(L) Genjitsu Shugi Yuusha no Oukoku Saikenki (How a Realist Hero Rebuilt the Kingdom)

[Tenzen12]

Shipping wars are fun though.

[stray]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

The advantage of the harem trope is that it sidesteps most of the shipping wars...

But can you really call it winning?

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

As for fidelity you and @Itlandm are right and I should word it better. Nonetheless that itself is issue, ie man (in patriarchal harem) have consent take multiple wifes, while same thing doesn't apply to wifes itself as they are expected not taking any other partner.

Of the places where polygamy is still accepted in the 21st century women aren't really in a position to consent, they're just sort of expected to do as they are told. Its very much not a democratic arrangement, especially if a new wife shows up.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Since the matriarchs in this isekai world are also free & accepted to practise polyandry by choice (as per Juna's info) at least the "victims" are not limited to wives. Some husbands also "suffered" the same fate. Truly gender equality at its finest!!!

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by stray

But can you really call it winning?

I'd say the plus edges out the minus by a bit. But it's just a personal preference.

[BWTraveller]

I certainly wouldn't want a harem in real life, but I don't think it's that entirely unrealistic. Sure, romantic love is, in a sense, selfish. However, this selfishness is more a matter of a desire to have that love requited, to have the beloved return that love in equal measure. I do earnestly believe that it is best to have a one-to-one relationship, but that doesn't mean I find it completely unbelievable that a person would be happy to be one of multiple recipients of a single person's love. Especially if one lives in a society that approves of such systems. I don't really have that much difficulty suspending my disbelief to accept a woman declaring that she wants to be one of the hero's wives.

But yeah, harems do exist basically to try and satisfy all shippers at the same time. A variety of girls are given so that it becomes more likely that any reader/watcher will have someone they like to ship, and in stories where polygyny can be believable, they have a good chance of being permanently set as part of the relationship so that every ship can sail.

Funny thing, the discussion makes me think back to a semi-fantasy American novel called "A Brother's Price" that takes a serious look at a variety of aspects of harem dynamics. One thing that stuck with me was the author's description of why she believed polygynous harems are far more believable than polyandrous ones: a man can father many children simultaneously, but a woman can only have one child a year, and a man can't be entirely sure that one of a woman's other husbands didn't father the child (without tests), but a woman obviously knows that the child in her arms is hers and her beloved's. Since children and families in general are often seen as an ultimate product of two people's love, there is at least less likelihood of problems with polygyny than polyandry.

In any case, I'd say harems are a way to satisfy a power fantasy (I'm not saying this as a bad thing, power fantasies are one of the central points of a majority of stories regardless of the MC's gender). But not the sort of power fantasy people often think of. Most of the time I don't get the impression that the fantasy is to be able to attract, win or take as many girls as possible. It's more a matter of wanting to have the power to make a difference in people's lives and to be in a world where the things one does for others is more readily recognized and rewarded. That's why usually in harems the guy isn't just surrounded by girls that think he's cool or girls he took (though those harems exist as well), but rather by girls who experienced various personal struggles that the hero helped to save her from. Each one is a fantasy of having the strength, wisdom and courage to help someone who needs help and of having that work appreciated to the greatest level possible. You just get to experience it over and over rather than just once per series.

[grecefar]

yeah is not fun if your ship sunks...

[Tenzen12]

It's not fun, indeed. That said it's still better alternative as long as ending is believable (and it's not worst girl or toxic pairing). After all it's either one girl win and other loose or mc wins and ALL girls loose.

[stray]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

That's why usually in harems the guy isn't just surrounded by girls that think he's cool or girls he took (though those harems exist as well), but rather by girls who experienced various personal struggles that the hero helped to save her from. Each one is a fantasy of having the strength, wisdom and courage to help someone who needs help and of having that work appreciated to the greatest level possible. You just get to experience it over and over rather than just once per series.

Honestly if that's what you enjoy a route structure does that far, far better because you're not constrained by things like first girl bias, or the fact that the harem needs to grow. Though I guess some people may feel like its a cop out when its done outside of galge. Polygamy is actually kind of a rarity in eroge aside from legends like Evenicle - which actually presented it in a much more believable way than this series.

The polygamy here just feels tacked on, and there solely because the author thought it would be cool and make Souma more amazing or something. There's a ranking system but seemingly no consideration for political marriage which is just sort of bizarre, especially while watching other stuff like Genius Prince or Dune.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by stray

Honestly if that's what you enjoy a route structure does that far, far better because you're not constrained by things like first girl bias, or the fact that the harem needs to grow. Though I guess some people may feel like its a cop out when its done outside of galge. Polygamy is actually kind of a rarity in eroge aside from legends like Evenicle - which actually presented it in a much more believable way than this series.

The polygamy here just feels tacked on, and there solely because the author thought it would be cool and make Souma more amazing or something. There's a ranking system but seemingly no consideration for political marriage which is just sort of bizarre, especially while watching other stuff like Genius Prince or Dune.

I have no problem with "route" structure or multi-ending. In fact I wish they'd do it more often. I was just noting that this plays a big part in why it's popular, and that it doesn't seem so much to me to be a matter of some "able to get all the girls" fantasy but rather "able to help and appreciated for one's actions".

And really, yeah, polygyny is just sort of added here to allow the harem. Honestly, I don't mind it personally. Isekai is a setting where it's at least a fair degree believable, so I'm willing to allow it. And I certainly find it more believable for girls to be okay sharing a guy when they grew up in a culture where this was a fairly common practice. I liked "If Her Flag Breaks", but it was seriously weird to see tons of average girls from Japan so happy to share the hero equally. If it's made clear that the girls are used to the idea then I don't really mind.

[stray]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

I was just noting that this plays a big part in why it's popular, and that it doesn't seem so much to me to be a matter of some "able to get all the girls" fantasy but rather "able to help and appreciated for one's actions".

I'm not actually agreeing with you, I think harems are generally very weak at that particular theme. If the hero does a good deed for one girl he'll end up with two tagalongs who think he's the greatest thing since sliced bread just... because. And eventually they may get their moment but first girl bias and adding more girls to the harem typically takes precedence. If you actually want to see a hero make a difference in the love interests lives there's better places to look.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by stray

I'm not actually agreeing with you, I think harems are generally very weak at that particular theme. If the hero does a good deed for one girl he'll end up with two tagalongs who think he's the greatest thing since sliced bread just... because. And eventually they may get their moment but first girl bias and adding more girls to the harem typically takes precedence. If you actually want to see a hero make a difference in the love interests lives there's better places to look.

Well, depends on the harem really. A lot of the good ones I've seen every girl who becomes a member had her own story arc that involved her being in need of some kind of help that he provided, whether something direct like saving a DID or just emotional support and words of encouragement that others refused to give.

That said, I'm not disagreeing with you that there are better stories that provide better quality satisfaction of this desire. Harem is basically quantity versus quality. If you have five girls with sufficient backstories, then you get to "experience" the act of making a difference and being admired five times. That doesn't mean all five times are going to be great. Creating a compelling romance even twice with one side kept the same is difficult. Making a character that fits that well with multiple LIs is quite a task and will likely require one to reduce the complexity of the characters as well as their motivations. I guess you could say that if a proper one-to-one romance is a delicious, perfectly crafted meal that's small but satisfying, and that will thrill you with every bite, then harem is a simple meal with basic but sufficiently satisfying seasoning that's honestly too big to eat on your own. Both can be a satisfying meal, in different ways, depending on whether you want to just fill yourself up to bursting or savor every morsel.

[VDZ]

It's an excuse to have a bunch of cute girls all in love with the protagonist while skipping most of the annoying harem (as in the rom-com genre) tropes. Do we really need to make a big deal out of it? Sure, proper romance can be nice at times but that's not what I'm watching an isekai for. So to me it seems a lot better to just say 'join the harem' and be done with it rather than going with will-they-or-wont-they story arc #352562356.

[stray]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

That said, I'm not disagreeing with you that there are better stories that provide better quality satisfaction of this desire. Harem is basically quantity versus quality. If you have five girls with sufficient backstories, then you get to "experience" the act of making a difference and being admired five times. That doesn't mean all five times are going to be great. Creating a compelling romance even twice with one side kept the same is difficult. Making a character that fits that well with multiple LIs is quite a task and will likely require one to reduce the complexity of the characters as well as their motivations.

Galge would like a word with you. The whole "helping all the girls" premise is not specific to harems and is really more rooted in visual novels and VN adaptations like Clannad where there actually was a route for every girl. And then there's other derivatives like Monogatari and Bunny Girl Senpai where the MC helps all the girls while being in a committed (monogamous) relationship.

If you've got some examples of these good harems or good MC you're talking about it would be kind of helpful, because your typical harem manga or isekai harem just doesn't have the depth you're describing. Even this series follows the formula I've already laid out - Aisha for example pledges her undying loyalty over how amazing Souma is when he basically tells her "well duh, you've got to prune the forest!" though eventually Souma does have to help her village directly.

Originally Posted by VDZ

It's an excuse to have a bunch of cute girls all in love with the protagonist while skipping most of the annoying harem (as in the rom-com genre) tropes. Do we really need to make a big deal out of it?

I'm only critical of it for being low effort. I guess its possible the issue is explained more clearly in the source but polygamy only seems to exist in this world because god said so and that's that. And while Liscia actually seems to take issue with Souma taking multiple wives I don't trust the writing to actually go anywhere with it. Incel otaku would probably burn their books if their waifu actually took a second husband.

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by stray

I'm only critical of it for being low effort. I guess its possible the issue is explained more clearly in the source but polygamy only seems to exist in this world because god said so and that's that. And while Liscia actually seems to take issue with Souma taking multiple wives I don't trust the writing to actually go anywhere with it. Incel otaku would probably burn their books if their waifu actually took a second husband.

I did appreciate that they actually addressed that she wasn't 100% for it and had to accept it for practical reasons, which felt in-character, but they're probably not going to develop it much beyond that.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by stray

Galge would like a word with you. The whole "helping all the girls" premise is not specific to harems and is really more rooted in visual novels and VN adaptations like Clannad where there actually was a route for every girl. And then there's other derivatives like Monogatari and Bunny Girl Senpai where the MC helps all the girls while being in a committed (monogamous) relationship.

If you've got some examples of these good harems or good MC you're talking about it would be kind of helpful, because your typical harem manga or isekai harem just doesn't have the depth you're describing. Even this series follows the formula I've already laid out - Aisha for example pledges her undying loyalty over how amazing Souma is when he basically tells her "well duh, you've got to prune the forest!" though eventually Souma does have to help her village directly.I'm only critical of it for being low effort. I guess its possible the issue is explained more clearly in the source but polygamy only seems to exist in this world because god said so and that's that. And while Liscia actually seems to take issue with Souma taking multiple wives I don't trust the writing to actually go anywhere with it. Incel otaku would probably burn their books if their waifu actually took a second husband.

Dude, good harems ARE rooted in galge. Tenchi might have played a big part in the popularity of the genre, but it can't be ignored that a huge amount of harems, especially earlier ones, were based on dating sims. When I say "Harem" I'm not just talking about stories where all the girls agree to love the guy equally and share him. Galge types where the guy just has lots of girls that like him and are trying to get him to notice their feelings are just as much harems.

As for "good" harems, well, there's "We Never Learn" and "DxD" for starters (you may not consider them "good" but they are entertaining and at least fair). Even bad stories often make an effort to have harems that meet this setup, like "How Not to Summon a Demon Lord" (I actually think this's an ok series but I understand some people disagree; either way just about every girl in the harem either fell for him or had an upgrade in their feelings following some sort of scenario where he offers support or rescues her). In all of these, most if not all of the girls' feelings toward the hero are suggested to be at least partly rooted in bad situations the girls get in that the hero helps them out of. Some feelings may develop beforehand of course, but that moment when the hero stands up for her tends to be the final stroke that makes them fully acknowledge it. We're not really talking about something "deep" here, just a style of romance (basically a loose interpretation of the "Rescue Romance" trope) that appeals to a number of otakus to the extent that a fairly simple implementation is still quite satisfying and draws in a crowd.

And yeah, this series itself can be seen to at least turn a bit toward this. A harem doesn't have to be deep to implement this. Honestly, I'd say very few harems are actually anything approaching "deep". As I said before, as hard as it is to make a deep relationship between two people, making several deep relationships where one side is kept the same is extremely difficult. Just making several relationships work tends to require making the characters and their relations shallow, making the guy more generic so he can fit wherever you stick him and/or making each girl more one-dimensional so that they're unique from each other but still have a specific way that they "get along" with the hero. Sometimes the story even takes note of the way it does this, like in Rokujouma where...

Spoiler:

It's eventually revealed that the hero somehow got thrown back to the Big Bang and won the heart of the goddess that created everything; said goddess split her being into a collection of selves, namely the girls in the hero's harem, each representing a part of her whole personality. They were literally designed to each be focused on a small set of traits.

I guess it's not really "harem genre" that is designed to fulfill this, but a fairly common subset of it. There certainly are others, ranging from "I like him because I like him" to mind control or slavery. This one leans toward this standard, as do a large portion of isekai and even light novels in general.

[stray]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

As for "good" harems, well, there's "We Never Learn" and "DxD" for starters (you may not consider them "good" but they are entertaining and at least fair).

I'm... guessing you didn't follow the manga because Bokuben actually split into routes past a point to focus on the girls individually, and is an example of what I said I'd specifically like to see more of. I wasn't that into the series but I respected what it did. I like DxD for what it is but there's still plenty of girls hovering around Issei for no really good reason. I can't think of anyone Issei had to win over aside from Koneko, though I've not read the source. I've read plenty of spoilers though.

Dude, good harems ARE rooted in galge. Tenchi might have played a big part in the popularity of the genre, but it can't be ignored that a huge amount of harems, especially earlier ones, were based on dating sims. When I say "Harem" I'm not just talking about stories where all the girls agree to love the guy equally and share him. Galge types where the guy just has lots of girls that like him and are trying to get him to notice their feelings are just as much harems.

I guess if you're anime only with no intention of reading the source they might seem the same but they're written with completely different outcomes in mind. Harems are meant to drag out the indecision as long as possible, while galge and such are built to produce 3, 4, 5 or maybe more conclusive endings. What you consider a "harem" in the context of the adaptation I consider a "common route".

Tangentially if you are into galge and want isekai with polygamy and royalty HaremKingdom is a safe bet with a very similar premise, better execution, and also fucking hilarious.

[VDZ]

Why would the protagonist having helped the heroine be necessary for the heroine to fall in love with the protagonist? Love is irrational. If anything, i'd say 'you rescued me now I love you' is more unrealistic than girls loving the protagonist simply because he's cool. Not that realism should be a factor, we just want cute heroines in love with the protagonist, and such story arcs should exist mainly to flesh out the character. In typical high-school harems having the protagonist help the character with some personal problem is the go-to way of doing so, but in isekai there are plenty of ways to flesh out characters without the protagonist being too involved.

Originally Posted by stray

I guess its possible the issue is explained more clearly in the source but polygamy only seems to exist in this world because god said so and that's that.

It's the other way around. We already know that in this setting people are not equal (there is a clear social hierarchy), so given inequality and no prohibition from God, in a patriarchal society (which Elfrieden appears to be) powerful men will naturally take multiple wives because that's what many men desire. Polygyny only decreases in favor of monogamy as equality increases, and polyandry typically arises only in situations where population growth is unwanted.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by stray

I'm... guessing you didn't follow the manga because Bokuben actually split into routes past a point to focus on the girls individually, and is an example of what I said I'd specifically like to see more of. I wasn't that into the series but I respected what it did. I like DxD for what it is but there's still plenty of girls hovering around Issei for no really good reason. I can't think of anyone Issei had to win over aside from Koneko, though I've not read the source. I've read plenty of spoilers though.I guess if you're anime only with no intention of reading the source they might seem the same but they're written with completely different outcomes in mind. Harems are meant to drag out the indecision as long as possible, while galge and such are built to produce 3, 4, 5 or maybe more conclusive endings. What you consider a "harem" in the context of the adaptation I consider a "common route".

Tangentially if you are into galge and want isekai with polygamy and royalty HaremKingdom is a safe bet with a very similar premise, better execution, and also fucking hilarious.

I haven't read the manga, no, though I do know that it broke after a point. Doesn't change the fact that a large portion was standard harem with lots of girls simultaneously in love. And I too want more "route" stories. I didn't ever say I didn't, just that this was an understandable method to indulge a particular fantasy, and not the sort of fantasy I sometimes hear people derisively refer to (the sort you find more accurately portrayed in slavery or mind control harems) but one where one's able to do something of worth and be appreciated for it. And in DXD, while sure there might be a few outsiders who're just kind of interested in him, the entire main harem falls to some extent under "rescue romance". He didn't entirely have to "win them over" in terms of getting them to like him, but getting it beyond friendship and attraction to pure, devoted love coincided pretty well with his efforts for a lot of the girls. And I'm not saying harems are the same as dating sims. I'm sure Da Capo the anime is very different from the game, but that doesn't change the fact that they were trying to emulate the game while at the same time getting as much of the "good stuff" from every route into the series. And that's why many galge adaptations are harem: they want to squeeze as much of all routes in at the same time, so they just twist things so they all "fit" in a single timeline. You can certainly say that they're very different, and you're not wrong, but you can't deny the influence that the games had on the genre.

Originally Posted by VDZ

Why would the protagonist having helped the heroine be necessary for the heroine to fall in love with the protagonist? Love is irrational. If anything, i'd say 'you rescued me now I love you' is more unrealistic than girls loving the protagonist simply because he's cool. Not that realism should be a factor, we just want cute heroines in love with the protagonist, and such story arcs should exist mainly to flesh out the character. In typical high-school harems having the protagonist help the character with some personal problem is the go-to way of doing so, but in isekai there are plenty of ways to flesh out characters without the protagonist being too involved.



It's the other way around. We already know that in this setting people are not equal (there is a clear social hierarchy), so given inequality and no prohibition from God, in a patriarchal society (which Elfrieden appears to be) powerful men will naturally take multiple wives because that's what many men desire. Polygyny only decreases in favor of monogamy as equality increases, and polyandry typically arises only in situations where population growth is unwanted.

You do realize there's a difference between a "genre" that indulges a "fantasy" and a real-life situation? I never said that rescue romance was realistic. Saving someone and showing them your courage, determination, strength etc. can certainly impress and help sway a person in your favor, but indeed it's not enough for serious romantic love. But having a person recognize your good sides, having them appreciate your efforts and being able to achieve something with those efforts is still a common fantasy that a fair amount of harems seem to indulge to some extent. Not necessarily an absolute indulgence where absolutely every girl loves the boy because he saved her and no other reason, but still with a good bit of that sort of motivation slid in. Just like how, while Aisha might not love Souma purely because of how he saved her people, it can't be denied that his efforts to help played a significant role in her desire to get close to him.

Also, as far as why polygyny exists, I'd have to look back but I think it's sort of like Smartphone and a lot of other isekai series. The world is a dangerous place with high mortality rates, and since men DO tend to be favored in more dangerous jobs for a broad range of reasons, in particularly dangerous times the population tended to get skewed. Even if the population is more even now, a history with more women than men would encourage polygyny in order to maintain numbers.

[VDZ]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

You do realize there's a difference between a "genre" that indulges a "fantasy" and a real-life situation? I never said that rescue romance was realistic. Saving someone and showing them your courage, determination, strength etc. can certainly impress and help sway a person in your favor, but indeed it's not enough for serious romantic love. But having a person recognize your good sides, having them appreciate your efforts and being able to achieve something with those efforts is still a common fantasy that a fair amount of harems seem to indulge to some extent. Not necessarily an absolute indulgence where absolutely every girl loves the boy because he saved her and no other reason, but still with a good bit of that sort of motivation slid in. Just like how, while Aisha might not love Souma purely because of how he saved her people, it can't be denied that his efforts to help played a significant role in her desire to get close to him.

But you and Stray are talking as if a harem founded upon the girls loving the protagonist for being cool is worse than a 'rescue harem'. You're free to have your preferences, but considering a harem 'bad' because the girls had no 'reason' to fall in love makes as little sense as the 'love as reward' fantasy you and Stray seem to prefer.

[Tenzen12]

Yes, notion that saving girl = girl fall in love is obviously unrealistic, but so is stories where virtues and bravery is rewarded and evil punished. Girls don't fall in love because they owe it to mc or anything, but because sort of karma caused that.

In same way when mc choose girl that "doesn't deserve it", it's not about how love work, but about them not earn enough of that "karma". We want universe make sense at least in fiction and that's why arguments "suck it off, love is irrational" don't really work as if we use that argument it also means there is no point in trying and any effort is meaningless.
all we get left are NTRs. On opposite end if story give too much freebies, it's not good story as "undeserved" happiness isn't something anyone want see.