Tokyo's Youth Ordinance Bill

[Triple_R]

The problem with this bill is three-fold.

1) It's wording is simply too nebulous and vague. That's bad for any law, at any time, regardless of what it's for or about. In the context of this bill, the practical ramifications of the vague wording is that it leaves itself open to abuse by pertinent law enforcement agencies. Let's assume, just for argument's sake (because it almost certainly isn't the case, in actuality), that the people behind this bill have only the most benign and good of intentions. Even so, that doesn't preclude some new politician, or Japan's closest equivalent to a District Attorney, from coming in and using the vague wording of this bill (if it passes) as a pretext to really go after certain animes or mangas or video games, even simply as a matter of a personal vendetta.

2) As an age rating system, it's disturbingly crude and simplistic. It essentially renders everything either "R" (adults only) or "G" (general audience). I mean, even if you agree with the idea of an age rating system (I myself see some value in the concept, but that's a separate discussion), this is a very poor age rating system. There's no middle ground here - there's nothing akin to PG or PG-13 - it's an age rating system that treats 17 year olds the same as 5 year olds, and that's just silly, really. Now, in practical application, that could result in slightly edgy borderline material - material that most of us here would likely agree a mid-to-late teen can handle - to be restricted to adults.

3) In some ways, this is the most disturbing factor - the likely intent behind this bill is very dubious to say the least. The fact that it actually removes sections targeting real child pornography, and focuses strictly on anime, manga, and games, suggests that there's a pretty clear agenda behind this bill. It strongly suggests that the bill is a brazenly anti-otaku bill. You could pretty much call this the "Anti-Kirino" bill (Ore no Imouto fans will know what I'm getting at there ). It targets everything that her character loves, but nothing except that.


Now, if the bill passes, that's when the rubber hits the road, and the key will be how manga publishers respond in the short-term, and secondly how strictly the bill is enforced in the long-term. Sadly, some manga publishers seem to be already running for the hills, frankly. If this bill passes, and those types of reactions on the part of manga publishers keeps up, it actually won't matter how strictly the bill is enforced. The manga publishers themselves could bring drastic changes to the word of manga, and anime by extension.

[Dr. Casey]

Toriyama speaking out against the bill would be great, but I doubt that would ever happen. He's a very laid-back and docile person, the only way I could ever see him protesting might be if this was passed whenever Dragon Ball was still in syndication.

[Key Board]

May not be affected by the bill:

Anything that already runs in a weekly shounen manga. Keyword here is MAYBE.
It depends on how Tokyo interpret things. The governor has some considerably
Conservative values, mind you.

Probably will be affected by the bill.

Anything that runs in a MONTHLY manga. Examples: Comic Red, Dengeki Daioh
most likely Ichigo Red Champion (Aki Sora runs in this magazine)

The things is.. Seinen are magazine are INTENDED for viewers aged 18+, but to my knowledge
there is nothing that is enforcing the rule. This may be enforced.

Champion Red is an oddball IIRC, because unlike Ichigo Champion Red it is not considered Seinen. This may have to change too.

Berserk to my knowledge runs in a seinen magazine, so it itself it won't be targeted, but Seinen as a whole will probably be forced to only sell to legal adults.. if they haven't already. (needs confirmation)

Shows like Yosuga no Sora, I am not sure about. To my knowledge this runs on AT-X which is a paid cable channel intended for 18+ audience. But I think it also runs on other channels, and that too may have to change.

But yes, this would leave nothing for middle ground. It's either G or R-18

[Key Board]

Originally Posted by Taufiq91

So Akira Toriyama is less famous than Miyazaki?

Sure, we need Miyazaki as well. But someone like Akira Toriyama has more influence globally than Miyazaki.

Unfortunately, Miyazaki isn't subtle about his opinions. He would support the bill. He wants all shows to be like Ghibli

It's no secret that he does NOT like the shows that this bill will restrict

[Yui Is My Wife]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Would Toaru Majutsu no Index be classified as harmful because of fanservice, or just Kuroko's yuri antics? (neither of which sits well with me fyi ; Kuroko doesn't actually do anything sexual)

Though under Ishihara's interpretation, the negatives for Episode 2 of Railgun Season 1 (hopefully there would be a season 2 ) could very well be burnt as they would "encourage lacing your loved one's sports drinks with date-rape drugs to get them to loosen up to sexual advances." Kuroko-chan would also be labled as "a fiendish banner under which homosexuals rally" by the evil homophobe.

Like to lace HIS sports drink with Kuroko-chan's "computer parts" and throw him in a death-row cell with a big-bald cellmate called Bubba who has not had a girfriend in 10 years and is about to get the chair. THAT would be a comedy video to watch in the deacdes to come!!

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Yui Is My Wife

Though under Ishihara's interpretation, the negatives for Episode 2 could very well be burnt as they would "encourage lacing your loved one's sports drinks with date-rape drugs to get them to loosen up to sexual advances." Kuroko-chan would also be labled as "a fiendish banner under which homosexuals rally" by the evil homophobe.

Fyi, i was asking about Index, not Railgun.
I already figured that much about Kuroko and episode 2 of Railgun.



Now I realize this isn't a word-for-word english translation of the bill, but according to this summary of the bill's major points:

- Now the criteria will be expanded to include: “Any manga, animation, or pictures (but not including real life pictures or footage) that features either sexual or pseudo sexual acts that would be illegal in real life, or sexual or pseudo sexual acts between close relatives whose marriage would be illegal*, where such depictions and / or presentations unjustifiably glorify or exaggerate the activity.”
- Any material that is excessively breaches this standard can be deemed to be “harmful material” by the Tokyo Metropolitan Government unilaterally and thereby restrict their circulation from all minors (0-17 of age).

Since fanservice isn't an "act" (and isn't specifically sexual), then unless this summary and that site are way off, normal fanservice wouldn't fall under the bill.

But as I said, it would be nice to hear it directly from an official source before I put my mind at ease.

[klare]

read about this current hot topic, i am suspecting this has nothing to do the good of the youth in Tokyo, but only to gain political advantages

[Myssa Rei]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

*snip*
But as I said, it would be nice to hear it directly from an official source before I put my mind at ease.

I posted the original SEVERAL PAGES AGO.

Relevant clarification by Aohige:

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=168

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Since fanservice isn't an "act" (and isn't specifically sexual), then unless this summary and that site are way off, normal fanservice wouldn't fall under the bill.

Greetings, Shinji-san. This is Ishihara Shintarō speaking, and I would like to respond to your understandable concerns that Bill 156 doesn't go far enough. You will be relieved to know that I have deliberately left it ambiguous so those perverted mangaka can't wriggle out on technicalities. In the case you highlight, the following are deemed to be "acts" for the purposes of the law:

• Showing pantsu, even involuntarily
• Jiggling
• Taking baths
• Wearing bloomers to P.E. class
• And anything else I think of later

Even if this wasn't the case, so-called "fanservice" pre-supposes an audience. The mere act of "serving" the audience glorifies and/or exaggerates the disgusting sexual nature of what is shown, so my new law will protect our precious youth from fanservice as well as other vices.

I trust this puts your mind at ease, and I humbly thank you for your support of my crusade to cleanse Japan of all moral impurities. Please continue to vote for me.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Taufiq91

So Akira Toriyama is less famous than Miyazaki?

Um, guys. Fujiko. Freaking. Fujio.

Not a single person in Japan not know their name. (and yes, one of them is still alive)
Thank you.

Originally Posted by Key Board

May not be affected by the bill:

Anything that already runs in a weekly shounen manga. Keyword here is MAYBE.

Not true at all. Someone else got this same idea on another board, perhaps you read some translation somewhere?
I read the bill in Japanese, and I do not see it excluding new publication of continuing work anywhere.
It will most likely, like all laws likewise, will not retroactively apply to already published material.
But that does NOT mean it will not apply to newly published material of continuing work.

That would make NO sense. To give special privileges to some and not all.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by flying ^

ero shoujo manga does
there are even highly detailed how-to-guides in those mangas
sankaku ran an entry/article on that (dated Oct 30, 2008)

"Shoujo manga is actually some of the most explicit manga outside of actual ero-manga, vastly more so than shonen manga and seemingly considerably more so than most seinen manga.

Thus, I couldn’t help but notice the interesting question raised by the Vippers in this thread, “Why doesn’t it ever get censored?” Examples proffered below…"

Given that rape is a common theme in yaoi manga (or so I hear), I suppose you could argue that shoujo manga does sometimes glorify rape, but I'm pretty sure the how to guides concerning sex in shoujo manga do not include how to rape.

Also, I'm getting a bit tired of seeing Sankaku quoted as a new source, seeing as it's a tabloid site. It's coverage of the topic in this thread, for example, is atrocious, its essentially nothing but drumming up drama.

[Revenger1589]

Originally Posted by Simon

Greetings, Shinji-san. This is Ishihara Shintarō speaking, and I would like to respond to your understandable concerns that Bill 156 doesn't go far enough. You will be relieved to know that I have deliberately left it ambiguous so those perverted mangaka can't wriggle out on technicalities. In the case you highlight, the following are deemed to be "acts" for the purposes of the law:

• Showing pantsu, even involuntarily
• Jiggling
• Taking baths
• Wearing bloomers to P.E. class
• And anything else I think of later

Even if this wasn't the case, so-called "fanservice" pre-supposes an audience. The mere act of "serving" the audience glorifies and/or exaggerates the disgusting sexual nature of what is shown, so my new law will protect our precious youth from fanservice as well as other vices.

I trust this puts your mind at ease, and I humbly thank you for your support of my crusade to cleanse Japan of all moral impurities. Please continue to vote for me.

Oh Ishihara, I know you just want some friends ;_;

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Key Board

Unfortunately, Miyazaki isn't subtle about his opinions. He would support the bill. He wants all shows to be like Ghibli

It's no secret that he does NOT like the shows that this bill will restrict

This is ludicrous. Miyazaki may not be directly impacted by this ordinance but the notion that he would throw his colleagues under the bus is insulting and unlikely. He's an artist and a very, very smart man and he knows a big steaming like of shit when he sees it. He may or may not take a public position but there's no way he supports this nonsense. He's a pacifist, an environmentalist and an internationalist - all of which are anathema to Ishihara's xenophobic, racist ideology.

[Edgewalker]

Not much to say that hasn't been said, but there is one thing I would like to emphasize:

This will backfire.

You cannot legislate morality, especially when it involves sexual suppression. Suppressing sexuality only makes it worse ( See: teen pregnancy rates for Conservative Christians vs atheists ).

Ishihara's belief that this sort of bill will improve anything on the scale of morality and behavior of the Japanese youth is as grounded in reality as the belief that the moon is made of green cheese or that pink unicorns are magically flying above our homes this very moment.

Regardless of whether this seriously effects the anime industry or not, one thing that can be safely said about the bill is that the effects that Ishihara and his clowns are hoping for will never come to pass.

[Sister Princess]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

This is ludicrous. Miyazaki may not be directly impacted by this ordinance but the notion that he would throw his colleagues under the bus is insulting and unlikely. He's an artist and a very, very smart man and he knows a big steaming like of shit when he sees it. He may or may not take a public position but there's no way he supports this nonsense. He's a pacifist, an environmentalist and an internationalist - all of which are anathema to Ishihara's xenophobic, racist ideology.

Miyazaki probably thinks this is the best news he heard in 10 years.

Ghibli can just adapt and pretend nothing happened.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

This is ludicrous. Miyazaki may not be directly impacted by this ordinance but the notion that he would throw his colleagues under the bus is insulting and unlikely. He's an artist and a very, very smart man and he knows a big steaming like of shit when he sees it. He may or may not take a public position but there's no way he supports this nonsense. He's a pacifist, an environmentalist and an internationalist - all of which are anathema to Ishihara's xenophobic, racist ideology.

I don't know about that, bro.
As much as I respect Miyazaki as a genius in the field, equal to none, he has made some.... very.... controversial verbal attacks at anime industry, anime fans, and its (lack of) moral values.

He's made many jerkish public comments and rants at his colleagues. Many.

Like you, I would HOPE he's got senses in him to see this pile of manure as it is, but he comes across as an idiotic senile grumpy old man these days.
I can't put enough trust in him to do so anymore.

[flying ^]

so what time is the vote gonna start?

[Guardian Enzo]

Miyazaki is outspoken, but he's also an avowed political enemy of Ishihara. I also don't think an artist in his position is likely to be in favor of this kind of censorship, period. I wouldn't confuse "cranky and opinionated" with "stupid and a traitor to the notion of free speech."

[Revenger1589]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

This is ludicrous. Miyazaki may not be directly impacted by this ordinance but the notion that he would throw his colleagues under the bus is insulting and unlikely. He's an artist and a very, very smart man and he knows a big steaming like of shit when he sees it. He may or may not take a public position but there's no way he supports this nonsense. He's a pacifist, an environmentalist and an internationalist - all of which are anathema to Ishihara's xenophobic, racist ideology.

While Miyazaki probably disagrees with everything Ishihara represents, he has made it very clear that he hates the current anime industry and would be more than happy to see it die. I'm not excepting him to come out and fight this bill.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Revenger1589

While Miyazaki probably disagrees with everything Ishihara represents, he has made it very clear that he hates the current anime industry and would be more than happy to see it die. I'm not excepting him to come out and fight this bill.

I don't think he's going to take sides in this, either.

I'd be surprised, and disappointed, if he openly supports the bill, but I doubt he'll take any sort of serious action against it either.

For him, this is probably a case of one of his enemies fighting another one of his enemies. So there's no dog in this fight for him. Ghibli is one animation studio that even this bill should not impact much.