[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Rentora

Hey guys, I'm a long time lurker and although I've read and re-read the VN/Manga few times there are still few things I don't quite understand. Hopefully you can help me understand it:

1: Ange's timeline. What happened and what didn't happened, and when did it happen compared to other events? If we refer to the magic ending Ange must've met Hachijo Ikuko, but Featherine says their meeting is an illusion or something like this.
Also if they met, I am not certain that Ange could've gone to Rokkenjima so I guess that the events from where Ange jumps from the building, goes to rokkenjima and kills Sumadera are something Ange imaginated ? Since in the magic ending she apparently never went on rokkenjima to begin with.

According to the manga Ange met Ikuko. Apparently in the real meeting Ikuko had the key to the book of one truth, which was in Ange's possession.
Ange ends up reading the book and attempting to jump of a building. She lands on the safety net and when she opens her eyes the magic ending follows (Ange leaves the leadership to Okonogi and becomes a writer).
Basically all the meta we saw involving Ange (from her meeting with Bern in Ep 3 to... well, all Ep 8) is implied to be a travel her soul took (possibly during the short moments in whcih she was unconscious after her fall).

To get better explanations I recommend reading Ep 8 manga version Vol 9 chap 35, 36, 38.

Originally Posted by Rentora

2 : Episode 3 Shkannon murders. I get the whole Shkanontrice thing but how can Yasu still walk and kill if Shannon and Kanon are dead ? How can one still walk and kill when her two main personaes are dead ? I believe Yasu isn't included as one of her personae so I don't quite get it.

She basically killed the character she was playing, not herself. It's like saying Jack Dawson died at the end of the movie, which is undoubtely true but doesn't apply to Leonardo DiCaprio who's still alive.

For more technical details:

In Ep 1 Shannon's corpse wasn't in the shed (Hideyoshi and Kanon lied) and Kanon wasn't staked (Nanjo lied). Sayo is killed off by the bomb while wearing Beatrice's dress.
In Ep 2 Kanon of course wasn't staked (his body disappeared) and Shannon/Sayo committed suicide only after she killed off the other victims.
In Ep 3 Shannon/Kanon faked having been killed and Nanjo lied when he said they were dead. Sayo is likely killed off by the bomb after Battler died and Eva escaped.
In Ep 4 Kanon of course wasn't shoot by the Chiesters (his body disappears again, this time in the well) and Shannon/Sayo committed suicide AFTER everyone (minus Battler) was dead.

In short only in two episodes Battler can see Sayo's corpse and take note she's really dead. In all the other circumstances she was pretending.

Originally Posted by Rentora

3: Erika's perception of Shannon and Kanon at the same time. Ok the narrator in this episode is Battler and he shows us Kanon and Shannon together at the same time even though Erika is told that kanon or Shannon is away for some reason WHILE the other one is there, ok. But then why do Erika and the Eiseirn Jungfrau perceive Kanon and Shannon at the same time when going back to what happened? They should have realized that the two point of view don't match. That happens after Erika looses against battler in Kinzo's room.

(Sorry for the english errors ^-^)

The manga clarified that Erika never witnessed Shannon and Kanon at the same time and that, since during Ep 5 she didn't bother to listen to the narration but just watched things from her piece's perspective, she didn't find the thing suspicious.
She's basically seeing and hearing things differently from how they're presented to us as we are instead watching Ep 5 from the narrator's perspective, which is unreliable and describes things that aren't happening (Shannon and Kanon being someplace at the same time, Battler seeing Kinzo and so on).

Erika also admits that, in the same way as she hadn't paid attentions to the corpses, she hadn't paid attention to Shannon and Kanon as Bern wanted her to focus on Natsuhi and believed that one of them was always busy some other place without questioning things too much.

Erika will reconstruct the games and analyze them from outside and not from her piece's perspective only after Ep 6... and as soon as she'll do she'll realize the discrepancies.

No idea if Dlanor and Co know the truth... for all we know it's possible they didn't hear the narration either... but they're 'tools' in Erika's hands not detectives. They likely can't tell her the truth, it would count as breaking Knox's 2nd (they're supernatural agencies) so even if we assume they noticed the discrepancies between narration and the truth, it's unlikely they could tell Erika about it.

[Mali]

The Ange of the trick ending is evil. There's no playing around this.

Your original argument. So why is Ange evil? You didn't make any arguments beside "she killed" and "she killed probalby an innocent person". You said this:

it's all right to kill a person if you suspect he/she has ill intention toward you? Without real proof? Without trying to go for an alternate solution?
After Ep 8 Ange didn't become a better person in the trick ending. Ange becomes a person who, should she suspect of you, will kill you without real proof you were betraying her.

What do you wanted to show with this rethorical question? It really depends on the culture. In christian-shaped communities like Europe, for example, we have the article 2 and 3, Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union: Right of Life and Physical Safety. But laws and rules are human and thus fallible.
I think you mean that if Ange suspects in murdering her she will kill you. And you said she is a murderer. Law-wise she acted correct for her own good. It was likely self-defense because of strong suspicion. Since you said she hallucinaded, you cannot actually believe yourself that Ange became Black Ange, or what? In other words you cannot trust the whole scene, but you still insist she gained suddenly weapon knowledge and she killed for real? Then I would ask you if you really have the right idea about distrusting Ange vs. Mental disorder Ange, they are 2 different things.
Amasuka's responses "Let's see... maybe get you really drunk and ..." and "Well, that may be true." (to the Today are perfect locked room conditions) to Ange's "theories" speak for themself.
Since there aren't any hints what happened after or how exact the circumstances are, Cpt. Kawabata might be a really unlucky guy in most cases (shot by Ange, Amakusa or Kasumi's henchmen). But Okonogi and a third-party member, Cpt. Kawabata, knew that Ange was in danger. It is strange that the Sumaderas used a boat/ferry to Rokkenjima and had knowledge of the unofficial harbour of Rokkenjima and most of the seamen but Cpt. Kawabata dare to get near Rokkenjima after the incident. It's unlikely that Kasumi + henchmen would had waited the whole time (Ange's interviewing the relatives of the servants before heading to the island lasted for one day).
TLTR Ange supposed how her other outcome might be. Not necessary a bad ending, not necessary evil Ange, not necessary deaths. In other words the manga changed the meaning of the trick ending into "what life will become if I choose this?“.
About the conscience: She remembers in both manga endings (while the trick ending was hypothetical) the final ceremony. And because the trick ending appeared in Ange's mind first the whole scene is her bad conscience. She had been telling bad things to herself in order to stop choosing this. Through I don't understand if this might be a rational idea if she thinks t

There's no proof whatsoever she learn something in the bad ending or that she gained some love. Also Ange was already shown in Ep 4 as someone who doesn't trust in people (she refused to drink what Okonogi offered her which, we know, wasn't poisoned or to use the car he offered her...) so it's not like her believing Amakusa might actually plan to harm her is 'something she learnt'.

Yes, let's skip „What did Ange see in Cpt. Kawabata's home?“-scene...not. It would be another hint that Ange was already dead on the boat and she couldn't learnt because she wasn't there or it was too late.

We don't need the magic ending to know that Ange didn't agree with Eva hiding the truth. We know it from Ep 3. Also, although the manga made it obvious, even in the VN is hinted that Ange ended up on seeing the diary and that's what pushed her to attempt to jump from that building.

In the Magic-Ending she might hadn't read it at all. In the ending where the agent asked Kotobuki for a meeting with Tohya she remembered her meeting with Hachiyo Tohya there the diary was presented to her.
"you even have met at some point?" "Yes...A long time ago... just once...." [shows scene where she saw the diary for the first time] At that time she hadn't the key for the diary.
Remembering this in the magic ending should avert that Prime-Ange reached this ending or she kept telling to herself that she never saw and read the diary.

In the trick ending it's not that she's not pinning the guilt on Eva, it's just that she has stopped caring about the past. She's not absolving Eva or understanding her or claiming it's not her fault or anything else. She's just shrugging off the problem of whatever happened to her family.

No, Ange still believed her own truth (Eva was the culprit). It was the new Ange who could (actually should) overcome this. But you said it in later post she became an other person.
As you commented that Ange become like Erika, Erika used her past-problem as a reason to become an intelectual rapist. Ange used her future plan as a reason. I admit that they share traits. Through it's strange Ange averted her plan with „Then I will never be able to escape the chain of misfortune of my family...“ after having a view of the other outcome. She simply believe she cannot have a happy life without magic. That's pretty bitter to have such thinking.

She was in a rush to reach them and she only managed to save Battler out of luck, because he took a detour, otherwise she would have been too late.
Would it be smart to take time to deactivate a bomb who'll explode in around 23 hours when one needs to run saving everyone as they could be killed right now?
Would it matter to deactivate the bomb if Kyrie and Rudolf had managed to kill everyone?
Would it matter to deactivate the bomb when they could reactivate it?

If she had run into Kyrie or Rudolph, it would be over. Battler would not know what's going on and could barricade himself in a room, later he will start wandering around like in EP4 until the bomb goes off.
I won't say it was right or wrong that Sayo first run to find someone. The aftermath doesn't depend on the cause. Finding Battler was luck.
The bomb mechanism can be manipulated or the gold room can be locked.

Or Ange could have gone what she did in the magic ending and not have to kill anyone.
Or she could have gone to the police with an excuse (asking for info about the case), from there use their protection to freely hire her own bodyguards since she has money to use freely, fire Amakusa, not go to Rokkenjima and play for him the role of bait.
Or point a gun on Kawabata's head and demand him to turn the boat around.
Or tie him somewhere.
Or many, many other things that didn't involve killing him in cold blood.

Nice ideas,
but it would depend on what Ange plans are. Since she had that brilliant idea before reaching Rokkenjima, she could't prevent that Amasuka accompany her.
It would be suspicious if she had changed her mind about traveling to the island. Since it was not shown how the captain or the bodyguard would response, it will be speculative.

You know, I'm really having a hard time following your reasoning.
Although B. Battler and EVA-Beatrice were also occasionally used to diguise the culprits they were, in other situation, played completely straight as in they didn't disguised anything. They were the culprit.
And they weren't necessarily used only with good reasons. B.Battler is often used for other people's amusement.

You're funny. You can't be seroius, or?

Asumu's son died at his own birth. He never went on Rokkenjima to murder people nor were part of the cast.

How? It is stated Kyrie „had“ a miscarriage. Then Asumu would actually had the miscarriage. Asumu's child couldn't have died on his own birth.

No. Bern's game has only one solution.

Ryukishi said:

You said it's The Word Of God but I don't see it in this quote. Yes ,the reader could only choose one possible answer. Ryukishi perfected Bern's game but there are so many weakpoints like non-culprits could make statements on lies whose would make them true, even if they are the lies.
If he described it as foul play why didn't he redesigned this scenario? Well he didn't banned it and decided to include this, so who cares?

[...]refers to Beato's 4 games as they're discussing why Beato is leaving him alive for last and if this can mean he's the culprit. This red also can't be used in the trial, same as 'Natsuhi is not the culprit' hence Battler can ignore it in Ep 5 (even if he knows who's the real murderer).

Bern never knew of this red and was therefore in no obligation of using it in her game. Of course she knows that in Beato's games the culprit was neither Battler's family nor George's family but Sayo but the same doesn't apply for her game.

Even in Ep 8 Beato says that Battler not being the culprit applied to her games but that as this was Bern's game it was okay for her to make him the culprit.

Red can be used if they had an objective proof to show this, stated by Dlanor. Actually the 5th game is designed to disprove Natsuhi's guilt. For Natsuhi's case they went for the human truth to pin the guilt on her. The opponent's side played by their rules and overlooked (unintentionally and unintentionally) mistakes.
Yes this Battler's chance to change direction.
But still „all games“ would refer everything without exceptions. Then Kinzo's status could be alive if „all“ don't apply for the following games.

And Erika didn't need love to solve things just with that red hint in the same way as she didn't need love to solve the trick of the cup in Ep 6.
Erika doesn't look at Beato's games with 'love' but with the longing to crush them, expose the truth Beato and Battler want to hide and hurt them.
The only thing for which she has love is the idea she could hurt them.

Without hate, it cannot be seen.
Know that love, hate, fear and joy can give us new strenght. Obviously positive feels are promoted media.
It would totally affect the story: we could ignore the love story and solve the game. Ryukishi must have known that some people solved this way without paying attention on love.
Why they included the extra in the manga is a mystery to me. To me Erika gave a half-solved explanation to Battler and just to show off how hateful she is in this one-sided battle.
I like VN-version more,both were showing their passion and pleasure in dueling each other.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Mali

Your original argument.

Listen, let's agree to disagree.
For you it was okay for Ange to kill whose people. For me it wasn't.
At each his own.

Originally Posted by Mali

Yes, let's skip „What did Ange see in Cpt. Kawabata's home?“-scene...not. It would be another hint that Ange was already dead on the boat and she couldn't learnt because she wasn't there or it was too late.

You know, the more you try to explain your point of view, the more it confuses me.
Are you now meaning you think she's dead in the trick ending? Or something else?

Originally Posted by Mali

In the Magic-Ending she might hadn't read it at all. In the ending where the agent asked Kotobuki for a meeting with Tohya she remembered her meeting with Hachiyo Tohya there the diary was presented to her.
"you even have met at some point?" "Yes...A long time ago... just once...." [shows scene where she saw the diary for the first time] At that time she hadn't the key for the diary.
Remembering this in the magic ending should avert that Prime-Ange reached this ending or she kept telling to herself that she never saw and read the diary.

Ikuko says she took upon herself to collect the key. Hence Ikuko had it. And Ange during the magic ending never said she never saw and read the diary.

Originally Posted by Mali

No, Ange still believed her own truth (Eva was the culprit).

Honestly I can't find a single quote confirming this through all the trick ending.

Originally Posted by Mali

If she had run into Kyrie or Rudolph, it would be over.

Yes., it would be over. And if everyone had run into Kyrie and Rudolf before she were to warn them it would be over for them as well.
She's trying to save people from an immediate threat and she has to act fast.

Also, if Rudolf and Kyrie were to find her still alive they would probably check she hadn't shut down the bomb mechanism.

Originally Posted by Mali

Battler would not know what's going on and could barricade himself in a room, later he will start wandering around like in EP4 until the bomb goes off.

I don't get why would Battler barricade himself in a room, first then wander later.

He doesn't know his parents are killing people, when he finds dead people his first aim is to warn the others so he wouldn't barricade himself in.

Originally Posted by Mali

I won't say it was right or wrong that Sayo first run to find someone. The aftermath doesn't depend on the cause. Finding Battler was luck.
The bomb mechanism can be manipulated or the gold room can be locked.

To manipulate it might cause to trigger it if you're not good at it and locking the gold room wouldn't stop them from getting an axe and destroying the door... which the manga shows as not having a key lock.

Originally Posted by Mali

You're funny. You can't be seroius, or?

I've the feeling you hadn't understood what I said but whatever.

Originally Posted by Mali

How? It is stated Kyrie „had“ a miscarriage. Then Asumu would actually had the miscarriage. Asumu's child couldn't have died on his own birth.

First of all in Ep 8 both VN and manga it's confirmed that it was Asumu's child who died. Rudolf however decided to switch Asumu's stillborn child with Kyrie's perfectly healthy baby.

Both Kyrie and Asumu went to the hospital when they were close to giving birth (they both got pregnant at around the same time, only Kyrie noticed later), but Asumu's baby was born dead in the day in which he should have birth.

Originally Posted by Mali

You said it's The Word Of God but I don't see it in this quote. Yes ,the reader could only choose one possible answer. Ryukishi perfected Bern's game but there are so many weakpoints like non-culprits could make statements on lies whose would make them true, even if they are the lies.
If he described it as foul play why didn't he redesigned this scenario? Well he didn't banned it and decided to include this, so who cares?

He didn't banned the scenario because it served to a narrative purpose.
Lambda too let Erika constructs her Natsuhi culprit theory and allowed for the Battler culprit theory in Ep 5 for a purpose.

Originally Posted by Mali

Red can be used if they had an objective proof to show this, stated by Dlanor.

No. The rules to use red are that witches can use it without needing to show any proof.

Dlanor asks for proofs when Battler uses the red about Natsuhi because Battler isn't a witch and can't use a red given by a witch to construct a theory without using proofs. We see that all of Erika's blue truths were turned into red truths by Bern.

But anyway which would be the objective proof that Battler isn't the culprit?

Originally Posted by Mali

But still „all games“ would refer everything without exceptions. Then Kinzo's status could be alive if „all“ don't apply for the following games.

Truth of the future can overwrite truth of the past. Just because in all the past games something applied this doesn't mean you can't make a game in which this something doesn't apply.
Ep 7's game have a living Kinzo. The same goes for Ep 8.

Originally Posted by Mali

Without hate, it cannot be seen.
Know that love, hate, fear and joy can give us new strenght. Obviously positive feels are promoted media.

I'm aware of that. I can't see though how this support your idea that Erika gained love and solved the game thanks to it.

[Mali]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Listen, let's agree to disagree.
For you it was okay for Ange to kill whose people. For me it wasn't.
At each his own.

Why do you stop this now? In one of an earlier debate I ended up like this and you declared youself as the winner. So I won this ok?

You know, the more you try to explain your point of view, the more it confuses me.
Are you now meaning you think she's dead in the trick ending? Or something else?

Ushiromiya Ange definitely dies in 1998.
I do not feel like to mark Ange as Old Ange or New Ange.

Ikuko says she took upon herself to collect the key. Hence Ikuko had it. And Ange during the magic ending never said she never saw and read the diary.

Then the hint that she read the diary isn't valid anymore?

Honestly I can't find a single quote confirming this through all the trick ending.

There's no need for it. The trick ending begins before she ends her journey. She still has the idea of Eva being the culprit at that moment until she decided "antother step in her life".

I don't get why would Battler barricade himself in a room, first then wander later.

He doesn't know his parents are killing people, when he finds dead people his first aim is to warn the others so he wouldn't barricade himself in.

That was an idea. We knew Battler don't care if the culprit will find him.

I've the feeling you hadn't understood what I said but whatever.

I don't know if Black Battler really do the act. But for EVA-Beatrice only a few go on her account.

First of all in Ep 8 both VN and manga it's confirmed that it was Asumu's child who died. Rudolf however decided to switch Asumu's stillborn child with Kyrie's perfectly healthy baby.

Both Kyrie and Asumu went to the hospital when they were close to giving birth (they both got pregnant at around the same time, only Kyrie noticed later), but Asumu's baby was born dead in the day in which he should have birth.

Well I stick for the VN this time. It was stated it was miscarriage, not stillbirth.
The anime adapation mentioned the stillbirth.

No. The rules to use red are that witches can use it without needing to show any proof.

Dlanor asks for proofs when Battler uses the red about Natsuhi because Battler isn't a witch and can't use a red given by a witch to construct a theory without using proofs. We see that all of Erika's blue truths were turned into red truths by Bern.

But anyway which would be the objective proof that Battler isn't the culprit?

What I meant is that Battler has to show proof to support his red. He could show conspiracies in the story or red to disprove Natsuhi's guilt. But he used the other way, forming an other theory.

If Battler made this theory wouldn't it be the same foul play Ryukishi described?
For the objective proof: Battler never called Natsuhi (for whatever reason).







I'm aware of that. I can't see though how this support your idea that Erika gained love and solved the game thanks to it.[/QUOTE]

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Mali

Why do you stop this now? In one of an earlier debate I ended up like this and you declared youself as the winner. So I won this ok?

I'm stopping this now because it's pointless.
You're not persuading me what she did was okay but you're sure what she did was okay.
I'm also having a hard time understanding your theory and I notice when I'm asking for clarifications or pointing out things you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.
We're not going to change our minds. We're not understanding each other.

To sum it up we're at a stalemate.
If reaching a point where one tells you he doesn't agree with you but doesn't feel like continuing the discussing any further feels like a victory to you... well, suit yourself. Have a party. I don't really care.

[marianx]

can someone tell me how beatrice was trying to get battler to remember his promise from the games, because i can't understand how. also how was yasu was "forced" to commit the game like murders.

[Levani]

Originally Posted by marianx

can someone tell me how beatrice was trying to get battler to remember his promise from the games, because i can't understand how. also how was yasu was "forced" to commit the game like murders.

She wasn't. Yasu isn't a goody-goody, she is capable of great cruelty and I don't doubt it for a second that she enjoyed herself greatly by torturing Battler during the games.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by marianx

can someone tell me how beatrice was trying to get battler to remember his promise from the games, because i can't understand how. also how was yasu was "forced" to commit the game like murders.

The long explanation as given in the manga.

After learning the truth about herself in 1984 Sayo started to spiral into depression.

The truth basically told her that she was a incestual bastard, unable to marry the people she loves due to them being related to her and unable to have the babies she so longed to have (they probably also tossed in that her chromosomes were XY and not XX...). In short that her dream to marry the person she loves and have a family can't be fulfilled. She also is disgusted by the condition of her body.

She also started to learn of the crimes the Ushiromiya family members committed (Kinzo caused the slaughtering on Rokkanjima, kept his daughter trapped in Kuwadorian and abused of her, Krauss committed embezzlement, Krauss and Natsuhi covered up Kinzo's death to keep on taking advantage of his, Natsuhi murdered a woman and attempted to murder Sayo as well then covered up everything, Rosa abuses Maria to the point social services started getting interested, Rudolf switched Kyrie and Asumu's babies and he's into fraudolent business, Kyrie is from a Yakuza family, Gohda, who regularly bullies her was fired by his previous place due to a sexual affair, Nanjo, Genji and Kumasawa, despite knowing what was going on between Kinzo and her mother kept their mouths shut and covered up for him, like they did with Natsuhi. They also accepted bribes to keep their mouths shut about Kinzo being dead).

To make the story short by 1986 she thought that the best solution for her and her family was to commit suicide.

I'm not the best to explain this but Japan has different views about suicide and about what a family head can and can't decide. As a result suicide didn't look to her as bad as it could look to us and, when she told Genji "I'm the family head and I think to commit suicide and drag with me everyone else on the island" he agrees to support her (like he had supported Kinzo in all his crimes, really).

Still, a side of Sayo would want to be saved so she start devising a murder game as her form of group suicide and rules that will stop it from happening (if someone were to find the messages in the bottles she tossed away on the 3rd and manages to warn someone he might have stopped the game, if someone solves the epitaph the game will be stopped, if someone discovers she's behind the crimes the game will be stopped and so on).

As she plans various possible solutions while a side of her feels helated at devising all those possibilities another shrinks away in horror. Still she can't stop herself.

Among the possible ideas for the games she considered killing Rudolf and Kyrie early on BECAUSE Kyrie is smart and doesn't trust people easily so she could pose a problem (see Ep 1 & 2) and to test George, Jessica and Battler's feelings for her (see Ep 4). [See Confession of the Golden Witch 1, 2 & 3 for more details]

Ultimately though in Prime the adults solve the epitaph and she stops the game prior to the start of the 5th of October so we can't tell if she would have truly managed to carry out the murders or how.

The adults argue among them, bullets flies and ultimately Kyrie and Rudolf start slaughtering everyone. She gets shoot and assumed dead. (see Ep 7 Teaparty for more details)

She's not, she just fainted. She wakes up and attempts to save everyone else by warning them about Rudolf and Kyrie's intentions.

She only manages to find Battler still alive (everyone else is dead) and escapes with him in the underground tunnel. The island explodes but they survive. She puts Battler on a boat, planning for him to reach salvation and for herself to remain behind (and likely commit suicide). Battler drags her on the boat but she'll jump from it and drown herself.
Battler, in attempt to save her, will lose his memory (we don't know how, maybe he had an embolus... or something else really).

Sayo, or better Sayo's soul, wakes up in the Purgatorio. She's looking like Beatrice. With her there's also Battler only he's suffering of complete amnesia.

Instead than telling him the truth she thinks she can find a resolution by challenging him to the games she had planned in hope he'll solve them, remembers about her and understand her and her problems.

Legend of the golden witch starts being played. [See Ep 8 chap 37 for more details]

In short:
Battler remembering the promise wasn't a goal, it would be a clue for him about her identity and motive and something she would have liked him to do (she wanted to know if he remembered it, if he was serious when he did it and so on).

Sayo doesn't murder anyone in the end and, due to this, we can't know if she would have had the guts to follow her plans.
No one forced her to think of such a plan, nor in Prime nor in the meta. She thought it was a good plan... and she was obviously wrong.

She however believed that since Battler was a mistery lover this would also work as a clue for him. It doesn't. Sayo has problems differentiating between fantasy and reality. She doesn't get that people faces mystery books with a spirit completely different from the one used to face real life murders and that presented with real murders Battler won't even think solving them using mystery rules. It's a huge mistake on her part.

Did she had fun torturing Battler? Not as much as she pretended to have by playing the role of the cruel witch (it's pretty obvious in Ep 4 teaparty). She much preferred when in Ep 3 they had a moment in which they were getting along.

She had however been raised in an abusive and bullying environment were all this was almost like the norm and in which she often got the short end of the stick so a side of her clearly enjoyed being on the bully's side for once. She's definitely not a saint and she lacks empathy as she often doesn't realize the consequences her own actions will have on others (much to Battler's horror she expected him to end up on enjoying the game and believed that if she were to show him a 'really gruesome' first twilight he would get 'interested' in it instead than grief stricken, desperate, hurt and generally disgusted at her).

Her enjoyment of being on the bully's side wasn't enough to encourage her to keep on continuing the games though.

Ultimately she didn't want to harrass Battler but to have him back and when she feared this wouldn't happen she gave up.

[Levani]

The question remains, is Beatrice in Purgatorio just a manifestation of Yasu or does that entity combine Yasu, Kuwa and Castiglioni in one.

[AuraTwilight]

It's just Yasu.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Levani

The question remains, is Beatrice in Purgatorio just a manifestation of Yasu or does that entity combine Yasu, Kuwa and Castiglioni in one.

I'll say she's just Sayo, as Kuwa and Bice should have had their own souls and gone in their own land of death... but as reincarnation in Japan can work in odd ways (they even have theories for reincarnation that can have you being the reincarnation of a still living person) nothing stops Sayo from being Bice and Kuwa's reincarnation and Battler Kinzo's as they say at the end of Ep 8 (though I tend to take that sentence as a joke).

There's no hint though she's her mother and her grandmother beyond the fantasy story she tells Battler about her past and Kinzo's obsession about Beatrice reincarnating in her descendants.

But well, who knows...

[marianx]

jjblue i dont know if i agree with you that the promise is not the goal. at the end of episode 8 manga it says she wants battler to find the her that is her promise, the word promise also is repeatedly throughout the whole novel multiple times. if anything the promise is the core of umineko.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by marianx

jjblue i dont know if i agree with you that the promise is not the goal. at the end of episode 8 manga it says she wants battler to find the her that is her promise, the word promise also is repeatedly throughout the whole novel multiple times. if anything the promise is the core of umineko.

The whole sentence:

I will wait forever, until you rip the me that is a witch apart and find the me that is our promise.

can be interpreted:

until you tear away the illusion hiding me and find the true me, the one with whom you exchanged a promise (= the girl who loved you, waited for you and tried to become your ideal woman).

Sayo wants him to find HER, the person with whom he made a promise a promise that he was FINALLY about to keep when she died. She wants him to find the motive for which she's doing all this, as he's the one who claimed to care about motives. She wants him to understand her.

However, if Battler had only remembered he made a promise with Shannon but hadn't connected it to Beatrice, for Beatrice there wouldn't be much point in him remembering.

In a way you're right in saying that the promise is the core of Umineko as the promise is the motive that pushes MetaBeatrice to play such a game with Battler. But just Battler remembering the promise without recognizing it as a motive would have no meaning for Beatrice.

That's why just remembering isn't the goal for me. Battler needs also to connect the dots. At least that's my interpretation.

This, of course, doesn't stop you from coming up with a different theory on what Beatrice wanted, why she wanted it and how she went to archieve her goal.

Umineko allows everyone to come up with his own theory after all.

[Sethalak]

Hi

I have finished EP7 recently and I don't understand the whole thing.

1.: Maybe I haven't read properly, but what is the inescapable fate of Beatrice / Claire?
2.: What does Bernkastel mean with the "certain will", which Beatrice supposedly has?
3.: At the end of the main EP7, Willard (that was the Name, right?) has destroyed the Illusions. What does that mean? That thing has confused me, because it was super fast ... Does it mean that all the things mentioned in the scene had not happened --> literally "illusions"?

I'm sorry for my bad english.

I'd appreciate if you can answer my question, but if it is possible, do not Spoiler with EP ^_^

Thank you!

[AuraTwilight]

1. Her inescapable fate is basically her own death, which she arranged by her own hand, and her inability to see any point in living beyond October 3rd, 1986.
2. The certain will is why Lambdadelta supports her. It's her strong determination that makes the incident's outcome the same in every universe: When the seagulls cry, none are left alive.
3. It means he solved the mysteries.

[Sethalak]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

1. Her inescapable fate is basically her own death, which she arranged by her own hand, and her inability to see any point in living beyond October 3rd, 1986.
[...]
3. It means he solved the mysteries.

Thank you!

To 1: It may be a stupid (or unnecessary) question, but why has she arranged the serial murder? How did she trapped herself in that fate?

2: Why is her goal always reaching the same result in every world? I thought that she wants to have a universe in which she could live with happiness (Lions world)?!

3.: I made a mistake with that question. I meant, that the "solution" by Will was a little bit ... short and vague. You don't get a detailed answer to the illusions :/ Have I to accept, that the mysteries in the games before EP7, solved with Will's black sword won't be explained further or that the mentioned mysteries in the scene didn't happen?

I'm confused ^__^

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Sethalak

Thank you!

To 1: It may be a stupid (or unnecessary) question, but why has she arranged the serial murder? How did she trapped herself in that fate?

It's a little complicate and the easiest way to get it would be to read the extra chapters in Ep 8 manga versions but, to make things short she was suicidal along with mystery lover. A side of her though that dying in such way could be a fitting death for her, another though that Battler, who was another mystery lover, would manage to stop her in such setting.

Originally Posted by Sethalak

2: Why is her goal always reaching the same result in every world? I thought that she wants to have a universe in which she could live with happiness (Lions world)?!

She can't reach Lion's world though. Lion's world is basically a 'what if' in which her fate was different right from the start (she wasn't tossed off a cliff but was raised as a child of the Ushiromiya family).
Although she wants to find happiness she doesn't believe she can. Hence her goal ends up being killing herself, although she thinks at different settings to do so.

Also keep in mind that Beatrice ultimately died in 1986 along with almost everyone who was in Rokkenjima as explained by Ange, however it's unknown HOW.

Hence an universe in which she can live a happy life can't exist.

Originally Posted by Sethalak

3.: I made a mistake with that question. I meant, that the "solution" by Will was a little bit ... short and vague. You don't get a detailed answer to the illusions :/ Have I to accept, that the mysteries in the games before EP7, solved with Will's black sword won't be explained further or that the mentioned mysteries in the scene didn't happen?

I'm confused ^__^

If you're reading the VN... yes, Will's explanation is all you'll get.

Ep 7 manga version however explains Will's solutions with a bit more details.
Back when Ep 7 was released Ryukishi wanted to let readers more time to think at the solutions so in a way Will's 'solutions' work as additional hints and decided that, by the time Ep 7 manga version would be released, readers would have had enough time to think at things on their own and he could release the solutions.

Ep 8 manga version also added some extra solutions.

Also some solutions were also released in side materials (tips and interviews).

As you said you're at Ep 7 I've been trying not to spoil you.

I take you're reading the VN. I recommend you giving a look at Ep 8 manga version as Ryukishi himself retconned many things in it, explaining everything better, making the whole more emotional and more meaningful (many were unsatisfied with Ep 8 VN version but loved the manga version).

[Sethalak]

Maybe I should play again the game from the beginning, because I haven't reasoned / thought enough about the riddles.

There is A LOT of discussion about Umineko. This topic alone has >1700 pages ... I wonder how so much people / readers were able to think of own interpretations, solutions etc. Perhaps I don't have the experience with mystery-stories or I am stupid and superficial. Annoying.

Thank you for the explanation.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Sethalak

Maybe I should play again the game from the beginning, because I haven't reasoned / thought enough about the riddles.

There is A LOT of discussion about Umineko. This topic alone has >1700 pages ... I wonder how so much people / readers were able to think of own interpretations, solutions etc. Perhaps I don't have the experience with mystery-stories or I am stupid and superficial. Annoying.

Thank you for the explanation.

Don't worry, even among those who had reasoned about it a lot not everyone reached the intended solutions or the intended culprit. But going back and rereading while knowing what you know now surely will help you find a lot of solutions for a lot of riddles.

[Sethalak]

This thinking game has his own difficulty... Maybe that was the aim of Ryukishi He wrote in the afterword of the 2nd Volume of the higurashi manga that he wants to drown the readers in the sea of keys. That's true for Umineko, too.
Additionally, people like me beginning with Umineko late (i.e. 201X, exactly November 2014) don't have the advantage to discuss the plot in 'real-time'. Speaking in terms of time Umineko is now old.

Another question: I don't get why Battler's return in 1986 was that bad. Bernkastel and Will said that 1985 or 1987 would be fine, but 1986 was bad. I haven't recognized the reason for it.

What was the last year Battler had visited Rokkenjima before he left the Ushiromiya family? Was it 1979 oder 1980?