anime Kirino appears to be an awful, selfish person who doesn't deserve one bit of her brother's dedication.

P.S. Taiga was a saint compared to Kirino. Only Louise at her worst displays the same level of abuse towards the male lead as Kirino.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by aliasxn

Maybe because Manami is a much more likable character? One who the viewers can watch for more than two minutes without feeling the urge to kill kittens?

*lol* I liked that ^_^

Well, I guess 2 minutes of Manami are fine. But much more, and I feel my spirits shutting down and sleep creeping close. We have the drama potential of a wet ball of wool here. With Kirino, that doesn't happen to me.

Seriously, even incest wouldn't be so much of an issue if Kirino wasn't so fucking insufferable. Even if I try to look at it from Kyousuke' pov, it still doesn't help. There's nothing she does for him that remotely outweighs the abuse he takes. There's no real good reason why he won't just tell her to go to hell, other than we wouldn't have a series if he did.

Maybe it's that I have a little sister of exactly the same age difference, so I've been immunized against some of that. But Kirino's bitchiness usually doesn't insult, but rather amuse me. And besides, she's clearly thawing, if you know to look at the right details.

Bitchiest heroine since Toradora.

Quoted for truth ^_^

However, the difference is that with Toradora, the viewer was supposed to still like her. In Oreimo, even the author herself considers Kirino insufferable. That's a small but decisive difference.

[Haak]

I still liked Taiga because

Spoiler for Toradora!:

she still helped out Ryuuji and still mentioned how much she appreciated his help. She also became a lot less bitchy and we got to see the nicer side of her more and more. She also had a rather sad backstory, what with her family issues and all, which atleast explains why she's always bitchy. Plus she'd have a lot of moments where she'd screw up, get hit or something or fall flat on her face (a lot of the time BECAUSE of her tsun moments) so it's kinda hard to hate someone when she's in so many hilarious screw-up moments like that.

In contrast, Kirino doesn't actually help out Kyousuke in anyway and has a relatively normal family.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

I must say, that is a pretty funny post

I just hope that you weren't serious, especially considering the fact that this show is mainly a comedy and that scene was obviously played for laughs. Anyone taking it seriously is simply looking for ways to hate Kirino more than they already do.

I think that you dismiss Itlandm's point too easily.

The "get hit by a car" scene never felt comedic to me (aside from Kyousuke's explosive reaction to it, of course). If Kirino was just joking around, you'd expect her to start laughing once Kyousuke made his explosive reaction. I mean, that's typically how jokes like this work - You say something so outrageous that it can't possibly be serious, but because of your deadpan delivery another person takes it serious and responds with outrage, and then you both have a chuckle over how you managed to get him or her to buy what you said.

But when Kyousuke balked at Kirino's "get hit by a car" request, she didn't laugh. She didn't even seem amused. Actually, she seemed irritated. It vividly reminded me of Haruhi getting irritated when some of her directing commands during the making of the Mikuru movie where not met to Haruhi's satisfaction. And Haruhi's irritation there was very much real, so I can't help but feel that maybe Kirino's irritation is for real as well.


Episode 7 suggests to me that maybe Kirino is having difficulties telling reality apart from fantasy or fiction. The fact that she's trying to get closer to her brother by re-enacting key eroge scenes shows that maybe this is the case. And there's no comedy in her dumping a bucket of water unto herself during a cold wintery day. Even the background music for this scene makes it clear that we're meant to take this seriously.

And with all of this in mind, I'm not entirely sure what to make of the "get hit by a car" scene myself. Now, maybe it's just bad execution on the anime's part (if they wanted the scene to be taken as a joke on Kirino's part, they probably should have shown her at least crack a grin after Kyousuke took her command seriously). But given how the scene plays out in the anime, it feels a bit weird to me.

I don't think that Kirino really, truly wants her brother to get killed in a car accident.

But then, she is perhaps a bit emotionally disturbed, and maybe that's what the audience is meant to take away from the "get hit by a car" scene.