Sword Art Online - Episode 24 Discussion / Poll

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

Again call me skeptic, but even if a virtual reality system like the one in SAO is conceived in the next 20 or so years, I seriously doubt it'll be something the general public is going to have easy access to for another hundred or so. It'll probably be something strictly limited to governmental or institutional use like the examples you give.

twenty years is a LONG time in technological advancements in today's world, doubly so when dealing with computers.

20 years ago we had 386 and 486s as the pinnacle of personal computing, today we have more computing power in our phones than supercomputers from that age.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if quantum computing becomes a reality within that 20 year span, which frankly would be a far bigger achievement than mere VR, much less in 100 years.

[Metaneo]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

What is actually unrealistic is how exaggerated and shoehorned Sugou was characterized so far: it is hard to take a character like that seriously due to his position and role, where the series hardly portray him in reasonable evil position.

You can have mass murderers and all to be much more disgusting than the likes of Sugou, but that does not mean he becomes magically credible. at all.
His antics were hamfisted so many times it is just a glaring poor way to force "hatred" from the audience, instead of really making the character as a real antagonist.
In a way, the presentation and actions done by Sugou are what make him hilariously bad, to the point it is beyond parody. However, real humans may be even worse than him in term of creepy/evil aspect, but that it is another story.

In response to the bolded statements: Allow me to introduce you to Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy. I'd rather not say anything more on the subject though.

To be honest, I think they may have overdone Sugou's reactions a little, but my problem was that his voice sounded like someone was stepping on a chicken.

Other then that, yay, evil guy is defeated, Asuna is free, and the ending happened pretty much exactly as I thought it would. I figured the only way Kirito would be able to handle the situation was from outside interference.

[Slayerx]

Well finally caught up with this series... enjoying for the most part, but there are more than a few things that annoy me

One thing that bugs me in this episode is what's been bugging me since episode 14; How kirito seems to regard Kayaba. He was all fired up when they had their fight, but once the fight was over it was all peaceful; its almost like he's just letting bygones be bygones; he identifies with Kayaba and seems to hold some amount of admiration for him... It really just annoys the crap out of me... The man trapped 10,000 people in a death game; 4,000 people are dead; he nearly killed you and your lover; FOR SACHI'S SAKE ACT LIKE YOU STILL GIVE A DAMN!

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

Again call me skeptic, but even if a virtual reality system like the one in SAO is conceived in the next 20 or so years, I seriously doubt it'll be something the general public is going to have easy access to for another hundred or so. It'll probably be something strictly limited to governmental or institutional use like the examples you give.

Doubtful. The concept of such a realistic MMO is so irresistable that a company would have to be crazy not to find a way to market it to the masses. The only two things that would stop them would be the technology being too expensive for consumers or if the government actually put together some kind of ban on the technology.


And do you hold these kinds of criticisms for all sci-fi anime... cause i mean there are plenty of anime that do this aswell having technology more advanced than what we would probably have. Ghost in the Shell takes place in about 2030. Really suspension of disbelief allows the vast majority of viewers to except what is not strictly realistic

Virtual clothing is only one aspect of the general idea which is that I don't like it when games are too realistic. Looking and moving in a realistic way is one thing, but being able to tear it off another player is going too far and largely inappropriate in a real-world sense. Such a thing could never be implemented in any sort of game especially an MMO if you don't want rating boards and various other organizations cracking down on you hard.

Well first off, its more than possible that all the elements might be there. I certain their have been games that display clothing damage when a player is attacked and taken a step furthar this would mean having the clothing damage mimic the where the player has been attacked... Frankly all you have to do from there is make it possible for a hand to deal damage and thus tear through clothing... Second, keep in mind that the guy we are dealing with, was sick enough to take the time to mimic the specific smell of a girl into this game; so ya, not hard to believe he'd take that little extra effort for his rape fetish.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Metaneo

In response to the bolded statements: Allow me to introduce you to Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy. I'd rather not say anything more on the subject though.

Like I said, Sugou is nowhere close to what humanity can deliver in term of scum. The problem is the presentation and actions that take the textbook FICTIONAL VILLAIN antics to the maximum, making him more like a buffoon than actually a villain.

An antagonist doesn't always have to be charismatic or intelligent, that's a given. But when the fiction portrays such character in a fashion that it is difficult to consider them seriously, that's a major problem in term of realism, -narrative wise-.

[zero7090]

One thing that bugs me in this episode is what's been bugging me since episode 14; How kirito seems to regard Kayaba. He was all fired up when they had their fight, but once the fight was over it was all peaceful; its almost like he's just letting bygones be bygones; he identifies with Kayaba and seems to hold some amount of admiration for him... It really just annoys the crap out of me... The man trapped 10,000 people in a death game; 4,000 people are dead; he nearly killed you and your lover; FOR SACHI'S SAKE ACT LIKE YOU STILL GIVE A DAMN!

Because somewhere in his mind, he (and me) too yearn for that world. Just ask yourself when you was young, did you ever wish for that final fantasy, pokemon, the world with sword and magic, dungeon and dragon, flying iron castle and the wilderness to be real?

Virtual clothing is only one aspect of the general idea which is that I don't like it when games are too realistic. Looking and moving in a realistic way is one thing, but being able to tear it off another player is going too far and largely inappropriate in a real-world sense. Such a thing could never be implemented in any sort of game especially an MMO if you don't want rating boards and various other organizations cracking down on you hard.

you should play Dead or Alive. The japanese are already making clothes torn after receiving damage in various of game. In additional the gaming industry is already in the race for realistic game with physiX, Havok and so on. Why you may ask? it is to make you think that world and the character you are playing in the same.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

Again call me skeptic, but even if a virtual reality system like the one in SAO is conceived in the next 20 or so years, I seriously doubt it'll be something the general public is going to have easy access to for another hundred or so. It'll probably be something strictly limited to governmental or institutional use like the examples you give.

Whereas I think that within 10 years of something like the Nervgear being created in a lab, we'll see the first sets going on sale to the more serious hobbyists. The potential is just too huge.

(Of course, I have no idea when that will be.)

I realize this. I just don't count myself as one of them.

Well, bully for you, but, while some qualities are atemporal, much of the gaming market (that's not cheap games for smartphones or facebook) has been a race to greater... if not "realism", "immersion".

Better graphics, better physics, more intuitive controls, more freedom to jump off the rails and just do whatever in the game world so you can enjoy the first three points...

Sure, there'll always be room for good stories or addiction enablers. But I don't see that race stopping, either.

[Dengar]

You know, the fact that Kayaba created a game that killed a couple thousand people is just one aspect of the character.

[Oroboro]

Acknowledging or being thankful for good things that came from evil deeds is not the same as forgiving or condoning the evil deeds in the first place.

Besides, what was Kirito supposed to do, tell him to screw off? Mass murderer or not, there's no need to be rude.

[Esebian]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Ummmmm, you mean the psychotic, murdering sociopath who killed a guy right in front of Kirito, proceeded to try and kill him slowly while enjoying every moment of it, and then finally Kirito put him down when he tried to kill Asuna?

Not exactly the best example of Kirito's "faults." You'd never see a guy get criticized for this in real life, so I really find it hard to understand how you can hold this against him in a TV show.

It's not his "fault" that he killed him, it was that he did act emotionally and didn't think about the consequences; while I think nobody would do this in that kind of situation he will inevitable blame himself for it in the future.

It is not a fault for us, the watchers, but it will be undoubtly one for himself.

EDIT:

You can always tell yourself that the murder in that case was justified, but in the end most people still crack under the pressure of thinking that they ended somebody's life.

[Metaneo]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Like I said, Sugou is nowhere close to what humanity can deliver in term of scum. The problem is the presentation and actions that take the textbook FICTIONAL VILLAIN antics to the maximum, making him more like a buffoon than actually a villain.

An antagonist doesn't always have to be charismatic or intelligent, that's a given. But when the fiction portrays such character in a fashion that it is difficult to consider them seriously, that's a major problem in term of realism, -narrative wise-.

I wasnt referring to the horrible things Ted Bundy and Gacy did, I was referring to their antics while being held and in the court room.

[SilverSyko]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Doubtful. The concept of such a realistic MMO is so irresistable that a company would have to be crazy not to find a way to market it to the masses. The only two things that would stop them would be the technology being too expensive for consumers or if the government actually put together some kind of ban on the technology.

Whereas I think that within 10 years of something like the Nervgear being created in a lab, we'll see the first sets going on sale to the more serious hobbyists. The potential is just too huge.

(Of course, I have no idea when that will be.)

You're both awfully optimistic about this sort of thing. This is all hypothetical speak so only time is going to tell which viewpoint is the correct one. At the moment we're just going to have to disagree.

And do you hold these kinds of criticisms for all sci-fi anime... cause i mean there are plenty of anime that do this aswell having technology more advanced than what we would probably have. Ghost in the Shell takes place in about 2030. Really suspension of disbelief allows the vast majority of viewers to except what is not strictly realistic

I can choose for myself what I want to suspend my disbelief for, and SAO is not one of them.

And I've never seen Ghost in the Shell so I can't comment on that.

Second, keep in mind that the guy we are dealing with, was sick enough to take the time to mimic the specific smell of a girl into this game; so ya, not hard to believe he'd take that little extra effort for his rape fetish.

Yeah I got this argument already. Does that make it any less stupid? I'd say no.

Well, bully for you, but, while some qualities are atemporal, much of the gaming market (that's not cheap games for smartphones or facebook) has been a race to greater... if not "realism", "immersion".

Better graphics, better physics, more intuitive controls, more freedom to jump off the rails and just do whatever in the game world so you can enjoy the first three points...

And why is this such an important thing to try and achieve? Why is everyone striving to have it? Is there really any good reason for that? In the big picture it's absolutely pointless because a game can be just as enjoyable without implementing any realism at all.

In case you haven't already figured it out, I strongly dislike things I consider pointless, and realism in video games is one of them.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

And why is this such an important thing to try and achieve? Why is everyone striving to have it? Is there really any good reason for that?

Because it's what developers want to make and consumers want to buy, which is really one reason more than absolutely necessary.

In the big picture it's absolutely pointless because a game can be just as enjoyable without implementing any realism at all.

That's like saying a dish can be just as good without heat. It's true, and I like sushi, but I wouldn't want to be without deep frying or any of the many possibilities given by oven, frying pans and the like.

And frankly, all other things being equal, I'd rather have better graphics, better physics, and so on and so forth. It's not like crappy eight bit graphics make the game better, or we'd never have moved away from them.

In case you haven't already figured it out, I strongly dislike things I consider pointless, and realism in video games is one of them.

And in case you haven't already figured it out, the world doesn't revolve around you. There's lots of things I dislike, but I wouldn't be so dumb as to expect people who do enjoy them to renounce them just because of me.

It's nice that you can feel superior thanks to your appreciation of the high artistry of Pong, but seriously - nobody else cares.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

You're both awfully optimistic about this sort of thing. This is all hypothetical speak so only time is going to tell which viewpoint is the correct one. At the moment we're just going to have to disagree.

To be honest, they have historical trend on their side. Man went from being land-bound to going to the moon in little more than half a century, and the pace of advancement has only increased since then. Your view that a simple VR with BMI cannot happen in 20 years or even a century runs counter to established trend, especially when neuroscience has already advanced to where we're able to communicate with comatose patients with locked-in syndrome.

And why is this such an important thing to try and achieve? Why is everyone striving to have it? Is there really any good reason for that? In the big picture it's absolutely pointless because a game can be just as enjoyable without implementing any realism at all.

Is there really any good reason not to? Just because you enjoy certain types of game hardly means that's the only right way to enjoy a game. I don't diss people who like retro games, I enjoy quite a few myself, but it's a different story when it comes to those who would disparage and rally against progress simply because it doesn't fit with their taste.

[Chiibi]

Originally Posted by Vsin

...that's still Deus Ex Machina. Sure you can have the explanation, but it doesn't change the fact that in the moment, Kayaba comes out of nowhere, Kirito gains Super Administration powers out of nowhere, and he uses those powers to completely resolve the crisis when he was getting his butt handed to him just a second ago. If that's not the definition of DEM, I don't know what is.

Well, can you think of an another way Kirito could have possibly won against an all-powerful admin? o_O

I can't.

And I thought Deus Ex Machina didn't have explanations to begin with.

Oh hey Oroboro I see you are on *another* forum too! XD

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

Well, can you think of an another way Kirito could have possibly won against an all-powerful admin? o_O

I can't.

And I thought Deus Ex Machina didn't have explanations to begin with.

This is exactly a writing issue: you do not make a setup that require a DEM to be solved. If the author realizes that he has to literally call forth a random solution or a divine intervention, he should scrap the setup and tweak it in order to have a sound and consistent closure to the said problem ongoing.
That's why if he really wanted Kayaba saving the day, at least he should have hinted Kayaba's presence in ALO arc, and avoid giving Kazuto such a instant fix in this fashion.

[GDB]

Deus ex Machina can have explanations. To quote the Merriam Webster Dictionary:

Deus ex Machina - a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty

As you yourself said, there was no other way to solve it. There was no foreshadowing that this could happen; no allusion at all. It was literally as if the author had written up to there, realized there was no other way out, and went with this instead of having to rewrite prior chapters.

[Dengar]

To be fair, we all knew beforehand that Kirito would need some serious help beating an admin. And he has 'surpassed the system' before. So I feel this is more of a borderline case.

[Oroboro]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

Well, can you think of an another way Kirito could have possibly won against an all-powerful admin? o_O

I can't.

And I thought Deus Ex Machina didn't have explanations to begin with.

Oh hey Oroboro I see you are on *another* forum too! XD

/waves

The key indicator of Deus ex machina is the lack of foreshadowing. The only slightly plausible hint we got was the possibility that Kirito was being given an assist with his haxed stats. Something like Kirito feeling like he was being watched while going through ALO, or him monologuing on kayabas fate would help alleviate the feeling of ass pull.

While there's little other way that situation could have been resolved, the writer wrote the story into that corner in the first place.

Although after all is said and done, out of nowhere or not, I still found it entertaining. (More so than my first time reading.)

[GDB]

I'd rather he fully embrace the Incarnate System than rely on Kayaba's hax. At least that had been introduced before, alluded to, and shown in Accel World.

[zero7090]

Originally Posted by Vsin

...that's still Deus Ex Machina. Sure you can have the explanation, but it doesn't change the fact that in the moment, Kayaba comes out of nowhere, Kirito gains Super Administration powers out of nowhere, and he uses those powers to completely resolve the crisis when he was getting his butt handed to him just a second ago. If that's not the definition of DEM, I don't know what is.

Spoiler for Comparison to the novels:

Kayaba "soul" got transfer into ALO from SAO server along with the players. Then he process give Kirito the admin power. "The battle where you showed me how human will can transcend a system" that the hint of Kabaya granted him admin privilege.
I believe in the begin of vol 3, it mentioned that Kabaya whereabout was unknown. Then with all the poorly copy pasta work that the tech team of ALO management company did, couple with news/ads about ALO, readers (or may be just me) did think hope Kayaba will hack this game. I even thought that was the real Kabaya when he talked with Kirito about not running away.

And why is this such an important thing to try and achieve? Why is everyone striving to have it? Is there really any good reason for that? In the big picture it's absolutely pointless because a game can be just as enjoyable without implementing any realism at all.

Realism includes things like "water beats fire, fire beats plant, plant beats water" or a "headshot will do more damage than hitting the arm or leg" also physic interaction like blade parry. So for a RPG especially VR-RPG it would be a dead turn off without realism.