(L+CR) Black Clover (TV series)

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by orion

It worked for Griffith and Guts; and Naruto and Sasuke. It'll prob work for Astra and Yuno. I mention Griffith and Guts due to Yuno being perfect with the mysterious necklace and Astra inheriting a dark grimoire (demon) and sounding like an immature/beserker-type character.




Well...the OVA fight was left to the 2nd episode. So the awesomeness of Astra fighting won't be revealed until next week.

The problem is that I've heard people touting this as "new", as I said often the same people that say Shounen has tons more originality in their protagonists than Harem. This is just about as original as a joke about a chicken crossing a road, and the boy so far has just as much "personality". So far at least. Yes, I expect awesome battles, maybe awesome enough to ignore the repetition of the story we've heard so many times in one form or another. But unless something incredible happens, even if I grow to like it, I won't be able to say that it's anything but another cheap ripoff of the same cheap story, complete with the same cheap audience avatar, only this time just a little bit louder and more obnoxious. Seriously it's like Naruto and Natsu somehow had a baby, and it inherited all the most annoying parts of each of them.

[FlareKnight]

This may be a time when manga is definitely superior to anime. Manga can't make your ears hurt....

If Asta could tone it down a bit he might be tolerable. Plus even things like his confession felt more like those annoying phone calls trying to make you buy or donate to something. No matter what you do they keep trying and trying to get that money.

There's potential to the show. Should be good for some action and such. Can't really say much about Yuno since he is such a quiet person in general.

[serenade_beta]

Forget episode 1 thoughts, OMG! The protagonist's voice is so bad. Is this guy a reincarnation of a rattlesnake or something? Why does his throat... what do you call this, that rrrrrrrr that enters every single line he speaks when he raises his voice? Just... stop. Geez...

[Psyco Diver]

The MC is incredibly annoying, beyond his VA, this personality is annoying. Otherwise looks predictable in a really bad way (predictability isn't bad if it has good characters or a good twist on the story). I'll check the 2nd episode out but I have my doubts

[DMurphy]

This is ...

Okay, there is actually fairly decent variety in shounen protagonists and shounen storylines. Your Ichigos, Dekus, Rins, Luffys, Ed Elrics, and Gokus are all distinct from each other -- it's not like the accursed LN/Harem genre where the lead characters are strategically generic and milquetoast.

That having been said, this show, in its first episode at least, is really, really trying hard to be the ur-Shounen, the shounen anime that encapsulates every single genre cliche.

It's this odd situation where, actually, I don't think any of us have seen a protagonist like Asta before, but it sure as hell feels like we've seen him a thousand times, because he is a hodgepodge of the most irritating traits from a dozen other protags.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by DMurphy

This is ...

Okay, there is actually fairly decent variety in shounen protagonists and shounen storylines. Your Ichigos, Dekus, Rins, Luffys, Ed Elrics, and Gokus are all distinct from each other -- it's not like the accursed LN/Harem genre where the lead characters are strategically generic and milquetoast.

That having been said, this show, in its first episode at least, is really, really trying hard to be the ur-Shounen, the shounen anime that encapsulates every single genre cliche.

It's this odd situation where, actually, I don't think any of us have seen a protagonist like Asta before, but it sure as hell feels like we've seen him a thousand times, because he is a hodgepodge of the most irritating traits from a dozen other protags.

OK, as I said earlier, I would have to disagree quite a bit on this. Harem series protagonists have more variation and personality than people want to believe, and much more to the point, Shounen heroes tend to have far less than fans claim. It's just that Shounen heroes are loud and flamboyant and they make sure to shove their unique aspects down your throat with their "passion", while harem heroes tend in general to be gentler and quieter, thus making it harder to pull out their unique traits. That and, both circumstance and the hotheaded extremity makes it easier to show in action the quirks and tweaks that pass for "personality". It gives enough flair to convince the audience that everyone's a unique character while still leaving them very easy audience inserts. But even among them, this guy is at the moment extremely generic. Nothing but your most typical loud guy who wants to believe he's the most special person in the world but realizes that everything up to this point has told him that he's really more likely to be the most unimpressive in his section of the world.

And I'd have to differ. I think we don't just "feel like we've seen him". He's a loud, obnoxious guy who won't give up despite not being able to do jack; he's showing a few moments of "quiet" where he demonstrates that he's starting to crumble over the realization that he's only "special" in how mediocre he is; and it turns out that his weakness is the result of either a sealed power or a unique power that once harnessed will make him every bit as special as he knows he is. This is generic of Shounen anime/manga, one of maybe three or four characters that make up practically all the protagonists in these series. It's also nothing but a bit of volume and gloss added over something that doesn't have that much substance or originality. Ultimately, it's just another wish-fulfillment avatar to embody every young man audience member who's struggling to deal with his own doubts about whether he can be as awesome as he wants to be.

Part of why I call this wish-fulfillment is because really, there's no TRUE effort here, any more than there is in harem series that get disparaged so often. Naruto. Bleach. Academia. DB/Z. Shounen heroes hardly ever in my experience actually work to obtain their powers. They may have to "prove" themselves by showing that they'll put their life on the line, but still the power itself is handed to them, and the rest is about them learning to handle this immense godlike power hidden inside them. It's almost never a Rock Lee type story where you work and work and work and work until finally you MAKE this great power, make yourself into something special in defiance of all the naysayers. No, all of that work is to control the power that exists inside you or be able to take a power into you that will turn you from a kinda strong normal into a superman. Frankly, even the annoying and not-as-unique-as-we-think Shounen characters would be more interesting if they really were forced to accept that there's absolutely nothing about them that makes them even remotely special and then force them to make something out of nothing, again like Lee. But no, whether this guy's got some immense force sealed inside him or some special power too unique to measure with simple magic definitions, it's fairly clear from the end of just this episode that he's just another of those guys who were always supermen and just needed to learn to bring it out.

[Grand-Chariot-Wave]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

he's showing a few moments of "quiet" where he demonstrates that he's starting to crumble over the realization that he's only "special" in how mediocre he is; and it turns out that his weakness is the result of either a sealed power or a unique power that once harnessed will make him every bit as special as he knows he is.

Part of why I call this wish-fulfillment is because really, there's no TRUE effort here, any more than there is in harem series that get disparaged so often. Naruto. Bleach. Academia. DB/Z. Shounen heroes hardly ever in my experience actually work to obtain their powers. They may have to "prove" themselves by showing that they'll put their life on the line, but still the power itself is handed to them, and the rest is about them learning to handle this immense godlike power hidden inside them. It's almost never a Rock Lee type story where you work and work and work and work until finally you MAKE this great power, make yourself into something special in defiance of all the naysayers. No, all of that work is to control the power that exists inside you or be able to take a power into you that will turn you from a kinda strong normal into a superman.

If only I could properly respond to this, it's just eating me alive.

[AntonKutovoi]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Part of why I call this wish-fulfillment is because really, there's no TRUE effort here, any more than there is in harem series that get disparaged so often. Naruto. Bleach. Academia. DB/Z. Shounen heroes hardly ever in my experience actually work to obtain their powers. They may have to "prove" themselves by showing that they'll put their life on the line, but still the power itself is handed to them, and the rest is about them learning to handle this immense godlike power hidden inside them.

OK, I won't mention the fact that most of these characters trained relly hard both before and after they got the power, but the fact that you say that Goku didn't work to obtain his powers is just downright crazy.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by AntonKutovoi

OK, I won't mention the fact that most of these characters trained relly hard both before and after they got the power, but the fact that you say that Goku didn't work to obtain his powers is just downright crazy.

My point is that their training is always to learn to control what they already have or unlock their natural, innate ability. Deku trained, yes, until he was a buff but still normal and therefore inferior person, but his great power was still handed to him; his training was to be able to withstand it and afterward to control it. Naruto's had a beast of mass destruction in his gut from birth, and the majority of his training has been to either utilize his own unique genius (like when he learns a top-level technique overnight) or to properly control that innate well of awesome inside; it was even revealed that a big part of why he'd always been behind was because he'd had a messy seal planted on him that seals the Nine-Tails' power but also interrupts his own energy flow, and once that seal is removed his abilities improve in an instant. Ichigo was born from a reaper and a quincy, and I believe there was some sort of hollow aspect involved as well, resulting in him naturally having all sorts of powers hidden inside waiting for the right trigger. Even at the start he is said to have always been strong and the powers he develops are implied to have always been there, just waiting for him to find them and be able to reach and withstand them. Goku's really no different. Yes, he trains like crazy. But most of his big stuff doesn't come from the training. All that effort is nothing but prep so that he'll be able to access what's always been there and handle it. Train and train and train and still get beaten to a pulp, then in a fit of rage break an inner wall to obtain a trick that raises your power by an order of magnitude. Frankly, I will admit he's the closest to actual effort but even with him it's rather unsatisfying. It's all wish fulfillment, that somehow there's a magic that can take you far beyond anything training can provide, and that because of this you can be better than anyone else.

Ultimately it was Naruto that made me see this in Shounen works. They kept going on and on about "dropouts" and innate genius and how some people are just born weak and inferior, while Naruto kept going on and on fighting against that, acting like the representative of the "losers" and proof that a loser can become a winner, but really he was a vessel to unlimited power from birth with incredible innate potential. His awesomeness comes out largely from him either breaking down and getting overcome by the fox or eventually managing to tame the beast and force it to give the power to him. He's training to "find" or "unlock" or "be able to handle" this power, not to develop or master it. There are tricks he learns, obviously, but that overwhelming power is still a step removed from himself and his effort, as is the case with the vast majority of famous Shounen heroes, and as is the case of this obnoxious jerk. It all remains a way to say not that you are and always have been The One, capable of things that others can only dream of.

[Grand-Chariot-Wave]

Well in Asta's case, you're very wrong and that's all I can say.

[AntonKutovoi]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Goku's really no different. Yes, he trains like crazy. But most of his big stuff doesn't come from the training.

Mst of the Goku's staff IS from training, though. All of his normal DB techinques aren't exclusive to him alone. And even after it was revealed that he is Saiyan, it's not that he is some sort of special ultra-rare saiyan. He is anormal representative of his own race and his strenght is a direct result of training.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by AntonKutovoi

Mst of the Goku's staff IS from training, though. All of his normal DB techinques aren't exclusive to him alone. And even after it wasdrevealed that he is Saiyan, it's not that he is some sort of special ultra-rare saiyan. He is anormal representative of his own race and his strenght is a direct result of training.

My point isn't techniques, it's POWERS. You could argue for any character that their techniques came from training, but again, the immense power is something innate to a "race" that has a population you can count on one hand. And no he's not "normal". It's If he was legitimately "normal" then Vegeta wouldn't be training his butt off to achieve his levels only to find out he'd achieved newer and higher levels. And even when he does obtain the same power, we're still talking about two, occasionally three, people capable of a power that is derived from their identity. As I said, Goku's a lot closer to legitimate hard work than the other series, but it's still a little weak and his character is just about as basic as they come. Once again, setting aside Kenichi and maybe Goku (in some parts of DB/Z at least), Shounen action is filled with stories where the hero just IS that powerful or just BECOMES that powerful, and rather than him having to work his butt off to develop that power he's instead working to be able to control that hidden dragon. Constant wish fulfillment that I may look weak but that's just because my superpowers haven't awakened yet.

And in any case, I still stand by my other statement that the vast majority of this genre that people say is full of "varied" and "unique" heroes is made up of perhaps a handful of heroes, all just as basic as the heroes of the Harem genre people disparage so much. And at least this introduction puts Asta firmly in with Naruto and various others. Weak little boy who has no power and can't stop raging and causing trouble, acting out and making a jerk of himself with a few moments here and there to show that he's really depressed and just wants to be someone. And then when training's allowed him to be everything EXCEPT strong the way he wants, and all hope seems to be lost, suddenly a powerful and terrible force awakens within him, or a skill that's so different and unique that power standards are useless. From what I've heard, he'll be the latter, but the way it's portrayed suggests that, like I've seen happen before, it may be the latter BECAUSE of the former, like maybe demonic power has a unique effect.

My point is not to disparage this series or the Shounen genre. Taken as a whole the series mentioned were very original and incredibly entertaining. I'm just tired of people going on about how "generic" Harem protagonists are and how "unique" Shounen heroes are. Both have personality as well as a tendency toward the generic in some areas, and both are really audience inserts. Harem just looks more obvious, at least to a Western audience, due to the gentle, quiet nature that doesn't go well with some people's concept of a "hero" even when the "hero" is mainly just associating with other people, as well as the fact that the scale of the plot differs drastically. Harem tends to be a relatively narrow plot; even if the plot occasionally does involve major crises the focus is on interpersonal interactions and the small things, whereas Shounen action tends to be more about the big stuff, the battles to the death and the evil people who keep trying to destroy or enslave the world. Both tend to have some of the other, but in Harem it seems like the action is largely a method to support and fuel the relationships, with more concern for the personal than the huge, while in heavy-action series it's more prone to interpersonal relations being a support for the action, developing investment in individuals and forging teams that can perform together.

And yes, there are plenty of series that break or at least bend the mold. No genre is anywhere near devoid of great stories or by-the-numbers stories, great heroes or generic heroes with no real personality, powers/goals that come as a result of hard work or ones that come as a reward afterward, or even as just something the character has/deserves. I'm just tired of people raising one genre above another and saying that genre A is full of variety and depth and personality and all sorts of other stuff and genre B is all the same and shallow and lacking in all sorts of areas. There's good and bad in every last one, and it's insulting to lump everything together.

[Dark Wing]

Well I see plenty of potential here and I won't make the same mistake I did when I skipped out on most of Hero Academia before it even got off the ground.

[orion]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

My point isn't techniques, it's POWERS. You could argue for any character that their techniques came from training, but again, the immense power is something innate to a "race" that has a population you can count on one hand. And no he's not "normal". It's If he was legitimately "normal" then Vegeta wouldn't be training his butt off to achieve his levels only to find out he'd achieved newer and higher levels. And even when he does obtain the same power, we're still talking about two, occasionally three, people capable of a power that is derived from their identity. As I said, Goku's a lot closer to legitimate hard work than the other series, but it's still a little weak and his character is just about as basic as they come. Once again, setting aside Kenichi and maybe Goku (in some parts of DB/Z at least), Shounen action is filled with stories where the hero just IS that powerful or just BECOMES that powerful, and rather than him having to work his butt off to develop that power he's instead working to be able to control that hidden dragon. Constant wish fulfillment that I may look weak but that's just because my superpowers haven't awakened yet.

And in any case, I still stand by my other statement that the vast majority of this genre that people say is full of "varied" and "unique" heroes is made up of perhaps a handful of heroes, all just as basic as the heroes of the Harem genre people disparage so much. And at least this introduction puts Asta firmly in with Naruto and various others. Weak little boy who has no power and can't stop raging and causing trouble, acting out and making a jerk of himself with a few moments here and there to show that he's really depressed and just wants to be someone. And then when training's allowed him to be everything EXCEPT strong the way he wants, and all hope seems to be lost, suddenly a powerful and terrible force awakens within him, or a skill that's so different and unique that power standards are useless. From what I've heard, he'll be the latter, but the way it's portrayed suggests that, like I've seen happen before, it may be the latter BECAUSE of the former, like maybe demonic power has a unique effect.

My point is not to disparage this series or the Shounen genre. Taken as a whole the series mentioned were very original and incredibly entertaining. I'm just tired of people going on about how "generic" Harem protagonists are and how "unique" Shounen heroes are. Both have personality as well as a tendency toward the generic in some areas, and both are really audience inserts. Harem just looks more obvious, at least to a Western audience, due to the gentle, quiet nature that doesn't go well with some people's concept of a "hero" even when the "hero" is mainly just associating with other people, as well as the fact that the scale of the plot differs drastically. Harem tends to be a relatively narrow plot; even if the plot occasionally does involve major crises the focus is on interpersonal interactions and the small things, whereas Shounen action tends to be more about the big stuff, the battles to the death and the evil people who keep trying to destroy or enslave the world. Both tend to have some of the other, but in Harem it seems like the action is largely a method to support and fuel the relationships, with more concern for the personal than the huge, while in heavy-action series it's more prone to interpersonal relations being a support for the action, developing investment in individuals and forging teams that can perform together.

And yes, there are plenty of series that break or at least bend the mold. No genre is anywhere near devoid of great stories or by-the-numbers stories, great heroes or generic heroes with no real personality, powers/goals that come as a result of hard work or ones that come as a reward afterward, or even as just something the character has/deserves. I'm just tired of people raising one genre above another and saying that genre A is full of variety and depth and personality and all sorts of other stuff and genre B is all the same and shallow and lacking in all sorts of areas. There's good and bad in every last one, and it's insulting to lump everything together.

But Asta doesn't have any powers, not one ounce magical power exists in him. He's the mortal person in the kingdom of supermen who has to work his butt off to get anything. He's like Deku from My Hero Academia.

[Grand-Chariot-Wave]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

And at least this introduction puts Asta firmly in with Naruto and various others. Weak little boy who has no power and can't stop raging and causing trouble, acting out and making a jerk of himself with a few moments here and there to show that he's really depressed and just wants to be someone. And then when training's allowed him to be everything EXCEPT strong the way he wants, and all hope seems to be lost, suddenly a powerful and terrible force awakens within him, or a skill that's so different and unique that power standards are useless. From what I've heard, he'll be the latter, but the way it's portrayed suggests that, like I've seen happen before, it may be the latter BECAUSE of the former, like maybe demonic power has a unique effect.

Again, this is incorrect since Asta literally has no power.

[Kafriel]

And yes, there are plenty of series that break or at least bend the mold. No genre is anywhere near devoid of great stories or by-the-numbers stories, great heroes or generic heroes with no real personality, powers/goals that come as a result of hard work or ones that come as a reward afterward, or even as just something the character has/deserves. I'm just tired of people raising one genre above another and saying that genre A is full of variety and depth and personality and all sorts of other stuff and genre B is all the same and shallow and lacking in all sorts of areas. There's good and bad in every last one, and it's insulting to lump everything together.

I'll only quote this segment to say: don't lump Black Clover together with Naruto and the like (it really is totally different). While there are prime examples of what it is, they are not that many and Black Clover uses its main themes very well, so I'd encourage you to give it a chance.

That being said, ep.1: dammit all to hell, why does Asta have to yell EVERYTHING!? His VA is not bad, but that was way too much yelling for no good reason. Hopefully this won't keep up after ep.3, except in a few cases. The animation's pretty good, the score is nice, so let's wait and see what comes out of this...

[dniv]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

I'll only quote this segment to say: don't lump Black Clover together with Naruto and the like (it really is totally different). While there are prime examples of what it is, they are not that many and Black Clover uses its main themes very well, so I'd encourage you to give it a chance.

That being said, ep.1: dammit all to hell, why does Asta have to yell EVERYTHING!? His VA is not bad, but that was way too much yelling for no good reason. Hopefully this won't keep up after ep.3, except in a few cases. The animation's pretty good, the score is nice, so let's wait and see what comes out of this...

Lol I'm totally on the same page as you about everything you said in your message. This is no normal shounen and that was no normal yelling.

[dgaaz]

Asta's VA made me insta-drop this series

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by orion

But Asta doesn't have any powers, not one ounce magical power exists in him. He's the mortal person in the kingdom of supermen who has to work his butt off to get anything. He's like Deku from My Hero Academia.

Yes, he's like Deku, or Naruto, or a number of other characters who have either no powers or nothing worth calling real power, until the end of one or two episodes. Did you not see the end of the episode, where a grimoire suddenly materialized before him, with narration indicating that the clover on the front indicates something demonic? As I said before, I'm only speaking about what was shown in the first ep, and that bit suggests that there's something lying hidden within him, an inherent part of him, that makes him incredible once it gets out. Even if instead the grimoire didn't come to him on account of him inherently having something, that would just mean that he's more Deku than Naruto: given power in recognition of his futile efforts rather than having power naturally inside him waiting for him to be able to handle it. And even if this power turns out to be something unusual that doesn't qualify as "power" by the standards of the world, that doesn't mean it's not legitimately a "power". Kamijo Touma is incredibly powerful, even though his power is not something that any measurement really defines as "power".

And I'll say once more. Since I only have the first episode to go on, haven't read the manga and have only heard a small amount about what Asta's POWER might be, I am only expressing the impression given by that material, as well as my opinion that's developed over years of various shows that the people who talk of one genre's heroes being deeper, more full of personality, or less of a stand-in for the audience than any other genre simply doesn't know what he/she is talking about. As I said before, I will watch at least a few more episodes. I've seen anime where the first episode was too pathetic for words but by ep 3 I liked them; I've also seen anime where the first ep made me feel like I'd found a real gem but after another couple eps I started to feel that was all I was going to get. Things could change for the better, but for the moment the appearance is just a lump of overused Shounen action clichés. Please don't call me Jon Snow just because I haven't seen past the current point, especially if we're talking in a forum that forbids talking about what will happen past this point.

[LevelSeven]

he's showing a few moments of "quiet" where he demonstrates that he's starting to crumble over the realization that he's only "special" in how mediocre he is

actually did nobody get the idea tha the reason he acts like that is because he is aware of his low-lvl-ness?

the screaming almost seems like he tries to push away the fact that he cant do it... the moment with the chain-villian was making this clearer to me tbh, once even the fact that he lacks mana was known he got quiet and lost his will immediately, only yunos words brought the light into his eyes, and his screaming changed too iirc...

but that is only my impression

It's almost never a Rock Lee type story where you work and work and work and work until finally you MAKE this great power, make yourself into something special in defiance of all the naysayers. No, all of that work is to control the power that exists inside you or be able to take a power into you that will turn you from a kinda strong normal into a superman.

watch/read World Trigger, it has exactly the MC you want

again like Lee.

Osamu from World Trigger

But no, whether this guy's got some immense force sealed inside him or some special power too unique to measure with simple magic definitions, it's fairly clear from the end of just this episode that he's just another of those guys who were always supermen and just needed to learn to bring it out.

i wont spoil but its not really like that, i doubt S1 will come to that point