(L) Mushoku Tensei: Isekai Ittara Honki Dasu (Jobless Reincarnation)

[Tuor]

^ Even if he wasn't socially inept, Eris is. But yeah, how Rudy was going to react to what happened is pretty obvious. Went from the top of the world to the bottom in minutes.

[magnuskn]

Dude still has issues of abandonment and loneliness from his prior life, so yeah. Let's hope he doesn't fall into a depression and relapse because of it.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by VDZ

That still makes this episode the turning point, not the previous one. One could argue the Orsted defeat was a turning point for Eris, but from Rudeus' and the audience's perspective this episode was where things collapsed. From last episode, things could've still gone in various directions (she could've talked about it to the party (and possibly gotten convinced not to leave), she could've done it before Ruijerd left leaving Rudy not completely alone, etc). Only now did the story hit a point where a change of direction is inevitable.

It almost feels like the episode titles were swapped, with the episode in which their dreams were crushed and they had to face reality being 'Turning Point 2' while the episode where everything collapsed and the story suddenly changes direction is called 'Dreams/Reality'.

It's all a matter of your definition of "turning point". Put in terms of shogi, you apparently would define the "turning point" as the moment when it became exceptionally obvious to all viewers that one side has taken the full advantage, while if you were to ask the experienced pros they may show a point ten, even twenty steps before when a single move swung things and everything past that became inevitable.

This is the point when the turn became apparent, when he discovered that he'd taken a path he hadn't anticipated, which led to the turn becoming much bigger very quickly. Orsted was the point when that path forked. Eris finding out her family was dead was inevitable and set in stone long ago. It was also basically inevitable that she'd come home to find out that it was deemed her "responsibility" to become a concubine to some piece of scum noble. It was not inevitable that they'd get in a fight with the Dragon God. That's the deciding point that shifted their destiny.

Also, my interpretation of Eris's feeling of imbalance lies in her perspective of what she and Rudy were able to do in that fight. She was taken out in an instant, tossed aside like a ragdoll. She got back up and tried again, sure, but it was no more effective. The best she was able to do was crawl on the ground trying to reach Rudy. On the other hand, despite his far more grievous injuries, Rudeus kept putting up a serious fight. He launched attack after attack, many hitting much harder than anything Eris had managed, and despite the situation continued to strategize. Her image is most certainly exaggerated by her own ego, but there's no doubt Rudy was much closer to being an actual match for Orsted. She may have the potential to reach those levels, but for now in her eyes he was the one that was able to continue fighting and protecting them while she was completely useless. Add to that that she'd responded to Orsted's mere presence with pure terror and Rudy talked to him directly, and even after having his heart punched out merely started thinking of "how do I fight him next time", it was too much for an impulsive, cocky fifteen-year-old girl's heart to handle. So yeah, I'd say her departure for further training has always been inevitable, but her decision to leave separate from Rudy and make a pointed effort to make sure he doesn't follow her or see her again until she's ready was a direct result of the fight.

[SeijiSensei]

Given Rudeus's mind-set, it's hard to imagine him not concluding that he failed to "perform" up to Eris's expectations. I think she sees him as still too immature; after all he is younger than her.

[Jan-Poo]

I guess the only thing that's left for Rudeus to do at this point is to search for Sylphie and Zenith. Though traveling alone is a very huge risk. What happens if he gets captured again? Who's going to save him? I think he's probably bound to form a new party, but with whom?

BTW where did Aisha and Lilia go exactly? Did they join up with Paul?

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Dude still has issues of abandonment and loneliness from his prior life, so yeah. Let's hope he doesn't fall into a depression and relapse because of it.

And this is the first time he's ever found love, let alone companionship, with a woman. A woman that seemingly actually wanted him. And then she left.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I guess the only thing that's left for Rudeus to do at this point is to search for Sylphie and Zenith. Though traveling alone is a very huge risk. What happens if he gets captured again? Who's going to save him? I think he's probably bound to form a new party, but with whom?

BTW where did Aisha and Lilia go exactly? Did they join up with Paul?

Maybe he'll try and find Paul and Norn again. I assume Aisha and Lilia went to rejoin up with them.

[maximilianjenus]

yes, the road sign at the end of EP 20 said they were going to milis.

funny thing about Rudy, this is another world but with him being japanese is easy to interpret eris cutting her hair in the japanese way that she is done with him. plus the promise to have sex will most likely backfire as " well, she only did it to fulfill her promise".

it's fun to think what would have happened had they not meet orsted, first thing is that Rudy and eris would not have separated, so, would they have joined with Ghislaine to search for zenith in the northern territories? or maybe ghsilaines and eris want revenge for sauros, Alphonse wants them to become nobles, and remember that right before turning point 1, Phillip and Paul were setting up rudeus and eris to become nobles, so laybe putting all that together, the story would have gone that way, rudeus,Alphonse getting a conspiration with other nobles who want to overthrow either philemon or eris brothers ( i think philemon is the most likely target, people back then used to think that was Phillips plan, Larry wish to philemon the. have her kill him, hence why she trained the sword) and we would get some fun politics arc in asura, ofc what Rudeus gets from this is money and power to help him search for zenith.

also, the noble that wanted eris as a concubine was not any random noble or even random Greyrat, he is Paul's brother ( Rudy's full blood uncle ) , i don't think Paul would do something like that even at his worse so the rumours of phillemon being worse than Paul ( ep08) were not exagerated.

very curious about next episode, there are 3 "chapters" they could adapt, going by the title i am positive one of them is not going to get adapted, the other two could be , wither have them both in the same episode, like with episode 13, or make one of them longer than the novel, like episode 18. the good thing is that no matter what they do is a win win, just a different experience out of 3 possible good ones.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Given Rudeus's mind-set, it's hard to imagine him not concluding that he failed to "perform" up to Eris's expectations. I think she sees him as still too immature; after all he is younger than her.

I'm pretty sure that's what he thinks she means, that he's too immature, not good enough in bed, or otherwise inferior. Can't buy that she thinks that at all though.

[Tenzen12]

While I wouldn't put it past Rudeus completely, I very doubt so. If nothing else I am pretty sure he doesn't suspect Eris being some kind of Nympho who would run away after one (unsuccessful?) night. He can probably figure much less ridiculous cause to be wrong about.

[Frontier]

Now I'm wondering if Hilda gave Eris high expectations for sex .

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

While I wouldn't put it past Rudeus completely, I very doubt so. If nothing else I am pretty sure he doesn't suspect Eris being some kind of Nympho who would run away after one (unsuccessful?) night. He can probably figure much less ridiculous cause to be wrong about.

That’s why I said “inferior”. As in anything from disparities in class to his immaturity or anything else that would hypothetically make her feel that he wasn’t good enough for her. What it comes down to is him reading “not balanced” as “you’re not on my level”.

That said a guy who was tormented with insults concerning his manhood in his past life could pretty easily fall back into “Little Rudy doesn’t measure up”.

[Tenzen12]

I understand your reasoning, that's why I said "I wouldn't put it past Rudeus completely", nonetheless it would make terrible awkward writing. Rudeus has more usable and more importantly bigger issues to go for.

[VDZ]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

It's all a matter of your definition of "turning point". Put in terms of shogi, you apparently would define the "turning point" as the moment when it became exceptionally obvious to all viewers that one side has taken the full advantage, while if you were to ask the experienced pros they may show a point ten, even twenty steps before when a single move swung things and everything past that became inevitable.

This is the point when the turn became apparent, when he discovered that he'd taken a path he hadn't anticipated, which led to the turn becoming much bigger very quickly. Orsted was the point when that path forked. Eris finding out her family was dead was inevitable and set in stone long ago. It was also basically inevitable that she'd come home to find out that it was deemed her "responsibility" to become a concubine to some piece of scum noble. It was not inevitable that they'd get in a fight with the Dragon God. That's the deciding point that shifted their destiny.

Also, my interpretation of Eris's feeling of imbalance lies in her perspective of what she and Rudy were able to do in that fight. She was taken out in an instant, tossed aside like a ragdoll. She got back up and tried again, sure, but it was no more effective. The best she was able to do was crawl on the ground trying to reach Rudy. On the other hand, despite his far more grievous injuries, Rudeus kept putting up a serious fight. He launched attack after attack, many hitting much harder than anything Eris had managed, and despite the situation continued to strategize. Her image is most certainly exaggerated by her own ego, but there's no doubt Rudy was much closer to being an actual match for Orsted. She may have the potential to reach those levels, but for now in her eyes he was the one that was able to continue fighting and protecting them while she was completely useless. Add to that that she'd responded to Orsted's mere presence with pure terror and Rudy talked to him directly, and even after having his heart punched out merely started thinking of "how do I fight him next time", it was too much for an impulsive, cocky fifteen-year-old girl's heart to handle. So yeah, I'd say her departure for further training has always been inevitable, but her decision to leave separate from Rudy and make a pointed effort to make sure he doesn't follow her or see her again until she's ready was a direct result of the fight.

But the thing is, Eris leaving isn't any more inevitable than them meeting Orsted was. In fact, I would say it's the opposite way around - given that they were heading in opposite directions on the same trail, it would take a lot to prevent the two parties from meeting. A change in conversation, a small detour, something they notice, none of those would prevent the meeting. They could even camp and stay in place for a day longer, and they still would have met. The only way they could've avoided that outcome was if, at that specific time, Rudeus had kept his mouth shut.

Meanwhile, Eris's decision was a completely psychological matter, and all kinds of things could have influenced it. Maybe if they talked about different things on the way there, the topic could've come up and Rudeus could have said things that ended up changing her mind. If they'd been a day slower Eris might have reconsidered, or perhaps at some point Rudeus might have discovered her intentions. If either Ruijerd or Rudeus pointed out the simple fact that traveling alone is dangerous so they should stick together (otherwise Rudeus is fucked; he's had to be rescued multiple times now) Eris might have stayed. Hell, if Rudeus had drunk a bit less he could've woken up as Eris tried to leave and stopped her. There are so many things that could have prevented this.

In chess-like games, losing a valuable piece is not necessarily a definitive turning point. There are board states which cannot be recovered from against a competent player, but most situations can still be turned around even from a disadvantage state.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by VDZ

But the thing is, Eris leaving isn't any more inevitable than them meeting Orsted was. In fact, I would say it's the opposite way around - given that they were heading in opposite directions on the same trail, it would take a lot to prevent the two parties from meeting. A change in conversation, a small detour, something they notice, none of those would prevent the meeting. They could even camp and stay in place for a day longer, and they still would have met. The only way they could've avoided that outcome was if, at that specific time, Rudeus had kept his mouth shut.

Meanwhile, Eris's decision was a completely psychological matter, and all kinds of things could have influenced it. Maybe if they talked about different things on the way there, the topic could've come up and Rudeus could have said things that ended up changing her mind. If they'd been a day slower Eris might have reconsidered, or perhaps at some point Rudeus might have discovered her intentions. If either Ruijerd or Rudeus pointed out the simple fact that traveling alone is dangerous so they should stick together (otherwise Rudeus is fucked; he's had to be rescued multiple times now) Eris might have stayed. Hell, if Rudeus had drunk a bit less he could've woken up as Eris tried to leave and stopped her. There are so many things that could have prevented this.

In chess-like games, losing a valuable piece is not necessarily a definitive turning point. There are board states which cannot be recovered from against a competent player, but most situations can still be turned around even from a disadvantage state.

You actually seem to get it. This is the point where one decision transformed the path moving forward, in this case how Rudy handled the encounter with Orsted. It's not about them having encountered him. As you said, they were on a narrow trail and would have encountered it. However, Rudy chose to talk to him, which in turn inspired him to ask if he knew the Man-God. If Rudy hadn't talked to him and called attention to how different he is (including his bizarre lack of fear), or if he'd thought better of acknowledging his knowledge of the Man-God, it would've been a scary moment that quickly passed. However, he did call out to him, and he did acknowledge his familiarity with the Man-God, and that was the turning point.

As for the things that happened after, much was inevitable. It was inevitable that Eris would find herself in a situation where she's the last of her bloodline, and the political situation has reached a point where the "best thing" for her people would be if she became the concubine of some sleazy old noble. In such a situation, she probably would have had few options, the best of which may have been to leave. However, she wouldn't have had this consciousness of the differences in her and Rudy's power, this awareness that she can't protect him. She really would've had far less reason to leave him and deliberately keep her whereabouts hidden from him. The most you can say of things happening later as "turning points" is that Rudy failed to stop things from heading the way they'd started to head.

Once again, looking at chess and what's often identified by experienced professionals as "turning points", it's often not the "mating point", which appears to be what you equate it to: the point where no possible move can avoid the final outcome. At that point they'd often say a player actually is "mated". The turning point is just where the advantage has been lost by a large margin, large enough to have a decisive impact on the final outcome. Take a scene from March Comes in Like a Lion:

Spoiler:

Takahashi shows Rei a commentary on one of his matches, where Nikaido explodes with fury at Rei over a particular move he made. Takahashi's father and grandfather were avid shogi players and agreed that it was a good, strong, solid move. It was still quite early in the game, and there was still plenty of room later on for Rei to find a move that would salvage the situation. But he failed to do so, and even admitted to Takahashi that he himself felt that was the point where he "lost". Again, he wasn't mated at that point; there may be a large number of moves he could've made later to turn things around. But he failed to find those moves and wound up just getting carried along to his loss following one move that was so bad it made his best friend fly into a rage. That's what Rudy's actions toward Orsted were: one stupid move that led things down a path that he might have been able to get out of if he properly realized and thought hard enough, but he didn't and so ended up stuck in this situation.

[Gerard07]

Questions; Is it specified at some point how Philip and Hilma died?.
What are the chances that they will animate another season?,has the anime done well in sales?.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Gerard07

Questions; Is it specified at some point how Philip and Hilma died?.
What are the chances that they will animate another season?,has the anime done well in sales?.

The manga showed it. I'll refrain from stating how in case they show it next episode.

There should be more seasons. It's pretty damned popular.

[maximilianjenus]

note that turning point in mushoku tensei means a very specific thing, that thankfully is mostly parallel to what most of us understand by the phrase. i like the shit analogy because it is very close to the meaning given to it by the author. i can find a way to phrase without it sounding like hints either one way or the other, but maybe that is me overthinking it.

[stray]

Can we call the next episode "Time Skip" if we're being brutally literal?

Now that he's lost his V card can hikki Rudy actually STFU? I feel like its well past time for his internal monologue to fade away a bit. Or will he just mope even more now about being pumped and dumped?

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by GDB

The manga showed it. I'll refrain from stating how in case they show it next episode.

There should be more seasons. It's pretty damned popular.

And the studio basically exists just to adapt it .

Originally Posted by stray

Can we call the next episode "Time Skip" if we're being brutally literal?

Now that he's lost his V card can hikki Rudy actually STFU? I feel like its well past time for his internal monologue to fade away a bit. Or will he just mope even more now about being pumped and dumped?

I wonder if Rudy's internal narration will fade into whatever his older voice ends up being as he gets older...although it'll be hard not to hear Yumi Uchiyama .

[Jan-Poo]

What if Tomokazu Sugita is chosen for Rudy's adult voice too?