[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[ErenselTheJester]

I see, so continuing the subject, people knew that Kinzo was dead in the first place and decided to exploit that and try to get the money. Yet that explains how did they know, the only people who would about Kinzo's death would be the servants and Krauss. With that in mind, wouldn't the servant's have a reason to start this whole thing? Yet almost all of them die every game, so what's the point of self-sacrifice when money is in question?

[Kit]

Well, there's also the matter that Kyrie figures out that Kinzo is dead, so there's no reason why none of the siblings don't know about this, or at the very least suspect this...which brings us back to square one...I mean, it's always been interesting to me that the siblings all plan on blackmailing Krauss, but never Kinzo himself.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Kit

Well, there's also the matter that Kyrie figures out that Kinzo is dead, so there's no reason why none of the siblings don't know about this, or at the very least suspect this...which brings us back to square one...I mean, it's always been interesting to me that the siblings all plan on blackmailing Krauss, but never Kinzo himself.

Well I think all of them are scared by Kinzo to an extent. Even in his old age the very thought of even trying to go head on against him might frighten them. He is known to crush any one who dares to oppose him, especially speaking economically.

[Renall]

It's clear that Kyrie is not the only person suspicious of Kinzo's potential death. Eva's actions in ep1 clearly indicate she's at least a little bit suspicious of the possibility. I suspect everyone was fooled the previous year, and are starting to realize what's going on. Even if nobody found out in 1986, it's almost a certainty that if Kinzo were not present by 1987 that the other siblings would be calling their lawyers.

[Sir Andy Richter]

Is it possible Kinzo has only been dead for like..a week or so?

[Klashikari]

since it is the spoiler thread, information from Episode 5 is to be expected so, here comes how the adults had a hunch of it.


In episode 5, we learn that Krauss, Natsuhi and the servants playacted that Kinzo heard Eva discussing about the inheritance with Rudolf in the corridor, in 1985. Because of this, they made Kinzo "mad", which allowed them to pretend Kinzo doesn't want to get out of his hole.
Then, in 1986, Hideyoshi was discussing with Eva, concerned about how it was strange that none of them saw kinzo, yet Krauss etc claims he went batshit.
Likening the situation with few lords of the feud period of Japan, Hideyoshi suspected in the end that Krauss might have been hiding Kinzo's death ever since last year. However, he cannot grasp why would he do that, since it is really suicide.

Anyway, it is confirmed in Episode 5 that Kinzo died in 1985.

Thus, this explains why Eva wedged Kinzo's study door with a receipt, and likewise, everyone's suspicions regarding Krauss in every Episode.

[KanonTheFurniture]

I figured that Kinzo was still alive in EP2's flashback to when Shannon and George first started having feelings for each other, since Eva wanted George to meet with Kinzo and it seemed certain that the siblings had actually seen and talked to him already. That wasn't in October, most likely, since it wasn't the conference but Eva's family just dropped by on their own, but I don't remember any specific time frame given. I always wondered if that was one or two years prior to the present, though if he's confirmed to have died in 1985 that means this meeting was in '85...so presumably it was shortly after where 'Beatrice' offered Shannon her assistance if she broke the mirror, and she did.

The thing I want to know is the correlation between the breaking of the mirror and the shrine being destroyed, since in EP1 on the boat everyone says that the shrine was there the previous year, but according to Jessica, it's been gone since the summer (which was when Shannon and George went to Okinawa, so it was after the mirror was broken) and a lightning bolt struck it. I'm just curious how long Shannon sat on her decision 'to break or not to break', as it were, before she decided to do it.

[Jan-Poo]

We don't have any clear info on the exact time that flashback happened, however we know that Kinzo was still alive, so at best it can be 1985 before Kinzo died, but this might as well have happened one year earlier in 1984.

As for Shannon breaking the mirror it was most probably at the start of the summer of 1986 or shortly before that.

Either way it took some time for Shannon to make a decision.

[Ronove]

Hmm.
Out of the topic here but; if we're relating this game to Zelda, Beatrice may be a seagull!
At the end of Episode 4, Battler fainted and a seagull pecked his eye out! :S

Anywho, Kinzo's time of death was surely after Kanon arrived (traumatic experience much), so it must be betweem 1983 ~ 1986.
From what I heard from Episode 5, Kinzo died for several years. For 2 years or so, Natsushi and Krauss plans this diversion and excuse for Kinzo; which may have caused Natsushi's crazy imaginations!

[Jan-Poo]

Yeah there's someone who has thought the same thing before:

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

We don't have any clear info on the exact time that flashback happened, however we know that Kinzo was still alive, so at best it can be 1985 before Kinzo died, but this might as well have happened one year earlier in 1984.

As for Shannon breaking the mirror it was most probably at the start of the summer of 1986 or shortly before that.

Either way it took some time for Shannon to make a decision.

According to the anime the timeline is like this:

George has a marriage meeting and Beatrice asks Shannon to break the mirror - 1984
Shannon breaks the mirror - 1985

Kinzo meeting with George in 1984 during the meeting (since Eva said Kinzo was coming downstairs) means that the marriage meeting probably occurred before the October conference that year, since that's when Kinzo first didn't show up.

[Jan-Poo]

Correction: the family meeting of 1984 was the last one when Kinzo did show up.

Which is why It's 99% certain that epitaph and the portrait were both his ideas.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Correction: the family meeting of 1984 was the last one when Kinzo did show up.

Which is why It's 99% certain that epitaph and the portrait were both his ideas.

How can you be so certain?

Clearly he had the epitaph and portrait placed around that time but how do you know he was the one who wrote it?

The part about putting the witch to sleep for all time doesn't fit with what we have been shown of Kinzo.

I'm only about 80% certain they were his ideas.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Correction: the family meeting of 1984 was the last one when Kinzo did show up.

Which is why It's 99% certain that epitaph and the portrait were both his ideas.

I find it weird that he doesn't show up to the conference but then decides to come down just to meet with George and discuss an arranged marriage. Wasn't the entire point of him deciding not to come down anymore was because he got fed up with the family and just engrossed himself in the occult more so than before?

[Used Can]

As far as I remember, he did show up to the family conferences every year, except during 1985 and 1986, because he was dead.

[Jan-Poo]

That's correct, even after Kinzo started to live a life of seclusion (which happened in 1967) in his study he never failed to show up at the family conference, and that is precisely why after 1985 the younger siblings and their spouses started to become suspicious.

How can you be so certain?

Clearly he had the epitaph and portrait placed around that time but how do you know he was the one who wrote it?

The part about putting the witch to sleep for all time doesn't fit with what we have been shown of Kinzo.

I'm only about 80% certain they were his ideas.

Well even if they weren't his ideas, he still approved them. Since he was still alive and in his right mind when the portrait and the epitaph were shown.

[KanonTheFurniture]

Well, I think the 'in his right mind' part is debatable, but indeed, he was probably still alive two years ago when both the epitaph and portrait were hung. Unless they were put up right after he died - which is still possible, but I don't know if I like it - then he had to have at least signed off on them. I mean, a painting like that isn't painted overnight, and isn't it Genji who says his master commissioned it to be painted? I know he's also in on the whole 'Kinzo is dead' thing but it still doesn't strike me as something he'd lie about. He could at least say 'it is a painting of my master's beloved witch' or something else worded differently that doesn't seem to imply that yes, Kinzo indeed wanted that hung in the hall.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by KanonTheFurniture

Unless they were put up right after he died - which is still possible

Well this is not possible unless all the family members are lying are being silent about that lie. Because they have all seen Kinzo in 1984 and at the same time the witch's epitaph and portrait were already visible in the main hall.

Episode5 confirms this even further by placing Kinzo's death somewhere in 1985, and we previously knew that the epitaph is there since the family conference if 1984.

as for the "right mind" part, I meant to say he didn't have alzheimer or any senile impairment in his brain that prevented him from making conscious decisions not matter how crazy they are. If that was the case they family members would have noticed that, but nothing of the sort has been said.

[Renall]

I don't know if I really believe Kinzo was ever insane. His seclusion may well have an explicable cause, and his grief may not be as nuts as people claim it is. All his other "insane" acts - the ritual, sacrifices, Goldsmith - are clearly false, because he's dead and can't be talking about the events of 1986 because he isn't there.

Certainly, Kinzo seems to have been a hard man, and possibly even greatly disliked his "real" family (perhaps in favor of one he had with the first Beatrice?). But we have only flashbacks and stories to go on, and even if the tellers of those stories are telling their truth, it doesn't make it the truth.

It's easy to question the motives of people. Eva's memories of Kinzo's derision may be "punched up" to make him seem worse than he is. She has an inferiority complex, after all, and isn't nearly as awesome as she thinks she is. By "remembering" her father as constantly against her success, she doesn't ever have to admit that she might just have not been good enough. Kinzo's closest relationships are with people who are either dead or refuse to speak about him: his wife, Beatrice (original and 1967), Genji, Nanjo, etc. He's been compared to Battler a lot, but short of a shared tenacity they appear to be nothing alike. Or are they actually more similar than people think?

I'm still hoping for a flashback to the 30s or 40s to see what Kinzo was really like. He's one of my favorite characters and the one whose personality is most questionable. The "real" Kinzo is still very much hidden from the reader. Of course, it might be part of the point that we never uncover the "real" Kinzo... or perhaps the epitaph is our only hint.

[chounokoe]

I still somehow get the feeling that once we see what the real Kinzo was like, we will get a totally different picture of him.
I started thinking wether he might have might a decision in the past concerning the gold and his Beatrice, which left him bitter towards money issues for the rest of his life, he may have even resented his status as family head...at least we were never exactly shown or told that he liked it.
I can't imagine a man that is actually so hard on his own children, without reason, would open up an orphanage and actually give those children eductation and a job which results in an at least stable future. So I asked myself what could it be that makes Kinzo so hard on his children...but in the end his children were not really that nice themselves as far as we've been shown. They started the whole fight about the succession, the heritage and possessions relatively early...we know that Eva doesn't remember ever NOT competing with Krauss.
Maybe that was what drove Kinzo to resent his children if he ever actually did, maybe he is just hard on them because they have everything else in life and should be proud of it, yet they don't show any kind of comapsion...愛が無ければ見えない...without love one can't see....
Even Natsuhi assumed some terrible plan behind Kinzo granting her a child...maybe Kinzo just didn't want her to fall prey to the siblings struggles...she didn't even give it a thought and resented the child for showing her her incapability as a woman.

So I somehow see Kinzo coming up as a quite bitter man who was lost hope in his family, but who has still hope that with love everything can be solved...