[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by Ssol

I don't think it's extreme lengths. The first twilight was setup for the purpose of having the deception revealed. The confernece scene was false to a certain extent.

Oh yeah, regarding the knock, how about this:
The knock actually came from the front door of the mansion. They all heard a knock right? Where was it ever stated that the knock they heard probably came from the door right outside the conference room? This allows anyone outside of the mansion to have knocked! No red text are violated!

Spoiler for Red Text:

People there will not misidentify the knocking sound. They will not misidentify the sound of the knock with any sound that may be similar. This includes beating a pillar. Even if it is recorded, that is the "sound of the recording" and not the knock itself. Thus recordings are out. In other words, they will identify it as a knock if it really is the door being knocked on. They hear it absolutely and do not mistake it. Any thing that can be misunderstood as a knock on the door except actually knocking it does not exist.

This isn't Witch Hunt's translation so there could be a variation. It would suggest that the knock can and will only come from that door.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Spoiler for Red Text:

People there will not misidentify the knocking sound. They will not misidentify the sound of the knock with any sound that may be similar. This includes beating a pillar. Even if it is recorded, that is the "sound of the recording" and not the knock itself. Thus recordings are out. In other words, they will identify it as a knock if it really is the door being knocked on. They hear it absolutely and do not mistake it. Any thing that can be misunderstood as a knock on the door except actually knocking it does not exist.

This isn't Witch Hunt's translation so there could be a variation. It would suggest that the knock can and will only come from that door.

Look closer at that red text, it's not violated at all. The door was knocked on. The door was the front door to the mansion.
I don't think there's any other possibility. The theory of Erika changing the clock is too extreme and I haven't heard anything better.

As for the envelope, that could have been left at any time. They just didn't notice it.

[Renall]

If Hideyoshi dies, we're left with a seemingly impossible closed room. Natsuhi, Hideyoshi, and someone else were in the room (if this is the case), and once the chain is set, both Natsuhi and the killer could not leave. It's implied by the text that they check pretty much everywhere in the room except the closet where Natsuhi is. So if there's really an attacker, why didn't they find him? And if Hideyoshi was really dead, why ignore one of the single most obvious hiding places for the culprit? Erika is even physically led off so she can't check the closet.

This would suggest nobody wanted the closet checked because they already knew Natsuhi was in there. If there was never anyone else in the room, it would entirely explain why they didn't bother checking thoroughly; they didn't have to and didn't want to.

Also: The culprit can work within a larger scheme, without actually being the sole perpetrator of it. For instance, if there's an elaborate fake-death plot to coax the truth out of Krauss and Natsuhi, the culprit can pretend to be part of that plan, then perform actual killings. This seems very plausible for ep5. It seems like the plan is to frame Natsuhi. If they were aware of actual, real killings, they wouldn't go to the trouble of framing her (i.e. they'd look in the closet rather than pretend not to). But that doesn't mean at least one person involved actually isn't killing. They may just be betraying the plan.

[MeoTwister5]

This includes beating a pillar I believe was meant to indicate that it cannot be beating something other than a door, and not specifically a pillar alone. Plus the entire conversation was specifically about the door to the conference room itself. Of course there are still discrepancies, but if anything the entire conversation itself seems to try and condense the knocking to the conference room door and that alone.

Likewise, the mansion is huge and it is raining hard. A knocking sound on the front door and not on the conference room door would require a strong knock to be heard, and such a knock would be heard through much of the house.

Knox rules (I forget which one) dictates I believe that the detective is obligated to produce and explain her methods, which means that if Erika did not mention her manipulation of the clock then it would not have happened.

If Hideyoshi dies, we're left with a seemingly impossible closed room. Natsuhi, Hideyoshi, and someone else were in the room (if this is the case), and once the chain is set, both Natsuhi and the killer could not leave. It's implied by the text that they check pretty much everywhere in the room except the closet where Natsuhi is. So if there's really an attacker, why didn't they find him? And if Hideyoshi was really dead, why ignore one of the single most obvious hiding places for the culprit? Erika is even physically led off so she can't check the closet.

This would suggest nobody wanted the closet checked because they already knew Natsuhi was in there. If there was never anyone else in the room, it would entirely explain why they didn't bother checking thoroughly; they didn't have to and didn't want to.

Also: The culprit can work within a larger scheme, without actually being the sole perpetrator of it. For instance, if there's an elaborate fake-death plot to coax the truth out of Krauss and Natsuhi, the culprit can pretend to be part of that plan, then perform actual killings. This seems very plausible for ep5. It seems like the plan is to frame Natsuhi. If they were aware of actual, real killings, they wouldn't go to the trouble of framing her (i.e. they'd look in the closet rather than pretend not to). But that doesn't mean at least one person involved actually isn't killing. They may just be betraying the plan.

Are you suggesting that everyone knew Natsuhi was in the closet, and likely ignored it as a pretense to accuse her of murder because they are in on the entire scheme?

Edit - I think we're doing this in the wrong thread. Shouldn't we be doing this in the Ep5 thread?

[Renall]

Why would Erika manipulate the clock? That would work against her attempts to figure out how the knock happened. Someone else manipulating the clock is plausible, if they had some purpose in mind besides dodging the red (which is not allowed).

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

This includes beating a pillar I believe was meant to indicate that it cannot be beating something other than a door, and not specifically a pillar alone.

Right, it had to be a door. Which door?

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Plus the entire conversation was specifically about the door to the conference room itself.

Challenge: Was it ever stated specifically the door to the conference room?

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Of course there are still discrepancies, but if anything the entire conversation itself seems to try and condense the knocking to the conference room door and that alone.
Likewise, the mansion is huge and it is raining hard. A knocking sound on the front door and not on the conference room door would require a strong knock to be heard, and such a knock would be heard through much of the house.

The knock had to come from outside.
In short, this means it was impossible for any character within the mansion to be the source of a knocking SOUND. ....And 'any character' refers even to undiscovered people that no one has noticed.

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Knox rules (I forget which one) dictates I believe that the detective is obligated to produce and explain her methods, which means that if Erika did not mention her manipulation of the clock then it would not have happened.

But why would Erika do this?

[Crontica]

Originally Posted by Renall

Why would Erika manipulate the clock? That would work against her attempts to figure out how the knock happened. Someone else manipulating the clock is plausible, if they had some purpose in mind besides dodging the red (which is not allowed).

But we have seen disturbing proof ep 26 that you can dodge the red if you have perfect timing / stating half truths with the intention of misleading the game on.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Spoiler for Red Text:

People there will not misidentify the knocking sound. They will not misidentify the sound of the knock with any sound that may be similar. This includes beating a pillar. Even if it is recorded, that is the "sound of the recording" and not the knock itself. Thus recordings are out. In other words, they will identify it as a knock if it really is the door being knocked on. They hear it absolutely and do not mistake it. Any thing that can be misunderstood as a knock on the door except actually knocking it does not exist.

This isn't Witch Hunt's translation so there could be a variation.

Spoiler for Witch Hunt Translation of some of "The Knock" red text:

None of the characters misidentified a knocking sound.

Misidentifying a knocking sound means this: they would not mistake a sound very similar to a knocking sound for a real knocking sound. Hitting a pillar to make something similar to a knocking sound is no good. When you record a knocking sound on a cassette tape and play it back, it becomes 'the sound of the tape with a knocking sound on it', and not a knocking sound. So that's no good either!

In other words, all of them would correctly distinguish a knocking sound of something truly hitting the door, and they definitely wouldn't mishear it. It's totally impossible that and sounds except hitting that door directly would be misinterpreted as a knock!!

Originally Posted by Crontica

But we have seen disturbing proof ep 26 that you can dodge the red if you have perfect timing / stating half truths with the intention of misleading the game on.

Except for the one regarding Nanjo's death, I don't think any of the other blue truth Battler used in anime ep 26 to dodge the red were effective at all. Beatrice probably could have countered all of them with red truth.

[imaginari]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Spoiler for Witch Hunt Translation of some of "The Knock" red text:

None of the characters misidentified a knocking sound.

Misidentifying a knocking sound means this: they would not mistake a sound very similar to a knocking sound for a real knocking sound. Hitting a pillar to make something similar to a knocking sound is no good. When you record a knocking sound on a cassette tape and play it back, it becomes 'the sound of the tape with a knocking sound on it', and not a knocking sound. So that's no good either!

In other words, all of them would correctly distinguish a knocking sound of something truly hitting the door, and they definitely wouldn't mishear it. It's totally impossible that and sounds except hitting that door directly would be misinterpreted as a knock!!

Spoiler for Haven't played yet, but..:

Wait, all of them would? Is it confirmed that anyone heard a knock at all?

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by imaginari

Spoiler for Haven't played yet, but..:

Wait, all of them would? Is it confirmed that anyone heard a knock at all?

If that translation is correct then they absolutely did not misidentify a knock.

By the way, I went through the whole conversation regarding "The Knock". It was never specifically said that "that door = the conference room door". (Erika, did use blue truth to refer to the 'door to the dining room hall')

"A door" or "That door" refers only to the door which was knocked on and does not necessarily have to be the conference room door.

Edit: Actually, you're right. The theory "The knock never occured." still holds, my bad.

[Kamar]

I don't see how that translation in any way indicates that they heard a knock. All it seems to be saying is no-one misheard a knock. It's possible there was no sound to be misheard at all, based on that text.

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Spoiler for Witch Hunt Translation of some of "The Knock" red text:

None of the characters misidentified a knocking sound.

Misidentifying a knocking sound means this: they would not mistake a sound very similar to a knocking sound for a real knocking sound. Hitting a pillar to make something similar to a knocking sound is no good. When you record a knocking sound on a cassette tape and play it back, it becomes 'the sound of the tape with a knocking sound on it', and not a knocking sound. So that's no good either!

In other words, all of them would correctly distinguish a knocking sound of something truly hitting the door, and they definitely wouldn't mishear it. It's totally impossible that and sounds except hitting that door directly would be misinterpreted as a knock!!

Except for the one regarding Nanjo's death, I don't think any of the other blue truth Battler used in anime ep 26 to dodge the red were effective at all. Beatrice probably could have countered all of them with red truth.

I have to admit that due to the language barrier, the red I listed was a paraphrasing of the red and not a directly phrased translation that Witch-Hunt is more capable of.

Well my translation/paraphrasing/etc. of the red was very similar to Witch-Hunt's but I guess they'd be more correct. Even then however I do have to concede, the red didn't make a concession on a specific door, which again assuming you had the means to knock on another door strong enough to make it heard it is fairly possible.

Originally Posted by Kamar

I don't see how that translation in any way indicates that they heard a knock. All it seems to be saying is no-one misheard a knock. It's possible there was no sound to be misheard at all, based on that text.

There was specifically a knock, they all heard it and the VN says there was a knock, but what the red fails to indicate is that the knock was made specifically on the conference room door. Likewise the red states that while no one would mishear a knock, it doesn't say that they specifically hear it coming from said door.

[imaginari]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

There was specifically a knock, they all heard it and the VN says there was a knock, but what the red fails to indicate is that the knock was made specifically on the conference room door. Likewise the red states that while no one would mishear a knock, it doesn't say that they specifically hear it coming from said door.

I haven't played the game yet, but the red text list that I saw a while ago said that

Spoiler for possible late game spoiler:

Erika wasn't there to witness it.

[Renall]

Erika was in the guesthouse, and her theories all pretty much demand it. So she was not in the mansion to hear any knock. The red seems to suggest there was one, but I can see making an argument around it that they simply all lied.

[ijriims]

No "knock", then one has to explain how Battler acquired the family ring. And don't just read the red texts, sometimes "anyone" can include someone unknown to be there, but sometimes not. It depends on the context.

For Hideyoshi's room, no one checked anything except the bathroom. Erika just "scanned the room" with her eyes and intended to open the wardrobe. So it was not impossible for someone other than Natsuhi to hide in that room.

After Hideyoshi's room incident, 10 hours of time was skipped and was not explicitly describled. But as Ryukishi07 said, one who has found the Answer can probably know what was going on after this 2nd twilight.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by ijriims

For Hideyoshi's room, no one checked anything except the bathroom. Erika just "scanned the room" with her eyes and intended to open the wardrobe. So it was not impossible for someone other than Natsuhi to hide in that room.

Except all the other people are accounted for and therefore not hiding. Krauss' was confirmed to be dead soon after the mysterious man phone call. That only leaves the 5 who died in the first twilight.

As for the knock riddle there doesn't seem a way to get around it except by claiming that what it's been shown is significantly different than what really happened.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Renall

One could further theorize that the First Twilight victims were also faking as part of a plot to pressure Krauss and Natsuhi into revealing the deception. The plot was discussed at the family conference while Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji were away. Genji's purpose was to lead them away with the phone call, and later to fake his own death. The threatening phone call was perpetrated by the person claiming to be the Man From 19 Years Ago, and may or may not have actually been that man. However, he (or she) didn't tell anyone else that the story was actually true, and later, exploited the "fake" deaths and abduction of Krauss to actually kill the victims. Since the others were supposed to be faking it, and the bodies were not in an obvious location anymore, no one but the killer knew that the victims were dead. Thus, he could avoid all suspicion when he returned to the group because the killings were not part of the plan, and they didn't know he had his own objective.

There's a snag with this motive. Battler was at the conference with the adults, and he also participated in the deception regarding the first twilight victims, so it seems like he's part of the conspiracy. But if the purpose of the conspiracy was to force Natsuhi and Krauss to reveal Kinzo's death, then why did Battler come to Natsuhi's defense in the study? The closed room Erika constructed should have been exactly what the conspirators wanted, and Natsuhi might have cracked if Battler hadn't jumped in.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Except all the other people are accounted for and therefore not hiding. Krauss' was confirmed to be dead soon after the mysterious man phone call. That only leaves the 5 who died in the first twilight.

As for the knock riddle there doesn't seem a way to get around it except by claiming that what it's been shown is significantly different than what really happened.

In my hypothesis, Genji was hiding in that room. At that time (after Natsuhi left for hiding, others people thought she was going back to her room, of course except the 19th boy), Eva and Hideyoshi had already been to check the "dead people from 1st twilight" (using acting hypothesis here) but cannot found them, most probably they could only find a pool of blood like in Krauss's room. Genji killed the other four after they evacuated to the hiding place, and moved the bodies to a different place.

A person (Kyrie in my hypothesis) suggested Eva and Hideyoshi not to worry much and went to rest. Hideyoshi moved ahead of Eva because he didn't want to cry in front of other people. If Eva also entered the room at the same time as Hideyoshi, she would have been killed as well.

After Natsuhi rushed out the room, Genji also left. He was latter killed by Kyrie during the 10hours missing time, maybe saying she wanted to go for washroom, and then slipped into his hiding place to kill him.

Anyway, since the six were affirmed dead by 24, if one say one has to stick with acting hypothesis, one needs to explain who killed the six and how it was done.

Hideyoshi's death was not affirmed by red texts, but judging from Eva's action (beating Natsuhi aggressively) at 24:00 5th Oct, she would not do so unless she truly believes Natsuhi killed George and Hideyoshi. So Hideyoshi's death was confirmed IMO

---------------------------------------------

The knock incident did happen. But not at 24:00 but before that. The bell ring was faked by GM Lambda, an evidence was that the 24:00 bell ring on 5th Oct happened twice, once at the beginning of the fantasy court, once after Battler grasped the truth and was to revive in ???. So, it showed that the bell ring could not be trusted, according to Knox rules #8.

The letter deliverer was Nanjo, he went back to the mansion while Erika was playing cards with the cousins, it was the time around 23:20 I guess. He returned to the guest house by 24:00.

Read carefully for the part of dicovering the letter on the floor and you would find that it was said that Shannon and Kanon remembered themselves to come to the parlor a little bit after 23:00, not what was previously shown as after 23:47.

[Li Jianliang]

Spoiler for Answer to the letter and the knocking?:

1. The letter and the knocking.
I admit, I got goosebumps reading this part of the game at midnight in total darkness, save for the dim glow of the monitor. The sound effects really made the action (or lack thereof) sound spooky.

So at moments before midnight (0AM), there came two rounds of knocking on the door of the dining room. When people in the dining room finally answered the door, they only found a letter, with the Ushiromiya Master's Ring enclosed, from Beatrice on the floor on the other side of the door.

Question: Who knocked on the door and placed the letter?
No one in the dining could've done it, nor was it Genji, Krauss, Natsuhi. The only possible candidate is someone from the group that went to the guesthouse (George, Jessica, Maria, Kumasawa, Erika, Gohda, Nanjo). However, the red truth indicated that no one of the guesthouse group was even in the mansion at 0AM, creating a paradoxical situation. No one was in a position to have done it at 0AM.

Question: So how could've anyone done it if it's situationally impossible?
After discussing the mystery with a friend, he came up with a feasible theory. The time in the dining room was only given by the dining room clock, which eerily tolled at 0AM right after the knocking. No other method of time-checking was used. What if the clock in the dinning room was off by a few minutes, a few minutes fast? That moment of 0AM the player sees was actually not 0AM but something like 11:58PM. In this case, it was possible for the culprit to knock, place the letter, quickly leave the mansion, and rejoin the guesthouse group before the real 0AM came about.

[Jan-Poo]

Li Jianliang that theory is quite popular but after reading the novel again I've noticed that Natsuhi's clock is mentioned as well and it says 0:07 which is pretty plausible considering some minutes must have passed.

So that clock should have been changed as well. But Natsuhi's door was locked so you'd have to suspect a servant to be involved.