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View Poll Results: The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya - Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 236 | 64.31% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 95 | 25.89% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 25 | 6.81% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 7 | 1.91% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 3 | 0.82% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 1 | 0.27% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 0 | 0% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 0 | 0% | |
Voters: 367. You may not vote on this poll |
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2010-07-12, 23:14 | Link #262 |
餓鬼に興味ない、俺の好みは年上の美女だ
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Shitty old London. They must've been on drugs when they built this place, WTF were they smoking!!!
Age: 40
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Just got back from holiday in Tokyo/Osaka... actually its been two weeks now. Man, I didn't wanna come back... being back in London sucks.
Anyway, made sure to watch Disappearance some time during the trip, even though I've already seen the cam-rip. But it was worth every penny! Went to see it at Movix cinema in Kashihara... man it was some proper back water area. When we got out the station I was skeptical whether there was a even a cinema around But wow, seeing it on big screen was so much more awsome! You spot stuff you can't make out in the cam-rip. One detail I really didn't see in the cam-rip was that there were reflections even in the blood drops when Asakura is spinning around and swinging her knife.
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2010-08-02, 10:56 | Link #265 |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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Stable time-loops. The same way Kyon knows about Mikuru's mole when adult Mikuru told him, while young Mikuru had to be told about the mole by Kyon afterwards. Don't think in a straight line.
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2010-08-04, 02:18 | Link #267 | |
Anime Cynic
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: USA
Age: 35
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Furthermore, there's a very real time paradox that's conveniently ignored for the sake of the plot. Spoiler for paradox during the climax:
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2010-08-04, 03:01 | Link #268 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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A ball cannot loop through time because it is physical and will degrade. But INFORMATION, Data, can loop through time as many incidences as it likes without a beginning. You only ASSUME everything has a beginning because you can't travel through time, it's like saying flying is impossible if you have never heard of a plane. There is a difference between something that is impossible and something you have never seen.
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2010-08-04, 03:17 | Link #269 | |
Anime Cynic
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: USA
Age: 35
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Think about it this way. Person A is Person B's biological father. Person B is person A's biological father. Is this possible? No, because there are mutually exclusive preconditions. The same would be true in a time loop. Eternal or not, if you have mutually exclusive preconditions, the two things will never happen. If you know anything about programming, you'll know this has to be true. A computer program is just information, right? It's not physical, it will never degrade, and so on. And yet, it's impossible to simultaneously start two mutually dependent processes. That's just the way logic works. There's also a difference between an assumed impossibility and a logical impossibility. If I roll a four sided die and it never lands on 4, I might assume it's loaded and can never land on 4. That's an assumed impossibility, and I could very well be wrong. However, I can't be wrong if I say it will never land on 5. Getting a 5 with a four sided die is a logical impossibility. It simply cannot happen. |
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2010-08-04, 03:38 | Link #270 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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Which is strange, because by all means you should find much of the Haruhi series impossible to comprehend. You listed examples of what you know how things work as evidence that stable timeloops are impossible, the same way someone could claim flight is impossible by strapping wings to himself and fall off a cliff. But here is the point; for timetraveling to the past to occur, information needs to be able to go backwards in time. It is as necessary as saying you need to eat food in order to have breakfast. And what is the definition of the "beginning" of a piece of information? The earliest point in time when the information existed. But that made no sense when with time travel allow information to go outside the flow. The very IDEA of a "beginning" is stuck on the very concept that everything could only flow forward in the timestream. A timemachine blows a hole in that idea immediately.
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2010-08-04, 04:39 | Link #271 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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Of course that leads into the question on if it is only time travel, and not dimention hopping.
And what it means to recreate the world like one is a god. (Note it needs to be done at least twice to set things to "normal"). Then there is the Endless Eight. A time loop...but is it stable? What is its beginning? The first day in August that Kyon gets that phone call from Haruhi? Or was it August 30 when Haruhi was unsatisfied wth her summer? Or was it sometime before that when Haruhi's subconscience decided to start over again? And was it even the first loop that they started looping? Haruhi might have been happy in the first loop, but another loop/dimension she was not and reset all dimensions so they looped. The "last" loop could have been the first were she was "happy" and thus it did not loop. Also it might have been that not all loops actually looped, just that is how Yuki preceived them in her observations. Also...who can tell exactly what Mikuru's job is as a time traveller? Does she have a beginning and an ending? Which version of her came first into the timeline? We don't know for sure.
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2010-08-04, 09:22 | Link #272 | ||||
Anime Cynic
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: USA
Age: 35
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Time travel, any sort of time travel, still has an inherent understanding that time flows forward by default. Altering the past isn't done by doing something that cascades backward; it's done by inserting yourself at an earlier point in that flow and doing something that cascades forward (ultimately affecting things that occurred before you went back in time). Cause and effect still exist. Consider a small stream. A person standing at a particular spot in that stream will have water flowing around his feet. Now let's say that person goes 50 feet upriver and drops a big boulder in it, diverting or halting the flow of water. When he returns to his original spot, it's different from when he started, even though he's at the exact same location. It's clear that the ability to move freely in a river (or time) doesn't prove that the river (or time) has no flow. Go ahead, try to imagine a world without cause and effect. It's chaos, isn't it? Quote:
In short, because there was a "first" loop, the loop was unstable and began at midnight on the last day of summer. Because it had a beginning, and because that beginning was at the tail end of an iteration, it must have been looping sequentially. EDIT: Well how about that? Today's Dinosaur Comics references time loops. And as that spurred further research on Wikipedia and the like, I've learned that this ridiculous concept is actually quite prevalent in science fiction. Does that mean I'm going to stop arguing against it? Nope. Last edited by Gamer_2k4; 2010-08-04 at 12:55. |
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2010-08-04, 13:41 | Link #273 | |
Sav'aaq!
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Hyrule
Age: 51
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But I will say this. You're arguing this from the wrong angle. This isn't science, It's literature. It's a storytelling method. Its very reason for existence is to turn logic on its ear. That's why there's no one "correct" way to look at it. Just on this page, you've already seen discussion of alternate timelines as...well, an alternative to the stable time loop. And yes, assuming time travel into the past without "changing" the present is possible, it is possible to go back and become one's own grandfather. Being yourself and being your grandfather are not "mutually exclusive" if the one thing keeping them mutually exclusive in the real world (not being able to exist before one's birth) is surpassed. Haven't you ever seen Futurama?
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2010-08-04, 14:06 | Link #274 | ||
Anime Cynic
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: USA
Age: 35
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I guess my biggest issue right now is this. If we step back and view time as a single entity rather than a progression, the loops might almost work out. The bigger problem, then, is that time is now a single entity. In other words, there's no development or any of that; the entire past, present, and future are all one thing. They're set in stone. Everything is predestined. I'm just not sure I'm willing to make the compromise of sacrificing free will to retain logic. |
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2010-08-04, 14:52 | Link #275 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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Considering that at this point in time (us) we have no means of even testing any theories about time travel, or time itself really since we are stuck on a linear plain of existance, it is difficult to comprehend if anything about time travel is possible or not.
As for "north of the north pole" That depends on how you define north and the 720 degrees of motion around it. Since the north pole is "north" of the "magnetic north pole" on a map, even though on a compass you would be "south" of "north" if you were standing on the north pole. Then you have spacial orientation compared to the Polaris (the North Star) which is pretty much directly over the North Pole. It is above the pole, or north of the pole? Also since one has to go in a direction of travel from the north pole, the only logical direction is south, but this is incorrect since there are still 720 degrees of movement. As for predestined events...that is Mikuru's idea of time (she is the time traveller after all), though Yuki seems to have a different idea of time (the alien that can bend data to her will), and Haruhi/Kyon break the rules. Itsuki's ideas...well he believes in Kyon and Haruhi. Thus it is entirely possible that the loop is not as closed at it appears. Enter: one Kyon, one Haruhi, one Yuki, one Mikuru, one Itsuki. Emergency Program: Exit one Kyon Re-start: Enter: two Kyons, one Haruhi, one Yuki, two Mikuru, one Itsuki Post-script: Enter three Kyons?, One Haruhi, two Yuki (what?), Three Mikuru, One Itsuki. (Wait, what?) Reset complete: Exit One Kyon, Two Mikuru (supposely). Time restarts after incident: Umm...there is still an extra Kyon and Yuki...isn't there? Yuki is actually covered...but what about the extra Kyon? There is the one that is asleep, the one that come forward from the past with Mikuru (BIG) and the one that must have come back from the future to save himself with Mikuru(small) (and I suppose Yuki since that's the only one I know of that can stop Ryoko). The stabbed Kyon recovers in the hospital with some kind of cover story...the future Kyon goes back to his own time I suppose....but umm, what about the sleeping one? He's the one that would go to school to find things messed up, then go back in time to set things right, come forward again, get stabbed, then saved, reset time, come back at a later time to save himself..then go on with his "abnormal" life with Haruhi and the SOS-dan. But if one version fixes time, then the other shouldn't have to do that, breaking the loop from happening. Except the world still had to be altered before they could fix the damages....and we didn't see the resolution of that in the movie did we. Kyon never completed his mission (the blue haired one sort of stopped him cold), yet his future self took up the task it seems...yet Kyon passed out so we didn't get to see how things resolved (or if they resolved...since falling down the stairs while feeling a stab wound to the kidney doesn't fit...does it). Ah the wonders of not having the whole story to finish the time loop theories.
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2010-08-04, 15:27 | Link #276 | ||
Anime Cynic
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: USA
Age: 35
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2010-08-04, 17:05 | Link #277 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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That's why Mikuru has mental security that prevents her from leaking secrets. If time-line is fixed, there would be no point preventing her from altering time. Quite simply, if the future changed, everyone Mikuru knew back home will cease to BE. Currently the Haruhi universe made it clear that outside of those with superpowers, everyone will make the choice that they will make. It is still their CHOICE to make them, just because the future results exist doesn't invalidate their choice. We are what we choose to be, and the future is whatever we make. The only people who are screwed up and you should feel pity for are the people from the Future. They are obsessed with doing what they feel they had to do because of knowledge from the future. That is why Yuki locked herself out of reading the future; she knows she will make the same choices regardless of whether she know the end results or not, so why bother knowing the future at all? Haruhi doesn't apply, of course. Nothing applies for Haruhi.
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2010-08-04, 23:34 | Link #278 | |||
Sav'aaq!
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Hyrule
Age: 51
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2010-08-04, 23:46 | Link #279 | |||
Anime Cynic
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: USA
Age: 35
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You say that the existence of a future doesn't invalidate someone's choices; I disagree. If there is only one action a person will EVER take in a given situation (which would be the only way to have a static future), then they don't have a choice. You're right, there would be no point in preventing Mikuru from slipping up, but the time travelers will do it anyway. They can never do anything else. Furthermore, what would be the point of Yuki locking herself out of the future if the end results are the same? Why not have the additional knowledge from knowing the future if it's not going to change anything? If I hand you a complete map and say, "You can name this city whatever you want, as long as it's Atlanta," you really don't have a choice, do you? The fact that the map exists precludes your having any freedom in your decision. Incidentally, you've hit upon the main reason why time travel is fundamentally flawed. "If the future is changed, everyone Mikuru knew back home will cease to BE." Exactly! So the very fact that they exist means that the future can't change! It's one giant closed time loop, one giant fixed entity. The time travelers don't need to wish that the future is fixed, because it must be. This really begs the question of why they time travel at all? Without their influence, the past is the past. It's unchangeable, and they're protected. Oh, Haruhi is exempt? Well, the only reason for that is because SOMEONE was dicking around and took Kyon back in time. Disappearance made it clear that even with his influence, Haruhi wasn't necessarily going to go to North High. She might have ended up normal. So why introduce the extra stimulus at all? Quote:
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ONE FINAL EDIT: The fact that the things we're talking about are described as paradoxes (ontological paradox, predestination paradox, grandfather paradox) means that they all cause problems logic is unable to resolve. Do they make for good reading and an entertaining movie? No question. It's just that these things are not possible, whether in fiction or reality. If they were defensible, they wouldn't be paradoxes. If the logic worked, they wouldn't be paradoxes. However, no one has been able to make a convincing argument against the paradoxical nature of plot devices like these, and that's really not going to change on an internet forum. Last edited by Gamer_2k4; 2010-08-05 at 00:44. |
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2010-08-05, 00:41 | Link #280 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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The problem is the question, "is it a closed loop?"
We don't know for sure. It seems closed, but there could always be a gap in the loop (specifically Kyon). Also there is a problem with the predestination argument within the series. The future cannot be changed so the choice don't matter...however we find that choice is possible and can change things to some degree. See the Endless Eight. The loops were not exactly the same. If time could not be altered, each loop would have been the same reguardless of what Kyon or anyones else does. In fact even the weather was not the same in the various loops. Sometimes it was sunny, sometimes overcast with huge thunder clouds and sometimes it rained. Thus even the enviroment is subject to change even in a simple two week time loop. As for the "extra 360 degrees" I consider all movement in a three dimensional enviroment valid since we do not live in a two dimensional world of a map. Up and down are valid movements even if not typical.
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best movie ever, haruhi suzumiya |
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