Immrigrant's Rights

[Legend Ver 2]

I don't exactly know what to say. I know alot of these decisions will be made based on economy and what not, so I can see why the country is having problems coming to a resolution. I, for one, am somewhat pro on the condition of earning citizenship based on some of the conditions the news was talking about (i.e. learning english, getting a job, here for x amount of years, etc etc). I mean alot of these people came here to get a better life, but alot of them seem to go through hell because of this issue.

I know this because I have relatives in this situation. I have chats with my cousins and what they have to go through emotionally. I don't know what you guys think, but I feel that the burden is on the children that grew up here. As the few interviews involve teenagers during that segment, they grew up here, became Americanized, yet they can't belong here because they didn't come out from a va*ina here (pseudo quoting Chris Rock). I see my cousins working hard, getting great grades, become part of the in crowd in HS, etc etc. Yet other kids who take their life here for granted (and some include my very own friends), stealing sh*t (batteries?!?) from Target, smoke weed, and do all these other crazy sh*t end up with financial aid, assistance from government, and get into a fairly good college, while my cousins don't have any of those advantage and literally have to fight their way through supporting themselves for college.

To me, this can be a double blessing. Because these kids were here under such circumstances, it gave most of them more desire and ambition, and when they finally do officially become America, these boys and grls are gonna be crazy successful because they already have the drive. I'm just saying don't decide who can stay and who can't based on superficial means like whether they came in legally or illegal and bs like that. Alot of people don't know what they go through. Because of my cousin's drive due to this, it made me want to be a better person and more ambitious even though I'm a bit luckier than they are.

[Roysufer]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

What cause that mess down there? The people are hardworking. They are smart and the land is rich in natural resources. So what is the cause? Countries like Chile, Agrentina and Costa Rica seems to be doing pretty well. Others like Brazil has some problems but is generally on the upswing. So whats wrong with the other countries?

The problem is not a problem with the country or the people that live in the country. The problems lie in the Socio-economic setup with in the countries. i don't knwo quite as much about south american countries, but in central american countries (which is where the bulk of immigration is coming from), especially mexico, the majority of wealth lies with an extremely small percentage of the population. 30 mil of its 103.5 mil citizens live in poverty (according to Mexican Ambassador Alfredo Perez-Bravo). The US is fairly unique in its minimum waige policies. people are not trying to escape the country they are escaping the inescapable poverty that ravages their country.

[tanuki]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

That raise a intresting points.

What the political and economic mess down there?

I don't know much about the history of that part of the world so i would be very intrested if someone could explain it to me.

What cause that mess down there? The people are hardworking. They are smart and the land is rich in natural resources. So what is the cause? Countries like Chile, Agrentina and Costa Rica seems to be doing pretty well. Others like Brazil has some problems but is generally on the upswing. So whats wrong with the other countries?

Think in terms of looking at countries like Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Columbia. Or for that matter at any country from Mexico down into Central America where there is high unemployment coupled with a high percentage of the population living near or below the poverty line.

Honduras:

"http://198.81.129.100/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ho.html

"One of the poorest countries in the Western Hemisphere with an extraordinarily unequal distribution of income and massive unemployment..."

Nicaragua:

http://198.81.129.100/cia/publicatio...k/geos/nu.html

"Nicaragua, one of the Western Hemisphere's poorest countries, has low per capita income, widespread underemployment, and a heavy external debt burden. Distribution of income is one of the most unequal on the globe...""

Guatemala:

http://198.81.129.100/cia/publicatio...k/geos/gt.html

"The distribution of income remains highly unequal with perhaps 75% of the population below the poverty line."

Shrug, it's not hard to understand why the people are making the trip into Mexico with the hope of crossing into the US illegally. Funny thing though is how Mexico tends to treat these illegal immigrants when the pass thru on their way to the US.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...04-18-18-08-31

[ZippyDSM]

IllEagle Immrigrant Rights
At the least call it what it is....*sigh*
The only right they have is to be treated humanly as they are "MOVED"

the best thign I can think of is lockdown the board(s) as best we can via tech or fence or plain old fastion man power then start sorting them into catagories crimanls go back with out a 2nd look thos that have families or high paying jobs that are working hard to meld in the pot or at least stay out of trouble we should leave in and fine a few grand for the fee of late prosseing (can be paid over time) its not perfect but hell nothing we do will be prefect you cant jsut throw them out you cant let them in to make a new low low class of "slave" wokers for coperations hell unoins are more worried about thier coffres than wokers.....it is turely a complete mess and the coperations and their goverment lap dogs are to blame but then we are the ones to put them thier and we (thos that have voter cards) and we are to blame for not supporting a 3rd party....

This is a goverment built on law and they have broke it,but then this is also a goverment built on soverintiy whitch has been sold to the hishest bidder thanksto our new/old coperate masters.....
sorry is I am ranting but this whole mess pisses me off add Nero BUsh playing his fiddle while the republicans scrable to make as much money as they can while the demicrates sit in mettings disscussing the wrong issues or at elast not doing anythign to stop the maddness....


BTW I know theres a South American Goverment thatgot fed up with Drug companysand deside it was thier right as a nation to produce thier own genrics whitch is that,its soemthing the US can learn from if we every get away from the coperate masters....

[Kamui4356]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

You do not come willing to die in US, considering the treatment here better than your original country.

Getting into the US does risk the lives of these illegal immigrants. They wander through a desert with little or no food and water for days. Hundreds are found dead or dying in the desert each year. Not to mention those who pay people to smuggle them into the country in a hot truck, packed so tightly together, they can't even breathe. Every so often they'll be a news story on how authorties found a trailer or shipping container with 30 or so illegal immigrants in it, all dead.

[ZippyDSM]

and lettign them come here,andlettign the coperations do what they will make mroe andmore middle call people lose thier jobs try suddenly loseing you job of 10+ years and you have 1200 in meds,house,car and other thigns to pay for.

its funny the coperations have realy got to screw with everones lives the goverment has ignored it and the boarder so thatthe coperations can reap cheaplabor in the states.....its a mess...but there is a bright spot mexico has the balls to demand take down our "wall" yet they protect there other boarders..


I think I is in a rant mode ><
I need to naw on soemthign and cool off *L*
*naws on a soda bottle* mew =0_o=

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by tanuki

Think in terms of looking at countries like Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Columbia. Or for that matter at any country from Mexico down into Central America where there is high unemployment coupled with a high percentage of the population living near or below the poverty line.

Honduras:

"http://198.81.129.100/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ho.html

"One of the poorest countries in the Western Hemisphere with an extraordinarily unequal distribution of income and massive unemployment..."

Nicaragua:

http://198.81.129.100/cia/publicatio...k/geos/nu.html

"Nicaragua, one of the Western Hemisphere's poorest countries, has low per capita income, widespread underemployment, and a heavy external debt burden. Distribution of income is one of the most unequal on the globe...""

Guatemala:

http://198.81.129.100/cia/publicatio...k/geos/gt.html

"The distribution of income remains highly unequal with perhaps 75% of the population below the poverty line."

Shrug, it's not hard to understand why the people are making the trip into

I know these countries are poor and have repressive regimes. but how did they get that way? Most of them have been independent countries since 1821, close to almost 200 years. Yet instead of progressing it seems like they are regressing.

[Komataguri]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

I know these countries are poor and have repressive regimes. but how did they get that way? Most of them have been independent countries since 1821, close to almost 200 years. Yet instead of progressing it seems like they are regressing.

They got that way because lazy assholes rather run away from their problems then stay behind and actually fight to fix them.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

I know these countries are poor and have repressive regimes. but how did they get that way? Most of them have been independent countries since 1821, close to almost 200 years. Yet instead of progressing it seems like they are regressing.

Maybe when they started to move in the right direction, some agents from a big country came and created a bunch of problems so that they won't settle in the right path.

Originally Posted by Kamui4356

Getting into the US does risk the lives of these illegal immigrants. They wander through a desert with little or no food and water for days. Hundreds are found dead or dying in the desert each year. Not to mention those who pay people to smuggle them into the country in a hot truck, packed so tightly together, they can't even breathe. Every so often they'll be a news story on how authorties found a trailer or shipping container with 30 or so illegal immigrants in it, all dead.

I cannot say this for all cases, but many may not be aware of the actual dangers of the path of immigration. If they are aware of the danger and despite that they continued to act that way, then either they should be in a highly desparate situation or the dangers were considered as not major (i.e., the possibility of dying is very low).

[slayer]

Originally Posted by Komataguri

They got that way because lazy assholes rather run away from their problems then stay behind and actually fight to fix them.

You cannot say something like that without considering other factors such as social and cultural. Saying that people run away from problems is wrong. It is not always if not never the case in fourth or fifth world countries. These countries suffer from social and cultural difficulties. Areas such as Ethiopia suffer due to a unwilling change in cultural ideas. The people native to that area think more children is better due to the high infant mortality rates so they produce more children. The more mouths to feed the harder it is to maintain the economical wealth amongst the people. This society is also driven by agricultural back bone. Since this is the case, it make sense to reproduce more children than less so they can get their children to work for them. This can also be called a lack of sustainable development as well as feedback loop where the people in most underdeveloped countries are unable to support the government. These two loops is hard to near impossible to break. It is very likely no one can simply run away from problems in a country since a country with such problems already have economical, social and cultural damage as well as technological and political. Majority of smuggling countries are trapped in a demographic trap where the population is in a late transition stage where low death rate and high brith rate. The resulting high natural increase is the root of the problem. All the country's economical growth ends up being used to support the needs of the booming population; there is nothing left over to promote economical and social development that is necessary for a country to proceed to post-transition. This leads to easily a feedback loop where huge population of uneducated people try to find jobs but cannot find any due to the basic requirements of most countries thus many areas become underpowered and the government suffers for it.

On another note, illegal immigrants may be given the chance of amnesty so it is also a contrubuting factor in illgeal migration movements. Being a citizen of a wealthy nation has great benefits.

[Morgri]

In the end, I think this boycott will do them more harm then good.

[slayer]

Originally Posted by Morgri

In the end, I think this boycott will do them more harm then good.

The government can actually benefit from illegal migration but giving amnesty. This allows the illegal immigrant to be registered as a citizen of the country provided they meet the requirements of the grant. Having citizenship, the governement can get taxes from these people but on the other side, the immigrants experience full access to the country's benefits. Almost a win win for both sides but not completely...

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by slayer

The government can actually benefit from illegal migration but giving amnesty. This allows the illegal immigrant to be registered as a citizen of the country provided they meet the requirements of the grant. Having citizenship, the governement can get taxes from these people but on the other side, the immigrants experience full access to the country's benefits. Almost a win win for both sides but not completely...

But giving amensty would just enocurage more illegal immagration. If people know that no matter what the rehtoric is as long as they can figure out a way to stay int he us a few years then the government will just give in and give them legal status.

Also people keep saying how illegal immgrants are doing jobs no american would do. i think that is both true and false. If those jobs pay higher then there will be americans willing take those jobs. However with a large cheap laber supply theose will remain low and jobs will go to the most desprate.

I also understand the argument that it is this cheap labor supply that allow price at fast restrunets to remain low. But here is how i see it

Low wages ---> Low price ---> Low wage ---> low buying power ---> low price ---> low wages ---> High Corporate profit

It is a cycle where the only winner is the corporations.

[slayer]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

But giving amensty would just enocurage more illegal immagration. If people know that no matter what the rehtoric is as long as they can figure out a way to stay int he us a few years then the government will just give in and give them legal status.

Also people keep saying how illegal immgrants are doing jobs no american would do. i think that is both true and false. If those jobs pay higher then there will be americans willing take those jobs. However with a large cheap laber supply theose will remain low and jobs will go to the most desprate.

I also understand the argument that it is this cheap labor supply that allow price at fast restrunets to remain low. But here is how i see it

Low wages ---> Low price ---> Low wage ---> low buying power ---> low price ---> low wages ---> High Corporate profit

It is a cycle where the only winner is the corporations.

Thats how both sides don't fully win in a case of amnesty the two principles I stated in my earlier post are in regards to only positive aspects of the program. Both sides get negative feed back such as increased burden of a certain amount of time due to population explosion. Amnesty is only for the lucky few immigrants who actually stayed for that long and meet a strict critieria for recognition as a citizen it's like America saying I will help you provided you don't leech off me again. It is leeching when you don't pay for education or contribute back to society but take money away from it. Amnesty works in favor for government when they pay taxes on work and the such. Border potrol and all that other illegal immigration prevention programs exist for a reason. America knows it can't grant amnesty to everyone.

[tanuki]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

Maybe when they started to move in the right direction, some agents from a big country came and created a bunch of problems so that they won't settle in the right path.

In some instances that's exactly what has happened. For instance the situation with the Nicaraguan Contras and the incident back during the Reagan administration referred to as the Iran Contra scandal. The leftist Sandinistas government came to power in Nicaragua by military force which toppled the existing Somoza government, the new government was then opposed by Contra rebels in that country. The US liked the Contra rebels better than the progressively more leftist government in power so the US began supplying aid to them, which congress attempted to stop, but despite this aid was still channeled to the Contras covertly. Scandal, congressional hearings, and lots of media coverage followed. This wasn't the first time that the US involved itself in this country's intenal affairs, and it wasn't the last either. A similar story plays out in various other neighboring countries. Sometimes the Soviets and Cuba stick their noses in to covertly back a favorable leftist regime, then the US jumps in to back the opposition, and the poorly educated people living in these countries who generally could care less about the political ideology of whoever is in power at the moment (so long as they have a job and can put food on the table) are caught in the middle.

[tanuki]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

But giving amensty would just enocurage more illegal immagration. If people know that no matter what the rehtoric is as long as they can figure out a way to stay int he us a few years then the government will just give in and give them legal status.

Also people keep saying how illegal immgrants are doing jobs no american would do. i think that is both true and false. If those jobs pay higher then there will be americans willing take those jobs. However with a large cheap laber supply theose will remain low and jobs will go to the most desprate.

I also understand the argument that it is this cheap labor supply that allow price at fast restrunets to remain low. But here is how i see it

Low wages ---> Low price ---> Low wage ---> low buying power ---> low price ---> low wages ---> High Corporate profit

It is a cycle where the only winner is the corporations.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060404/underground_workers.html

It is a complex problem, as this story mentions illegal immigrants help to keep corporate profits up and prices down. The downside is that it can depress wages for legal workers because the illegals will work for less. There has been a continuing trend by US businesses to move their operations to countries that have an abundant supply of cheap labor willing to work for less wages and benefits than US workers. With the situation of illegal immigrants coming into the US, it's like that foreign labor pool is moving into the US to get the jobs. So if the cheap labor pool dries up what happens then....will some or many companies who can no longer hire cheap labor pick up the pace to relocate more facilities outside of the US? Or would these companies remain in the US, pay more to hire legal US workers, and pass on the cost of increased wages and benefits to consumers in the form of higher prices for products? I think the companies would try to relocate facilities outside the US rather than do this, because staying in the US would put them at an economic disadvantage if their competitors are able to export cheaper products into the US. Unless protectionist US trade policies are used to prevent this.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by tanuki

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060404/underground_workers.html

It is a complex problem, as this story mentions illegal immigrants help to keep corporate profits up and prices down. The downside is that it can depress wages for legal workers because the illegals will work for less. There has been a continuing trend by US businesses to move their operations to countries that have an abundant supply of cheap labor willing to work for less wages and benefits than US workers. With the situation of illegal immigrants coming into the US, it's like that foreign labor pool is moving into the US to get the jobs. So if the cheap labor pool dries up what happens then....will some or many companies who can no longer hire cheap labor pick up the pace to relocate more facilities outside of the US? Or would these companies remain in the US, pay more to hire legal US workers, and pass on the cost of increased wages and benefits to consumers in the form of higher prices for products? I think the companies would try to relocate facilities outside the US rather than do this, because staying in the US would put them at an economic disadvantage if their competitors are able to export cheaper products into the US. Unless protectionist US trade policies are used to prevent this.

Thats true only apply to the manufacturing industry but not to the service industry. Take walmart for example. Walmart sells thier iems at low low price becuase they paid very low wages with very low benfits. So what happens thier competitors to compete with walmart the also need to cost to cut prices and that depress the wages. This is true also of the construction industry, hotel industry and other low skill services industry jobs.

[HoboGod]

It is impossible for me to speak for the good of all humanity as just one person, so I will express my view in parable. Interpet it however you want.



There was once an old man who was very good at finding and producing food that it took almost no work at all. Over the years, this man became very fat and lazy.

One day, a young man came before this fat old man and said "I have been trying to gather food all day, but I am too hungry to keep searching. May I have have some of your food?"

The old man replied, "This food is mine. You may not have any."

That young man died a few days later. Striken by guilt, the old man gave food to the next person in need of help.

"Thank you very much, how can I repay you?" asked this young man.

"I have more than enough food, I do not need your help," replied the old man. "But if you want more food than the scraps I give you, plant your own food in my garden."

This man was overjoyed and made almost as much food as the fat old man would eat himself. But still, the supply of food was more than either of them could ever eat.

Over the next few monthes, the fat old man saw that his young friend was still thin and starved. "You eat almost as much as I, why are you not as fat?"

The young man replied, "I do not eat all the food I am given. I have many brothers who are exhausted and unable to get food. Would you like to meet my brothers?"

The fat old man agreed and they walked ten miles to the young man's home. The brothers seemed sickly and dying. It was heartbreaking to think they were so unlucky.

"I don't know what to say," said the old man. "I wish I could bring them my food, but the walk is so far and it is out of my way. If they wish to come to my home, I would gladly feed them."

"Sadly, my brothers are too sick and weak from lack of food to walk more than a few feet. Only a few could make the trip like you and I. If we made trips together, we could feed them."

"No," replied the old man. "I do not enjoy walking and would rather they starve to death. And-" he said, quickly changing his words, "-my food is not limitless, I could not feed everyone and still remain fat."

The years passed and the fat, lazy, old man let the brothers starve. Some were able to walk to the old man's home, some could not and remained unhealthy.

One day, the young man came to the old man and asked, "Now that we have known eachother for so long, may I slept in your house instead of outside?"

"Absolutely not!" replied the old man, "I do not know you!"

"But of course you know me, you've met my brothers and have gone to my home. How could you forget our suffering faces?"

"I have not," said the old man. "I have never met you and your brothers and I know nothing of this suffering. You are merely hoodlems stealing my food!"

Rightful so, that young man was confused.

A few years again passed and the old man died. His food was pillaged and no one could mourn his death. The old man's secret to obtaining food was never taught to anyone and the young man and his brothers starved to death within a year.

[tanuki]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

Thats true only apply to the manufacturing industry but not to the service industry. Take walmart for example. Walmart sells thier iems at low low price becuase they paid very low wages with very low benfits. So what happens thier competitors to compete with walmart the also need to cost to cut prices and that depress the wages. This is true also of the construction industry, hotel industry and other low skill services industry jobs.

It would also apply to the service sector, at least to operations like customer call centers which businesses can outsource to foreign countries that have the cheap skilled (or trainable) labor necessary.

With companies like Walmart, they've had problems with the INS over their subcontractors hiring illegal aliens to keep costs down and profits up. Yes, their wages and benefits for employees are relatively low, but one area that helps Walmart cut costs is their position as the 500 lb gorilla in the retail market. They are in a better bargaining position to get favorable deals on large quantities of merchandise to fill their huge distribution centers, which in turn goes to stock their retail store shelves. They have the economies of scale thing working to their advantage and their competitors have had a hard time dealing with it. In addition to this Walmart throws more retail stores into a city than might seem reasonable without one Walmart store taking business away from another Walmart store nearby. That's fine with Walmart though, their individual store sales may decline because of this but they aren't losing business to an actual competitor in the local market. Those additional stores will however serve to strip some percentage of sales away from any nearby competitors like Target. Once the competition is driven out of business they can always close stores and push people to their stores further away that remain open. Possible new competitors will be hesitant to move in knowing there's a closed Walmart nearby that in a short period of time could be fully stocked and reopened.

[SpecterVR]

I thought most illegal immigrants were people who haven't renewed their green cards, and have been citizens before. xD I'm not sure, I can't back up that claim but I heard it from a teacher, so I didn't take it with the usual barrel of salt.

Honestly, I think that whole Immigration Bill was a(nother) distraction. After reading it, It was completely and totally unrealistic. Wholesale Produce Markets rely on the Illegal Immigrants, as well as many other markets. To split up families and outright support such an unrealistic bill in regards to 11 million people is ridiculous. I mean, if it were 100-200, maybe even 1000 people it may have been a possibility. But its purely not. x_X

My two cents, its another distraction that tons of people fell for so easily. But at least it hasn't had drastic results that the other distractions have. *stares at gay marriage & abortion*