Guilty Crown - Episode 17 Discussion / Poll

[Gundamx]

He was biting off more than he could chew. Now, i don't remember the exact details of that episode very well and i don't want to go into it much because this isn't the right thread, but i thought he could have handled the situation better. He was hiding it out with Yahiro and called the undertakers over. Fair enough, but he could have waited till it was closer to the meeting time before going out so then at least undertaker people could have helped them when GHQ attacked. Or he could have bypassed calling the Undertakers at all, and just sneak out and get a vaccine for Yahiro's bro while telling them to hide. So, the "walking all over my 'friend' (debatable)" part was just Shu calling the Undertakers to show off his new hot stuff friends and how cool he was. IIRC, when he called, they even told him there was a procedure to go through before they could do something like that but of course he didn't listen...

I don't remember it too but:
1-Do you really believe that Yahiro's will wait for him?
2- They don't have a lot of time so that why they move and how he would know that the GHQ will ambush them?
3- Yahiro already know that he is part Funeral Parlor.
And he called not to show off but because they are the only one who can help him
(He always help them for free so why shouldn't they help him?)

In the end the fastest way is for them to get him to Funeral Parlor

Not necessarily, maybe she would have acted differently once Shu used Tsugumi's void to prove what would happen if they went out there. And you can't say who would be a better president because their circumstances were different. Arisa was pres before the Tsugumi void stunt, Shu after. And what would you suggest Arisa do instead of saying wait for help? Go outside, attack and acquire vaccines? What would Shu have done? Get up on stage and tell everyone about the voids and his power, and that he was with the undertakers and would help them? I don't think so.

-Arisa already proof to whole school that she is useless in danger situation.
(before only wait > after = no one will trust her incomplete)
-Shu already said that he is part of Funeral Parlor and they already know about his void and he did help them to get out.

I said this before, but if it wasn't Shu for President then it would be either Arisa or Yahiro, because there were no other characters who would take the role (asshole duo still unconscious here), unless the writers decided to introduce a new character. That obviously didn't happen, so i won't go into it.

-It already been said that Arisa = useless without her family backing her
Yahioro will be good BUT who will choose unknown person without power as leader? (We know that he is more than capable of doing it but the students don't know.

Don't to mention they will need someone strong to force rule unless we want another girl rape (e.g: To find girls errr people form Funeral Parlor).
Unless you mean to force to bad job again to Shu.

In the end Arisa is useless
Yahiro = unknown
while Shu already prove himself to them when he get on stage.

I don't understand what point you're trying to make here. What you said is right, but, again, saying yes or no to big plans is not Shu exclusive, just like distributing those vaccines wasn't. It didn't have to be Shu doing those things, anyone could have.

It's Shu exclusive. (He was the leader at that time.)
They have limited vaccines to save people, so it's a big choose that only leader can made.
(Look to USA, they need to save their economic, the president have people who tell him best way to do it and other who said that it's is bad to listen to them but in the end he decide to give a lot of money to save big banks/companies from bankruptcy.)

He was tricked into getting Souta and his groups' voids out remember? They said they wanted to practice to be more helpful.

Did you read what I write?
Here it again:

Originally Posted by Gundamx
At that time he was plan to save them all so that = was big no.
But than he learn reality by hard way and let F group get their own vaccines by their own hand

Hmm after reading it again i don't think I said it right.

Here it again:
Shu was not plan to sacrifice anyone even the useless F- group but than they prove by the hard way that they are useless so he should stop wasting resource on them and since they said that they can get their own vaccine than sure let them get their own.
(They are useless after all it's only the A~ group which fought GHQ head to head while F~-group was waiting away from the battlefield)

So its meaningless to stay unless you're the leader? Yes, a smaller group would be easier, but i think it was earlier established that no one really wanted to leave. And like i said earlier, just because he's not the leader doesn't mean he can't help. He has this awesome power; why wouldn't he? And he wouldn't be selfish to ignore their pleads to lead them, it would be selfish for them to plead for him to lead them. Repeatedly. If he had some good judgement (which we now know he doesn't), he wouldn't cave in to all these bullshit requests and and maybe just choose the ones that aren't stupid and actually have a real purpose and a good chance of success to follow through with.

So you are saying just because Shu have power he have to save them for nothing?
Real human =/= are not comic hero (The anime was trying to show human real nature right?)

And he did choose the best solution to get out which is to lead them since there was no one else to do it.
( Again, Arisa = useless // Yahiro = unknown while Shu already prove himself to them when he get on stage)

So if he didn't accept > Arisa will lead them > almost no student will follow her order.

By the way, what do you think will happen if he said no to all of them yet stay with them?
They will start to said that he is selfish and even though he have power he act indifferent to the situation they are in...etc
In the end you can't made everyone happy no mater what you do.
(After all we have the students who become totally angry because he hid the fact that void can kill you even thought GHQ can do better job at killing them.)

Yes, a smaller group would be easier, but i think it was earlier established that no one really wanted to leave

Huh? Last time I check they want to leave but they need more information before they can act and when they have them Shu already became the president.

[Aesthetic Shampoo]

Originally Posted by Gundamx

I don't remember it too but:
1-Do you really believe that Yahiro's will wait for him?
2- They don't have a lot of time so that why they move and how he would know that the GHQ will ambush them?
3- Yahiro already know that he is part Funeral Parlor.
And he called not to show off but because they are the only one who can help him
(He always help them for free so why shouldn't they help him?)

In the end the fastest way is for them to get him to Funeral Parlor

1) Yes, or else his bro would shatter as soon as he tried to move
2) A bit of lapse of judgement i say, wait until the party you're meeting is close before coming out. If he had done that, when GHQ attacked they would have had some support. And no of course they didn't no GHQ was going to attack, its just that the attack when it came would have been better handled if he had timed his move better.
3)Just because you're part of Undertaker doesn't mean you're pro. For all Yahiro knew, Shu could've just been the gofer.

Originally Posted by Gundamx

-Arisa already proof to whole school that she is useless in danger situation.
(before only wait > after = no one will trust her incomplete)
-Shu already said that he is part of Funeral Parlor and they already know about his void and he did help them to get out.

Doesn't matter here. This is a scenario where Shu rejects leadership, and Arisa/Yahiro are the only characters who can fill the spot. But you didn't answer my question (it was rhetorical but oh well...): what could Arisa have done instead of waiting to make the student body believe in her?

Originally Posted by Gundamx

-It already been said that Arisa = useless without her family backing her
Yahioro will be good BUT who will choose unknown person without power as leader? (We know that he is more than capable of doing it but the students don't know.

Don't to mention they will need someone strong to force rule unless we want another girl rape (e.g: To find girls errr people form Funeral Parlor).
Unless you mean to force to bad job again to Shu.

In the end Arisa is useless
Yahiro = unknown
while Shu already prove himself to them when he get on stage.

Seriously, doesn't matter. Shu isn't President because he said no. Who else is there if not Arisa or Yahiro. A new character wasn't introduced so i am not going there. The students wouldn't care if Arisa was useless,or if Yahiro is a complete unknown. They want Shu but they're not getting him. And they do not care who is the president and does the hard work of being responsible for them, as long as it's not them.

Originally Posted by Gundamx

It's Shu exclusive. (He was the leader at that time.)
They have limited vaccines to save people, so it's a big choose that only leader can made.
(Look to USA, they need to save their economic, the president have people who tell him best way to do it and other who said that it's is bad to listen to them but in the end he decide to give a lot of money to save big banks/companies from bankruptcy.)

Ugh. Distributing vaccines is not something only Shu can do, regardless of whether he was leader or not. Being leader is not something only Shu can do, regardless of whether he can draw out voids or not. And off topic, but even the damn void genome is not something specially made for Shu, regardless of whether he met Inori or not.

Originally Posted by Gundamx

Did you read what I write?
Here it again:

Hmm after reading it again i don't think I said it right.

Here it again:
Shu was not plan to sacrifice anyone even the useless F- group but than they prove by the hard way that they are useless so he should stop wasting resource on them and since they said that they can get their own vaccine than sure let them get their own.
(They are useless after all it's only the A~ group which fought GHQ head to head while F~-group was waiting away from the battlefield)

I still don't see what point you're trying to make here.

Originally Posted by Gundamx

So you are saying just because Shu have power he have to save them for nothing?
Real human =/= are not comic hero (The anime was trying to show human real nature right?)

And he did choose the best solution to get out which is to lead them since there was no one else to do it.
( Again, Arisa = useless // Yahiro = unknown while Shu already prove himself to them when he get on stage)

Yes, there was someone else to lead them if not Shu...Arisa and Yahiro. Read my previous posts if you want more elaboration.

Originally Posted by Gundamx

So if he didn't accept > Arisa will lead them > almost no student will follow her order.

They're cowards worse than Arisa who want something done but don't want to do it themselves. They'd follow anyone.

Originally Posted by Gundamx

By the way, what do you think will happen if he said no to all of them yet stay with them?
They will start to said that he is selfish and even though he have power he act indifferent to the situation they are in...etc
In the end you can't made everyone happy no mater what you do.
(After all we have the students who become totally angry because he hid the fact that void can kill you even thought GHQ can do better job at killing them.)

Again, just because he is not leading them doesn't mean he can't use his awesome power to help...

Originally Posted by Gundamx

Huh? Last time I check they want to leave but they need more information before they can act and when they have them Shu already became the president.

You're the one that said the Shu group would be opposed to leaving in the first place...but w/e. I don't remember them saying they wanted to leave. Why and where would they go? It was basically a danger zone outside of the school, and after the info came it was a red zone.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Gundamx

So you are saying just because Shu have power he have to save them for nothing?
Real human =/= are not comic hero (The anime was trying to show human real nature right?)

And he did choose the best solution to get out which is to lead them since there was no one else to do it.
( Again, Arisa = useless // Yahiro = unknown while Shu already prove himself to them when he get on stage)

So if he didn't accept > Arisa will lead them > almost no student will follow her order.

By the way, what do you think will happen if he said no to all of them yet stay with them?
They will start to said that he is selfish and even though he have power he act indifferent to the situation they are in...etc
In the end you can't made everyone happy no mater what you do.
(After all we have the students who become totally angry because he hid the fact that void can kill you even thought GHQ can do better job at killing them.)

Wait, what? You're not honestly saying Shu should/would jump ship if he wasn't their leader, are you? ...Are you?

I'm mostly on your side of the argument (in the sense that I've seen nothing whatsoever to suggest that Shu was in any way "jumping at the chance" to have power), but that makes no sense. It isn't about him being some hero, but about him being a decent human being (which, given that he made no effort to jump ship prior to then, I'm assuming he is); he could and would have helped around whether he was their leader or not. I don't see why he needed to have the fancy President title to do that.

Originally Posted by Sunnythesun

1) Yes, or else his bro would shatter as soon as he tried to move
2) A bit of lapse of judgement i say, wait until the party you're meeting is close before coming out. If he had done that, when GHQ attacked they would have had some support. And no of course they didn't no GHQ was going to attack, its just that the attack when it came would have been better handled if he had timed his move better.
3)Just because you're part of Undertaker doesn't mean you're pro. For all Yahiro knew, Shu could've just been the gofer.

Lapse of judgment or not is irrelevant, because they were at least somewhat lacking in judgment the moment they weren't 100% prepared for the possibility of GHQ trying to accost them at any time. But that has absolutely nothing to do with Shu's motives for helping, which was what the argument was about to begin with; I fail to see how his calling for help was an effort to look cool, or how he felt good about himself simply for lending a hand. If there's any evidence whatsoever to suggest either of these things, I certainly don't remember it.

Doesn't matter here. This is a scenario where Shu rejects leadership, and Arisa/Yahiro are the only characters who can fill the spot. But you didn't answer my question (it was rhetorical but oh well...): what could Arisa have done instead of waiting to make the student body believe in her?

The way Arisa's presidency was going? She couldn't do a whole lot. The core problem was that panic was settling in, and her way of doing things wasn't helping that a whole lot. What Shu offered to the table wasn't so much a good leader (and I'd be surprised if Yahiro got him elected assuming he'd be one), but rather security. He was the one with enough power to keep them alive, and he was staying calm when most other people were snapping at eachother's heels. Him being made President mellowed things out, and allowed them to move from there.

Could Arisa have done the same? Probably not on her own. But with the backing of Shu and Yahiro, I imagine she could have.

[Ikaros000]

Shu will just become a wimpy self again without his power :/

And killing Arisa wouldnt be enough to calm down my hatred towards her. MY GOD she needs a right slapping and not in the erotic way. Someone needs to send her through a mangler or milling machine. If my hatred could tke physical form she wouldnt be a honeycomb... she'd be completely gone

[hyl]

Arisa does have a reason to be angry at Shuu though, because she was almost assasinated by Inori and thought that Shuu ordered her to do it.

[andy]

Arisa could have ask Shu for help when the students were getting out of hand or come up with plan that had him in mind .
She not doing either just shows how stupid she was in the first place or how she had no idea what to do .

[hyl]

Originally Posted by andy

Arisa could have ask Shu for help when the students were getting out of hand or come up with plan that had him in mind .
She not doing either just shows how stupid she was in the first place or how she had no idea what to do .

It's pretty hard to trust Shuu after she was almost killed by him (or atleast Inori), unless you meant that Arisa should have done something in the previous episode.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by hyl

It's pretty hard to trust Shuu after she was almost killed by him (or atleast Inori), unless you meant that Arisa should have done something in the previous episode.

I think he was inferring that Arisa could have made better use of Shu's abilities while she was still President to get things done. Which wouldn't have been a bad idea, but with all the pressure she was under it's understandable that it didn't occur to her.

[andy]

Originally Posted by hyl

It's pretty hard to trust Shuu after she was almost killed by him (or atleast Inori), unless you meant that Arisa should have done something in the previous episode.

I am talking about before when she was still president .
Not only was she useless then but she also try to out Shu plan to save most of the students which they still end up using and work.
She is a all around useless character that i hope along with everyone else have a painful and slow death .

Originally Posted by Akashin

I think he was inferring that Arisa could have made better use of Shu's abilities while she was still President to get things done. Which wouldn't have been a bad idea, but with all the pressure she was under it's understandable that it didn't occur to her.

How hard could be to think hey i have a friend that has super powers that used them in front the whole school a short while ago to help me.

[hyl]

There was not much timespan between when she was still the president while the students wanting/demanding a new leader and when Shuu openly revealed his powers. By the time that Shuu showed off his powers in front of the other people, Arisa was pretty much replaced by Shuu democratically by the students.

So in short, I think that Arisa never could have taken advantage of Shuu's powers when she was the president.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by dark998

Upon a couple of rewatches this really was one of the best episodes so far, up there with 4, 6, 11, 12 and 15. Sure, things turned out badly for Shu at the last second but he will recover from that blow. Episode 18 is supposed to be another turning point (the final one?) so that will balance the scale between the sides in this conflict.

After cooling down, it was good. I think the Arisa thing just pissed me off too much. It was just so pointless and that bastard sure doesn't deserve anything of that sort. If they really wanted to throw the sex in, I would have rather it was with Neo Gai.

[Gundamx]

Wait, what? You're not honestly saying Shu should/would jump ship if he wasn't their leader, are you? ...Are you?

I'm mostly on your side of the argument (in the sense that I've seen nothing whatsoever to suggest that Shu was in any way "jumping at the chance" to have power), but that makes no sense. It isn't about him being some hero, but about him being a decent human being (which, given that he made no effort to jump ship prior to then, I'm assuming he is); he could and would have helped around whether he was their leader or not. I don't see why he needed to have the fancy President title to do that.

I mean if he was human who will ignore other people pleads to lead them as if they are
nothing than why would he not be human who will totally ignored them troubled and leave
out alone/in small group?
(Of course he didn't because he was decent human and decide to lead them
not because he was power hungry but because he want to help them don't to mention that
he was the only one who can lead them.)

[syke123]

He became the leader of the pack due to his idol, Gai. He thought he was living the good life being the leader for so long, commanding everyone's respect, and making all the decisions. He wanted to feel that same sensation, but he forced the position on himself when Hare died.

The thing is though, the way he managed the school, and everyone's way of life wasn't wrong. It was cruel but it was just. He managed to create a way to keep everyone in line, and shun those that disobey. If left the way things were, the school would've lasted a few more weeks tops. The borders were closing in, the lack of vaccines, nobody knows what to do, and the intimidating threats from GHQ. He took charge, created a dictatorship, and ruled with fear of disobedience. A dictatorship was the answer, the only alternative was breaking through the wall, but that required planning and effort, so regardless it was necessary.

Down at the docks when Satou would've died, he let his emotions get in the way, and would've probably jumped in himself to save him if he were someone else. Yahiro obviously wouldn't of let him, but I won't forget that he tried to save that girls life in episode 16, though she died because of her void. I still think he's himself, but after what just happened, if he survives, he's headed down a dark and twisted path. I bet he'll lose all trust in everyone except Inori, which leaves him open to being converted to Mana's side. I kind of have the feeling that she'll take advantage of the situation and try to confront him, after all she obviously wouldn't pick Gai over Shu, even if he has the void genome.

I'm skeptical as I don't know whether this conspiracy theory is going to go all the way yet.

[djmaca]

@DragoZERO

I think Arisa would have still rebelled against Shu without Gai just because she's butthurt Shu is now alpha and is scared shit about Manori.

Burying that whore alive isn't going to satisfy me....

[Toto y Moi]

Didn't anyone else think that Shu's conversation with Inori in that garden was really strange? There's an unsettling mood underlying it. And when Yahiro came down to speak to Shu, that's sort of when I realized that there's no redeeming him...Shu hasn't learned a thing since this series started. His ideology is the exact same. He's just as selfish and his will is just as weak. I think the creators probably realize this and the rest of the series will follow suit.

Everyone is becoming all kinds of messed up. Poor Arisa.

[dark998]

^ Yahiro is nothing more than a cunning liar that brought upon himself Shu's distrust towards him. Even if he is honest now the secret he kept caused the death of another person, while Inori only stabbed Arisa in the hand. If he got away unpunished Inori can too. Besides:

"I won't let anyone hurt, you"
"Shu, I found out who attacked Arisa, it was Inori"
"Ok Yahiro, take her away"
"Sorry Inori, I couldn't keep that promise"

The old Shu would have said that.

[DevilHighDxD]

All of this happened because of a death of a single girl...sigh...... (at least Lulu isn't like this when he kill Euphemia, if you want to compare CG to GC)

As for the new arm, it has a possibility of being Shu's Void. A special void that allow Shu to take out the void of other without the power of the king and it may as well enhance the power or ability(make it XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX more powerful than original).If there a void like a leg than there a good chance of a void that is like a arm.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by djmaca

@DragoZERO

I think Arisa would have still rebelled against Shu without Gai just because she's butthurt Shu is now alpha and is scared shit about Manori.

Burying that whore alive isn't going to satisfy me....

I'm sure she would have rebelled, but whoring herself like that was just bleh. I would have expected her to at the most offer it as a reward and then deny the guy with a knife at his throat.

But I'm truly torn because I now have negative feelings towards an Endou Aya character.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by djmaca

@DragoZERO

I think Arisa would have still rebelled against Shu without Gai just because she's butthurt Shu is now alpha and is scared shit about Manori.

Burying that whore alive isn't going to satisfy me....

Where's the idea that she was butthurt over losing her presidency to Shu coming from? She not only accepted it (and applauded Shu along with everybody else when it happened), but continued to assist him without incident for some time after. She had quite a few issues with Shu coming into this episode, but losing her presidency definitely wasn't one of them.

As for whether or not she'd rebel without Gai, I'm not so sure. Up until she got that call (presumably Gai, unless I'm forgetting something), she didn't really have the nerve to do much of anything. The way I saw it, she only had the courage to go against Shu and Inori after getting Gai's backing. Again, unless I'm forgetting something.

[Crontica]

Shuu could have contacted the headmaster for actual backup instead of using the students as he so kindly put it "glorified scapegoats".

One things for sure though Shuu does not know how to play an RPG, premeditated traps and sufficent void snipers before hand would have prevented most of the causalities seen in this episode.