Madoka Magica - Movie 3 Spoilers and Speculations

[Qilin]

I think how anyone interprets that final bit will largely depend on whether that person believes Homura's motivations to be selfless or selfish in origin.

If it's the former, you have an otherwise well-meaning Homura misinterpreting Madoka's wishes, tainting herself and rewriting the world in the process. It's tragic, and possibly more consistent, but there's nothing new going on there.

The latter, on the other hand, has Homura coming to a decision to pursue her own happiness against the will of of the system, without Madoka shouldering the burden. This, I see as a moment of genuine character growth on the part of Homura, even if it could have been executed better.

Spoiler for my speculation on the ending:

The final form that Homura took was actually interesting in the context of this show's lore. I saw it as a final affirmation of this show's central thesis that wishes and despair are indeed one and the same. Homura called it "love" because that was the feeling that provided the motivation for her initial wish, as well as the main root of her suffering. It's a source of both her joy and her grief, the only proof of her long struggle, which is why she wouldn't let even Madoka take it away from her. It was her complete acceptance of this duality that allowed her to become a being above the witches themselves. She became something that is neither purely hope nor purely despair, but something more representative of the world's nature in general.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Eh. Not going to deny this point, but you know what I think about Madoka's atemporality, and as for being freed from karma, "Karma" and "Attachment" are two different things. Karma's really only the results of your actions coming back at you, so Nagisa's statement is accurate.

But it's not, because Sayaka's regret was a result of her previous actions, and it did get in the way of her mission here. So going by your definition, they're not free from karma at all.

Either that or, like Madoka, by lowering back into the world, they once again adopt attachments, regrets, and desires.

Yeah no... I think I prefer my interpretation that Urobuchi's just using the fancy words without any deeper meaning.

The Ego in Buddhism is defined essentially as the part of yourself that puts your self before the rest of the world and pursues personal comforts and attachments. The part of ourselves that is distracted from enlightenment for the hopes and despairs of this world.

In that sense, yes, Madoka very much did discard it.

But we don't know that. We don't know anything about how she feels in that state.

Arguable. The Madoka who said this isn't the Madoka who became hope for all Magical Girls. No matter how perfect a job you do, you can't remove chunks of people's memories, change the emotional context in which they framework their entire worldview, and then trust whatever comes out of their mouth as being accurate, even if they're 100% sincere. Homura's indulging in confirmation bias.

Well, Homura's just a middle school girl. Would she even know that the hell is confirmation bias supposed to mean? She hears Madoka says she would suffer if she had to make that sacrifice and she can help but to try to do something to prevent it. You would do the same for your single best friend if you were a middle school girl.

This is a false correlation. No one (as far as we know) wants to be a witch, and Madoka's conversation with Sayaka heavily implies that Madoka is respecting their decisions and wishes, and goes to lengths to ensure they're okay with it. Homura didn't put forth that sort of effort.

The conversation with Sayaka was about something else. All the magical girls, whether they like it or not, are taken away by the Law of Cycles. That's why is called a Law. And it doesn't matter if no one wants to become a witch. It doesn't change the fact that she forced her wish on them all. That's the whole point.

As for the Kaname family, that's really incidental to Madoka's wish and not an intentional part of her actions.

Well, I think when she made the wish she knew perfectly well what she was getting into, including such side effects.

Even then, though, there's still a difference because Madoka is perfectly within her rights to consent to leaving the universe (it's her existence; she can retcon it from reality if she wants to), but Homura doesn't have the right to impose and imprison her. Madoka didn't give her consent.

Madoka forced her family to live without her. Homura forced Madoka to live without her god powers. I don't see much of a difference.

You could argue that Madoka didn't have a choice, but really, how much of choice Homura had. If she didn't do anything and just left Madoka take her away, QB would eventually find a away to screw the Law of Cycles for good. That's too much of a risk.

It's literally equivalent to kidnapping someone from their job and locking them up at your home.

Madoka isn't locked up. She's not in a fake world or anything like that. The entire universe has been rewritten, so this world is as true as it was after Madoka rewrote it for the first time. Madoka is a normal girl, but she's still Madoka. She doesn't even need her god powers for the time being as Homura seems to be taking care of things, so the fact that she can't use it doesn't harm her or restrain her in any way.

Heck, if you think about it, Madoka had that power thanks to Homura's time travels, so in a way Homura does have a right to take her power away.

[AuraTwilight]

The final form that Homura took was actually interesting in the context of this show's lore. I saw it as a final affirmation of this show's central thesis that wishes and despair are indeed one and the same. Homura called it "love" because that was the feeling that provided the motivation for her initial wish, as well as the main root of her suffering. It's a source of both her joy and her grief, the only proof of her long struggle, which is why she wouldn't let even Madoka take it away from her. It was her complete acceptance of this duality that allowed her to become a being above the witches themselves. She became something that is neither purely hope nor purely despair, but something more representative of the world's nature in general.

I like this, thematically.

Yeah no... I think I prefer my interpretation that Urobuchi's just using the fancy words without any deeper meaning.

Not disagreeing with this. I just find it fun to see how things can be justified from an in-universe perspective.

But we don't know that. We don't know anything about how she feels in that state.

We do if we take her words at face value in the last episode. She's free, and she no longer cares about what happens to her or what she becomes. She's become a being devoted entirely and completely to others.

Well, Homura's just a middle school girl. Would she even know that the hell is confirmation bias supposed to mean? She hears Madoka says she would suffer if she had to make that sacrifice and she can help but to try to do something to prevent it. You would do the same for your single best friend if you were a middle school girl.

Not knowing what a logical fallacy is doesn't excuse you from indulging in it, Kazu.

The conversation with Sayaka was about something else. All the magical girls, whether they like it or not, are taken away by the Law of Cycles. That's why is called a Law. And it doesn't matter if no one wants to become a witch. It doesn't change the fact that she forced her wish on them all. That's the whole point.

Yea, well, find me a Magical Girl who contracted specifically for the super special peachy keen duty of become a Witch, and we'll talk.

Well, I think when she made the wish she knew perfectly well what she was getting into, including such side effects.

Yea right. I doubt she specifically knew the exact outcome of the wish aside from ensuring that witches would be erased.

Madoka forced her family to live without her. Homura forced Madoka to live without her god powers. I don't see much of a difference.

Madoka's powers belong to her. Madoka's family don't own her. She's..you know.

A person.

You could argue that Madoka didn't have a choice, but really, how much of choice Homura had. If she didn't do anything and just left Madoka take her away, QB would eventually find a away to screw the Law of Cycles for good. That's too much of a risk.

I'm not disagreeing that Homura had to do something. But for all the power she pulls out of her ass she might as well have just....killed the Incubators forever, or something. Go around contracting Magical Girls herself.

You know, Devil symbolism. Work it.

Madoka isn't locked up. She's not in a fake world or anything like that. The entire universe has been rewritten, so this world is as true as it was after Madoka rewrote it for the first time. Madoka is a normal girl, but she's still Madoka. She doesn't even need her god powers for the time being as Homura seems to be taking care of things, so the fact that she can't use it doesn't harm her or restrain her in any way.

Heck, if you think about it, Madoka had that power thanks to Homura's time travels, so in a way Homura does have a right to take her power away.

No, no, no. Madoka is locked up in that she was on 'the other side' of the world and now she's locked up in her former existence instead of her self-actualized one. It doesn't matter if the world is real, it's not the world that's born of Madoka's self-determination. If I were to go back in time, for instance, and sabotage your relationship with the love of your life to hook you up with someone I feel is a better match, you might be happy. HappiER, even, maybe.

But it's still immoral, and you have full reason to be pissed off if you find out. I robbed you of your ability to make choices for yourself. Atleast with the Witch thing, people didn't really HAVE a choice besides suicide.

And Homura doesn't have the right to Madoka's powers. If I give you a gift, I don't have the right to take it back later. It stopped being my property as soon as it became yours.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Not knowing what a logical fallacy is doesn't excuse you from indulging in it, Kazu.

What I mean is that she probably just reacted on the fact that her most important person was in pain and she had to do something about it. I don't think she was indulging in confirmation bias because I think it was like an instinctive reaction from her. After so many years of protecting Madoka, it must be like second nature to her, something automatic.

Yea, well, find me a Magical Girl who contracted specifically for the super special peachy keen duty of become a Witch, and we'll talk.

Just because what she did is mostly beneficial for everyone doesn't mean she didn't force it on them. That's besides the point.

Yea right. I doubt she specifically knew the exact outcome of the wish aside from ensuring that witches would be erased.

I think it's clear she knew she would disappear from this world.

Madoka's powers belong to her. Madoka's family don't own her. She's..you know.

A person.

Her family doesn't own her, but she's a minor and is under her parent's responsibility. Madoka shat on that when she took actions against her parents wishes (IIRC her mother even told her that she didn't want to lose her or something like that).

I'm not disagreeing that Homura had to do something. But for all the power she pulls out of her ass she might as well have just....killed the Incubators forever, or something. Go around contracting Magical Girls herself.

You know, Devil symbolism. Work it.

Well, who knows. Maybe she was able to pull that much power out of her ass only because she was determined to put Madoka out of business. lol

No, no, no. Madoka is locked up in that she was on 'the other side' of the world and now she's locked up in her former existence instead of her self-actualized one.

I don't think she needs god powers and whatnot to be self-actualized. Self-actualization is a state of mind. She can be like that as a human just fine. It's up to her.

It doesn't matter if the world is real, it's not the world that's born of Madoka's self-determination.

Who cares. Madoka's world, Homura's world. Neither had any right to rewrite the world so it's all the same.

If I were to go back in time, for instance, and sabotage your relationship with the love of your life to hook you up with someone I feel is a better match, you might be happy. HappiER, even, maybe. But it's still immoral, and you have full reason to be pissed off if you find out.

No, because I would be none the wiser. In fact, who's to say God isn't changing our lives all the time in our world? Maybe it's happening right now and we just don't know. Who is gonna judge God for "toying" with our lives if no one besides him knows about it?

The audience?

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Her family doesn't own her, but she's a minor and is under her parent's responsibility. Madoka shat on that when she took actions against her parents wishes (IIRC her mother even told her that she didn't want to lose her or something like that).

Congratulations, you just described a good number of heroes, both western (see: X-Men, Spider-man, during their original production) and shounen. They sacrifice, or potentially sacrifice, themselves to save the city/world, though obviously their loved ones wouldn't want to lose them.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by GDB

Congratulations, you just described a good number of heroes, both western (see: X-Men, Spider-man, during their original production) and shounen. They sacrifice, or potentially sacrifice, themselves to save the city/world, though obviously their loved ones wouldn't want to lose them.

Heroes are such a selfish bunch.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

This argument hurts you. If Gretchen and Madoka aren't the same entity, then Madoka died to create the former. If Madoka and Gretchen ARE the same entity, then Gretchen is suffering and in pain and has no existence except to be defeated by Magical Girls, and thus isn't protected.

Either way, "Kaname Madoka" no longer exists. And she must,so that Homura can protect her.

Your definition of "protecting" is not universal.

I can argue that once Madoka died of arguably natural causes, Homura's job is done.

The notion that a person's responsibility extends beyond death is a little unrealistic, don't you think? For example, if it is the parents' responsibility to care for their child, and that child will always be their child even when they grow into an adult, does that mean that all parents are failures because either they or their child will die eventually, making it impossible to care for their child forever?

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

This is exactly the point. There's no end to her mission. That's probably EXACTLY WHY she can time travel indefinitely. She never specified an end condition or what she should protect Madoka from, and if not for the latter's intervention, Homura WILL fall into despair. It's exactly Kyubey's MO.

It's like if a Magical Girl wished to always be able to follow her dreams, and then became a Witch after learning it meant she'd never reach them. Wishes boning over the girl due to giving them exactly what they asked for is kind of a theme, bro.

What exactly are you disputing? Homura still got what she asked for. She protected Madoka until it no longer became possible for her to die.

There is no "unfulfilled wish" that needs to be accounted for in order for Homura to have the power to do what she did in the movie. The idea that a magical girl's powers can evolve after they have already formed their contract is not something that was established in the original TV series.

[Vegard Aune]

Originally Posted by Monoriu

In the Movie 3 ending, Sayaka is alive and happy, she said so herself. Nagisa is alive and happy as well. Kyoko forms a pair with Sayaka. Mami found Nagisa, and is no longer lonely. Madoka is reunited with her family. QB has been defeated. Homura and Madoka are now in the same school.

In the TV ending, Madoka and Homura were separated. Madoka's family forgot her (except her little brother). Sayaka was dead, and she did not have a chance to respond to Kyoko. Mami stayed lonely. QB is there to work on his next scheme. From these girls' perspective, the movie ending really isn't that bad. Sure, the law of circles is probably broken, but we have no idea how Homura's world really works so far. It is too early to judge.

Yes, if one takes all the "I'M EVIL MUHUHAHAHAHA" and "YOU ARE GOING TO DESTROY US ALL OH NOES" and that general tone of creepiness away from the whole thing, the ending is pretty much sunshine and rainbows...
But I think all of that is a bit much to ignore. That said, I never really wanted a sunshine and rainbows ending in the first place. I've said it before, that I think that the TV-series ending was really about as happy an ending as this story could reasonably have without it seeming like a cop-out.

[AuraTwilight]

What I mean is that she probably just reacted on the fact that her most important person was in pain and she had to do something about it. I don't think she was indulging in confirmation bias because I think it was like an instinctive reaction from her. After so many years of protecting Madoka, it must be like second nature to her, something automatic.

But she did indulge in it. It just wasn't intentional. Logical fallacies are things we engage in instinctively because we're prone to irrational shortcuts and self-serving patterns.

I think it's clear she knew she would disappear from this world.

Prove it.

Her family doesn't own her, but she's a minor and is under her parent's responsibility. Madoka shat on that when she took actions against her parents wishes (IIRC her mother even told her that she didn't want to lose her or something like that).

It's Madoka's life. She decides what should be done with it.

Especially since minors can get emancipated in Japan.

I don't think she needs god powers and whatnot to be self-actualized. Self-actualization is a state of mind. She can be like that as a human just fine. It's up to her.

Right, but that doesn't change that it was still a decision she made herself, and Homura doesn't respect it.

What if Madoka became a firefighter or something, and Homura forced her to quit through brute force?

Who cares. Madoka's world, Homura's world. Neither had any right to rewrite the world so it's all the same.

The only thing Madoka changed about the world was her own existence and the existence of witches. One was within her rights to change, and the other was something everyone wanted done away with except Kyubey.

And screw Kyubey.

No, because I would be none the wiser. In fact, who's to say God isn't changing our lives all the time in our world? Maybe it's happening right now and we just don't know. Who is gonna judge God for "toying" with our lives if no one besides him knows about it?

The audience?

"If you found out" was an important qualifier. Can you atleast include it in your considerations? :P

And if your hypothetical God example is the case? Yes, that's immoral. That no one is around to judge him for it doesn't change it. Crimes are still crimes even if you don't get caught.

Your definition of "protecting" is not universal.

Doesn't matter. Only Homura's matters. It's HER wish, so it acts on her definitions. It's not like words have objective definitions outside of the people using them.

The notion that a person's responsibility extends beyond death is a little unrealistic, don't you think? For example, if it is the parents' responsibility to care for their child, and that child will always be their child even when they grow into an adult, does that mean that all parents are failures because either they or their child will die eventually, making it impossible to care for their child forever?

You say, as if Homura's a rational person and not someone overcome with grief and a desperate psychological need to be useful to the point of basing her entire self-identity around a single duty.

What exactly are you disputing? Homura still got what she asked for. She protected Madoka until it no longer became possible for her to die.

There is no "unfulfilled wish" that needs to be accounted for in order for Homura to have the power to do what she did in the movie. The idea that a magical girl's powers can evolve after they have already formed their contract is not something that was established in the original TV series.

I'm just elaborating someone else's argument and pointing out why your response isn't adequate, bro.

Yes, if one takes all the "I'M EVIL MUHUHAHAHAHA" and "YOU ARE GOING TO DESTROY US ALL OH NOES" and that general tone of creepiness away from the whole thing, the ending is pretty much sunshine and rainbows...

What about the mindrape and kidnapping?

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

But she did indulge in it. It just wasn't intentional. Logical fallacies are things we engage in instinctively because we're prone to irrational shortcuts and self-serving patterns.

Homura just did what she does, protect Madoka. Is a robot programed to do something self-serving? No, it just do what it does. And after so many years of protection Madoka, Homura may as well be a robot.

Well, the analogy isn't perfect, but I think I made myself clear enough.

Prove it.

Her "imaginary" conversation with Kyoko and Mami in episode 12, when the latter tells her she'll become hope, suggests she did know she would lose her mortal life.

It's Madoka's life. She decides what should be done with it.

It's not that simple, but to each their own. I wonder what you would say if it was your child though.

Especially since minors can get emancipated in Japan.

But she wasn't, so it's irrelevant.

Right, but that doesn't change that it was still a decision she made herself, and Homura doesn't respect it.

The playing field changed. If there's no more witches, there's no need for a Law of Cycles. Homura effectively puts her out of business by removing the very purpose of her occupation. That happens a lot in real life, and it's not a crime.

What if Madoka became a firefighter or something, and Homura forced her to quit through brute force?

What if Homura makes it so that there was no more fires to put out and Madoka loses her job because there's no need for firefighters anymore?

The only thing Madoka changed about the world was her own existence and the existence of witches. One was within her rights to change, and the other was something everyone wanted done away with except Kyubey.

And as of now, Homura's world is even better. Yeah, Madoka doesn't get to play god anymore, but she doesn't even know she lost her job, so it's all good.

"If you found out" was an important qualifier. Can you atleast include it in your considerations? :P

The point is that you won't find out. It's just not for you to know, and therefore not for you to judge. Likewise, who is going to judge Homura? As far as the world knows, Akuma Homura doesn't even exists (for now at least). She only exists for us the audience, and we are mere outsiders who have no actual say on the matter.

And if your hypothetical God example is the case? Yes, that's immoral. That no one is around to judge him for it doesn't change it. Crimes are still crimes even if you don't get caught.

Morals are standards. If there is no one to set those standards, there's no morality to speak of.

[Monoriu]

Originally Posted by Vegard Aune

Yes, if one takes all the "I'M EVIL MUHUHAHAHAHA" and "YOU ARE GOING TO DESTROY US ALL OH NOES" and that general tone of creepiness away from the whole thing, the ending is pretty much sunshine and rainbows...
But I think all of that is a bit much to ignore. That said, I never really wanted a sunshine and rainbows ending in the first place. I've said it before, that I think that the TV-series ending was really about as happy an ending as this story could reasonably have without it seeming like a cop-out.

I think Homura is a very severe or even extreme case of "harsh outside; soft inside." This is shown consistently to be the case in the TV series. In EP4, Madoka almost begged Homura to watch over Sayaka. Homura flatly rejected this. Even knowing that Sayaka was as good as dead, Homura proceeded to do exactly as Madoka asked, and saved or tried to save Sayaka in EP5 (alley), EP6 (asked Kyoko to leave Sayaka alone, stopped Kyoko from dueling Sayaka and retreived Sayaka's soul gem), and EP8 (gave her a grief seed).

She once harshly threatened Madoka at the beginning of EP6 that she would consider "other options" (implied to be violent ones) to make the fool (Madoka) listen. Homura didn't act on the threat at all and basically continued to do what she had always been doing. What happened when Madoka acted against Homura's EP1 advice again and tried to contract in EP8? That would be Homura's chance to carry out her threat. Turns out her "other options" consisted of breaking down in front of Modoka in tears and begging her to stop being so self-sacrificing. In the EP11 hug scene, Humura was all "I could do this alone" on the outside but inside she was really thinking "I beg you to let me protect you."

So I think Homura acting all creepy on the outside is entirely within her character. One needs to observe what she does, not what she says. The "bad" things she did were wasting Kyoko's apple and breaking a tea cup behind Mami (Homura's own tea cup, not even Mami's). Homura has universe re-writing powers, but only did petty mischief on screen. Imagine someone who is powerful enough to restructure the universe, claims herself to be the devil, then shows how evil she is by j-walking. Also notice that Homura was basically the only person who called herself the devil. The other person, Sayaka, who used the same term, only repeated what Homura herself said.

Homura did rewrite Sayaka's memories, but she only did so after Sayaka appeared to summon Oktavia. The alternative would probably be a fight right there. The Homura/Sayaka relationship is probably the worst among the 5 girls. What did Homura do when she rewrote Sayaka's memories? Made her happy enough to say "I am happy" onscreen.

[AuraTwilight]

Homura just did what she does, protect Madoka. Is a robot programed to do something self-serving? No, it just do what it does. And after so many years of protection Madoka, Homura may as well be a robot.

Well, the analogy isn't perfect, but I think I made myself clear enough.

That doesn't change the fact that she indulged in confirmation bias. It only makes it more clear that she did so.

Her "imaginary" conversation with Kyoko and Mami in episode 12, when the latter tells her she'll become hope, suggests she did know she would lose her mortal life.

Not good enough. She already made her wish at that point, we don't know if the scene was truly 'imaginary', and for all we know, she became the elevated-consciousness Madokami (the one that sees all the timelines, let's not go into details) as soon as the wish was made.

If this is the best you can do, you shouldn't state things as absolutes.

It's not that simple, but to each their own. I wonder what you would say if it was your child though.

I'd be upset, sure.

But if my kid's making the knowing, informed decision to become a pansdimensional bodhisattva in order to alleviate the suffering of Man throughout all time and space for eternity, well....damn I am the best parent. Go get'm, kid.

The playing field changed. If there's no more witches, there's no need for a Law of Cycles. Homura effectively puts her out of business by removing the very purpose of her occupation. That happens a lot in real life, and it's not a crime.

There's only no more witches if there's a Law of Cycles in place. We don't know enough about Homura's world to analyze further.

Though if Homura circumvented the problem entirely the way you posited in your speculation, she could've, like...ASKED? "Hey Madoka I found a better answer. Whaddya say?"

Even if Homura is otherwise justified, her going around Madoka without her consent and stepping on her decisions is disrespectful.

What if Homura makes it so that there was no more fires to put out and Madoka loses her job because there's no need for firefighters anymore?

The entire cosmos freezes to death and civilization collapses? :P

And as of now, Homura's world is even better. Yeah, Madoka doesn't get to play god anymore, but she doesn't even know she lost her job, so it's all good.

"No, see, it's alright. When I robbed that dude the concussion I gave him caused amnesia, so he doesn't even realize I stole his car!"

The point is that you won't find out. It's just not for you to know, and therefore not for you to judge. Likewise, who is going to judge Homura? As far as the world knows, Akuma Homura doesn't even exists (for now at least). She only exists for us the audience, and we are mere outsiders who have no actual say on the matter.

Madoka and Sayaka will judge her. The ending made it pretty clear she needs to make a conscious effort to keep their memories down and it's not foolproof or permanent.

Morals are standards. If there is no one to set those standards, there's no morality to speak of.

Yea, and? The standards are set by society, which our hypothetical criminal is taking place in. The fact that you're not caught doesn't mean you didn't break those standards. It just means you're getting away with it. You still did an immoral thing.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

You say, as if Homura's a rational person and not someone overcome with grief and a desperate psychological need to be useful to the point of basing her entire self-identity around a single duty.

Just because a person is irrational does not mean any line of thought suddenly becomes possible for her character. Proving a person to not be of sound mind does not prove that Homura's definition of "protection" means literally being an immortal bodyguard.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Doesn't matter. Only Homura's matters. It's HER wish, so it acts on her definitions.

And so it did. Through her powers, Madoka's potential progressively increased with each passing loop to where she became too powerful to be killed by even the strongest Witch when she finally formed a contract, and then later powerful enough to erase the existence of Witches entirely.

Homura wanted to protect Madoka from her death, and that's exactly what she did.

Again, there is no unfulfilled wish or contract. There is an unfulfilled desire that she did not put into the form of a wish, which is a different matter entirely.

[NinjaRealist]

Originally Posted by blakstealth

You see Homura chilling on what I think was a hill, overlooking the night sky and the city. Then it cuts to something scurrying through the grass, which turned out to be Kyubey looking like a cold and ruffled up animal that's about to die. Its condition was very similar to the very first episode of the series when Kyubey was badly injured from Homura when it was trying to run away from her. lol

Thank you for this.

[Vegard Aune]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

What about the mindrape and kidnapping?

I consider that part of the "general unsettlingness". Now let me clarify, I don't think this ending is all sunshine and rainbows, I'm just saying that at a surface-level it looks like one. But when one actually looks at the details it's clearly anything but. I mean, when I first saw the movie I was just stuck in a state of numbed shock/horror for hours afterwards.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Eater of All

I went to the Tuesday US premiere, and Mitsutoshi Kubota (president of SHAFT) was there to do a short Q&A session. The best part was when he said he considers it a happy ending, but when he asked the audience, about 5 people raised their hand at "happy" and about 200 at "tragic".

I wonder what accounts for the massive difference in western reaction and Japanese reaction to this movie's ending? It does seem like the Japanese were largely pleased with this ending, but that westerners were largely displeased with this ending or at the very least are hoping for a continuation that will "fix things".

[speedyexpress48]

Went to the Denver showing at 7:30. All I can say is, welcome to mindfuck. Also, Homura is on my list of favorite characters now thanks to dark Homura. Still cannot beat Kyoko though. Had a beer and a burger, theater played Nanoha trailers before the movie started. Awesome night.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I wonder what accounts for the massive difference in western reaction and Japanese reaction to this movie's ending? It does seem like the Japanese were largely pleased with this ending, but that westerners were largely displeased with this ending or at the very least are hoping for a continuation that will "fix things".

Well, online stuff aside, the only Japanese person I've spoken about it with (who is a hardcore otaku and huge fan of the series) didn't really like the movie.

It's just a sample of one, but I still think it highlights that we shouldn't be too quick to just say "oh yeah Japan loves it".

Of course there's also the point that the question was whether people thought it was a happy ending or a tragic one. That's not quite the same as asking if people liked it or found it satisfying.

Though the idea of the story ending here boggles my mind, with how unstable Homura's world seems to be. Happy nor tragic, I don't want to call it an ending to the story at all. Empire Strikes Back isn't satisfying without a Return of the Jedi to follow.

Questions for discussion: Is Homura happy now? Is she satisfied? Can she sustain herself emotionally... forever?

[AuraTwilight]

Just because a person is irrational does not mean any line of thought suddenly becomes possible for her character. Proving a person to not be of sound mind does not prove that Homura's definition of "protection" means literally being an immortal bodyguard.

Then define Homura's end-goal as "Madoka dying in old age surrounded by her loved ones." It doesn't matter. The point is Homura's emotionally compelled to save Madoka from any fate short of a long life of happiness as a normal human, and it's perfectly consistent with Homura's mental state.

And so it did. Through her powers, Madoka's potential progressively increased with each passing loop to where she became too powerful to be killed by even the strongest Witch when she finally formed a contract, and then later powerful enough to erase the existence of Witches entirely.

Homura wanted to protect Madoka from her death, and that's exactly what she did.

Again, there is no unfulfilled wish or contract. There is an unfulfilled desire that she did not put into the form of a wish, which is a different matter entirely.

You're arguing out of bad faith here. Homura never said anything about protecting Madoka from death, only that she wants to protect her. Period. There are no qualifiers here. She is not done protecting Madoka until Homura says so, and so her wish will act on that. Just like Kyouko wished for people to listen to her father's words, without qualifiers, it caused people to accept anything he said as truth regardless, for as long as he spoke them, until he killed himself.

Run a program with no defined termination trigger, and it will run indefinitely, forever and ever.

Questions for discussion: Is Homura happy now? Is she satisfied? Can she sustain herself emotionally... forever?

Given her final words and her crying at the end of the movie, plus her specifically stating that she has plans for Kyubey and his kind, I'd argue that no, she's not satisfied, but she's not planning to sustain this scenario indefinitely. It's just Phase One in a bigger plan.

[cloudii]

So I watched the movie several hours ago, and I was wondering:

Where did we get the conclusion that the Law of Cycles isn't in effect anymore after Homura becomes Akuma Homura? I'm pretty sure Homura didn't kidnap Madoka entirely from her job.

The film was pretty explicit in saying Homura stole only a piece of Madoka (thus splitting Madokami).

And seeing that Homura said that she still needs QB to take care of wraiths, I think it's pretty safe to assume that witches are still be prevented from forming = law of cycles is in effect = Madokami (or at least part of her) is still saving magical girls before they become witches.

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I kind of saw Madokami as someone who represents LAW and RULES. (If I recall, she mentions something about being uncomfortable breaking rules?) She doesn't discriminate, and subjects her friends, her family, and herself to the same rules as everyone else. Hence, in her universe, for example, Sayaka can't live out the happy life she could have, etc, etc.

Homukami, on the other hand, represents the BREAKING of rules. It's kind of the bad-girl type of thing to do, which is why I think she placed the Akuma trope over herself. IMO, I don't think Homura necessarily became evil. It's more like, because of her love for the people she cares about, she's going to break the rules, and she doesn't care even if she's portrayed as the bad guy (or if it makes the present Madoka upset). Hence, when she rewrites the world, she explicitly makes it a world where her friends can be happy, Sayaka and Charlotte are alive, etc. It's kind of a selfish-type action where she's fully willing to discriminate and pull cards so that the world she wants will play out the way she wants to. That's the kind of power that I see Homukami having.

The flower scene really did it for me. Homura never realized (and I think none of us realized) that Madoka might not have been as happy as she seemed to be in her kami state. For the once-gone characters, Rebellion was like: "Although I said I didn't have any regrets in the TV anime, I actually regretted this..." (Bebe regretted cheese.... |D).

IMO, Homura went Akuma to give Madoka, Sayaka, etc. a chance to re-live the lives they lost and fulfill any lost regrets. Kind of like Angel Beats. Of course, we find out later that Madokami doesn't approve (b/c she's a god, darnnit), but honestly, I think anyone who really really loved Madoka would have done the same. Madoka might have her urges to do her altruistic and godly-things, but it's so....... lonely in her kami-state and she sacrificed so much. Even if she might not want it, I think it's Homura did the correct love-centric thing to give Madoka one more shot at re-living her life. It's soooo angel beats in that way.

siighhhh, I really enjoyed it.....