Shiniki no Campioness

[roronoa20]

Originally Posted by Laksmana2

You've read Campione! all? There is an item to create Godslayers in campione !, a system made by Pandora, Epimetheus and Prometheus, what was presented in SnC is different, they even mention devouring the body of a god.

You do not judge the power of a black hole just for that, because one was used to attack and the other as distraction (a black hole actually has a lot more power than just destroying an island).

And I'm not referring to [Faceless Queen's] combat ability, but only its magical power, remembering that Melqart wanted to play against [Boar], so much so that he only physically fought at first.


But I must say that it is impressive how underrated Alec and his Authorities, [Labyrinth] is an individual power that has 1 month of recharge, [Faceless Queen] is an individual power whose function focuses on only invoking a divine being, and finally [Wandering Avarice] is an individual power again whose function is to create a black hole, you treat as random powers that Ren could easily master, being told that individual authorities are much more powerful and Ren has difficulties with great powers, he almost died with a serious ray of Zeus, had difficulty reflecting large attacks and even admitted that some would be impossible for him.

Nemesis's also an individual power.

Nemesis's authority reflection power doesn't depend on opponent's magical power. It count on how much damage that attack will cause. That's why [Faceless Queen] can be reflected.

I never underestimate Alec's authority.

[The Labyrinth] can't really do anything to Ren. Its traps are useless against his escaping godspeed. However, Ren can't do anything to it either.

Yes, [Wandering Avarice] is a very powerful authority comparable to [Storm Bringer]. I think their powers are the same but work on a different principle. Alec's an authority specialize in one hit kill with precise control in power. Godou's focusing on AOE and destructive capability with no power restrain.

The reason why Ren can reflect [Wandering Avarice] is that this authority has very low attack potency. His authority can't invalidate an extremely strong attack instantly. If ren was stuck by it attraction force, he'll have time to sharpen his concentration to increase his reflection threshold due to its slow speed.

[Uxas]

Originally Posted by GodSoul

Ren has a symbiotic relationship with Stella, who is different from the "subordinate god" of Lancelot du Lac, and the gods who were shown in SNC were True God and not Heretic, even with Stella hiding Ren, Apollo and Odin noticed that there was something wrong with him but could not tell what it was.

I think that this effect is related to some passive effect of "Friendship Ring," as it is an authority designed to force friendships, it may have the effect of preventing reactions in the bodies of the gods and Godslayers, allowing Ren to make friends with them. I think this authority is similar to Madame Aisha's "Charm or Curse," but as her attribute and friendship with gods, he may be stronger.

[roronoa20]

A thought for the latest chapter.

WoW, I thought Godou was a terrific womanizer, but Ren just take on this to an another level.

[haseo0408]

Originally Posted by Uxas

I think that this effect is related to some passive effect of "Friendship Ring," as it is an authority designed to force friendships, it may have the effect of preventing reactions in the bodies of the gods and Godslayers, allowing Ren to make friends with them. I think this authority is similar to Madame Aisha's "Charm or Curse," but as her attribute and friendship with gods, he may be stronger.

Well Charm or Curse had no effect whatsoever in gods so surprises there, that Authority is more like civilization destroyer more than anything, just activate the insane power and watch as the whole world destroys itself to protect Aisha!.

[Laksmana2]

Originally Posted by roronoa20

Nemesis's also an individual power.

Nemesis's authority reflection power doesn't depend on opponent's magical power. It count on how much damage that attack will cause. That's why [Faceless Queen] can be reflected.

I never underestimate Alec's authority.

[The Labyrinth] can't really do anything to Ren. Its traps are useless against his escaping godspeed. However, Ren can't do anything to it either.

Yes, [Wandering Avarice] is a very powerful authority comparable to [Storm Bringer]. I think their powers are the same but work on a different principle. Alec's an authority specialize in one hit kill with precise control in power. Godou's focusing on AOE and destructive capability with no power restrain.

The reason why Ren can reflect [Wandering Avarice] is that this authority has very low attack potency. His authority can't invalidate an extremely strong attack instantly. If ren was stuck by it attraction force, he'll have time to sharpen his concentration to increase his reflection threshold due to its slow speed.

Alec just did not use it as an attack, even because he did not need it. But in the end it is still a black hole with tens of meters, approaching it, and even touching it, would make the body of the target be annihilated. Do not underestimate the force of gravity.

[roronoa20]

Originally Posted by Laksmana2

Alec just did not use it as an attack, even because he did not need it. But in the end it is still a black hole with tens of meters, approaching it, and even touching it, would make the body of the target be annihilated. Do not underestimate the force of gravity.

Do you have a quote when it's used for attacking? If not then that's a headcanon. I don't underestimate the force of gravity, I simply can't underestimate something that's not in the book, sorry.

I you use Godou's [Storm bringer] I'd say Ren will have super high chance of failure, since the authority has an extremely high attack output and very fast. On the other hand, [Wandering Avarice] may have a stronger force of gravity, but it doesn't do the damage to his body except freezing him with Gravity field. It's slow enough for Ren to sharpen his authority and reflect it.

[wghokay]

Great to see that there is a big activity in this thread! (The last time this happened was probably back when the identity of King of The End was revealed).

I just want to add one more point to the discussion about this "what-if" matches between Campiones.
It was said by Lu YingHua in SS6 that things like compability, bad matchup, etc, means nothing to Campiones. After all, these people kill Gods despite the latter being much stronger than them.
What will most likely happen in a battle between two campiones is that, the one in the disadvantage will somehow unlock more power/usage to balance the field, e.g.

Spoiler for Scenes from Campione:

Doni using Ripping Silver Arm with his bare hand as a sword against Luo Hao.

My take is that this is the author's way of avoiding making a consistent tierlist, so that when he needs Campione X beating Campione Y, he can just go and say "hey, these godslayers are ridiculous beings, so it just works".

[Laksmana2]

Originally Posted by roronoa20

Do you have a quote when it's used for attacking? If not then that's a headcanon. I don't underestimate the force of gravity, I simply can't underestimate something that's not in the book, sorry.

I you use Godou's [Storm bringer] I'd say Ren will have super high chance of failure, since the authority has an extremely high attack output and very fast. On the other hand, [Wandering Avarice] may have a stronger force of gravity, but it doesn't do the damage to his body except freezing him with Gravity field. It's slow enough for Ren to sharpen his authority and reflect it.

It is one thing to be freezing, another is to have the body immobilized because it is using its power to resist gravitational attraction. You are confusing the effects of the Authority by relying on the characters who partially resisted their effects.

That remains a black hole and Alec can control it freely, what happened against Lancelot was that he left the Authority in an automatic mode.

Originally Posted by wghokay

Great to see that there is a big activity in this thread! (The last time this happened was probably back when the identity of King of The End was revealed).

I just want to add one more point to the discussion about this "what-if" matches between Campiones.
It was said by Lu YingHua in SS6 that things like compability, bad matchup, etc, means nothing to Campiones. After all, these people kill Gods despite the latter being much stronger than them.
What will most likely happen in a battle between two campiones is that, the one in the disadvantage will somehow unlock more power/usage to balance the field, e.g.

Spoiler for Scenes from Campione:

Doni using Ripping Silver Arm with his bare hand as a sword against Luo Hao.

My take is that this is the author's way of avoiding making a consistent tierlist, so that when he needs Campione X beating Campione Y, he can just go and say "hey, these godslayers are ridiculous beings, so it just works".

All Campiones are practically Protagonists, they are all lucky in their favor, they can acquire more power in times of crisis and always evolve more. What happens to Doni is that he has finally completely dominated his Authority (apparently) by giving up using objects as weapons.

[roronoa20]

Originally Posted by Laksmana2

It is one thing to be freezing, another is to have the body immobilized because it is using its power to resist gravitational attraction. You are confusing the effects of the Authority by relying on the characters who partially resisted their effects.

That remains a black hole and Alec can control it freely, what happened against Lancelot was that he left the Authority in an automatic mode.

I've never confuse the effect of this authority. In my every arguments prior, I always include the fact that Godslayers can resist the authority via their magic resistance. Unless, You'll say that SNC's godslayer doesn't have magic resistance.

Automatic mode or not. The author stated in his official authority description that [Wandering Avarice] has extremely slow speed and can be used as a trap. There's no informations that it will become more faster or powerful if Alec directly use it. Joe Takeduki doesn't mention anything further than that in both official notes and story.

Please stop making up any effect or condition that's not in the book. It's not canon, thus it won't have any relevances in this argument.

If what you've said is true please show me quote that prove your statements correct.

PS. Don't forget to merge post

[haseo0408]

How many volumes are released as of now?.

[Laksmana2]

Originally Posted by roronoa20

I've never confuse the effect of this authority. In my every arguments prior, I always include the fact that Godslayers can resist the authority via their magic resistance. Unless, You'll say that SNC's godslayer doesn't have magic resistance.

Automatic mode or not. The author stated in his official authority description that [Wandering Avarice] has extremely slow speed and can be used as a trap. There's no informations that it will become more faster or powerful if Alec directly use it. Joe Takeduki doesn't mention anything further than that in both official notes and story.

Please stop making up any effect or condition that's not in the book. It's not canon, thus it won't have any relevances in this argument.

If what you've said is true please show me quote that prove your statements correct.

PS. Don't forget to merge post

He mentions that gravity is the same as a black hole, and against Lancelot the Authority was in an automatic mode, if Alec is directly controlling it it can both increase power (something that can be done in any authority and magic) and could control the movement of it. Against the slow [Wandering Avarice] Ren could not escape because he would not activate his divine speed, and with Alec controlling he could approach the black hole of Ren more and more, the closer, the greater the effect of gravity.

This kind of thing does not need to mention the author or even occur directly in the series, it's easy to conclude. It is only basic to the Authorities (increased power), the fact that Alec left [Wandering Avarice] in automatic mode (which means that he was not directly controlling his movement or increasing his power), and of course, the fact that gravity increases in effect as the objects are closer together.

You are simply underestimating the power of this Authority because it has been used as a distraction, not as an attack, and even unaware that its power is to draw everything with the gravity of a black hole.

[CCPDarkraiRules]

Originally Posted by haseo0408

How many volumes are released as of now?.

I think it is 4.

[roronoa20]

Originally Posted by Laksmana2

He mentions that gravity is the same as a black hole, and against Lancelot the Authority was in an automatic mode, if Alec is directly controlling it it can both increase power (something that can be done in any authority and magic) and could control the movement of it. Against the slow [Wandering Avarice] Ren could not escape because he would not activate his divine speed, and with Alec controlling he could approach the black hole of Ren more and more, the closer, the greater the effect of gravity.

This kind of thing does not need to mention the author or even occur directly in the series, it's easy to conclude. It is only basic to the Authorities (increased power), the fact that Alec left [Wandering Avarice] in automatic mode (which means that he was not directly controlling his movement or increasing his power), and of course, the fact that gravity increases in effect as the objects are closer together.

You are simply underestimating the power of this Authority because it has been used as a distraction, not as an attack, and even unaware that its power is to draw everything with the gravity of a black hole.

Authority 5 – Weird Greed (Wandering Avarice)

It summoned a gigantic sphere of darkness that would suck everything.

Its movement speed was slow, but its absorption force was tremendous just like a black hole.

If the absorption force was suppressed, it was possible to make the darkness ball’s size smaller.


Where did he mention that it suction force can be increased? It is possible to be suppressed in the author notes.

It is said that its movement speed is slow.

Ren doesn't need to activate his divine speed to use nemesis's authority. If it can't hurt Lancelot and Guinevere, then that's not going to do anything to Ren either.

That kind of things need to be mention by author or character in the series or it won't make any senses in the narrative. If what you've said is true. Why won't Alec use its 'non-automatic mode' in the series proper? What you said is like claiming that Godou can move pass lightning speed with [Raptor] if he pushes more magical energy into it.

I'm aware of black hole's gravitational force enough to say that [Wandering Avarice] isn't as strong as actual black hole. 30 cm black hole can disintegrating human from several hundreds of kilometers away. This pseudo black hole at 30- 40 meters in size can't even swallow Lancelot and Guinevere. Alec doesn't even consider using it in the civil war.

If I'm underestimating Alec's authority then you're lowballing Ren's authority too. Ren can concentrate his magical energy to increase his reflection threshold, and being stuck by [Wandering avarice] freezing him on spot is equal to give him more time to focus his authority.

I'm still waiting for the quote that describe what you've claimed to be true. If you're in an argument, at lease, please provide some evidences to back up you claim.

In the future, when Alec appears in the second series. Ren might be attacked by this authority and failed to reflect it. However, now, we have yet to see these two meet each other and fight. With all the available information. I'd say that Ren is perfectly capable of deflecting this authority via its low attack potency and slow speed.

[Laksmana2]

Originally Posted by roronoa20

Authority 5 – Weird Greed (Wandering Avarice)

It summoned a gigantic sphere of darkness that would suck everything.

Its movement speed was slow, but its absorption force was tremendous just like a black hole.

If the absorption force was suppressed, it was possible to make the darkness ball’s size smaller.


Where did he mention that it suction force can be increased? It is possible to be suppressed in the author notes.

It is said that its movement speed is slow.

Ren doesn't need to activate his divine speed to use nemesis's authority. If it can't hurt Lancelot and Guinevere, then that's not going to do anything to Ren either.

That kind of things need to be mention by author or character in the series or it won't make any senses in the narrative. If what you've said is true. Why won't Alec use its 'non-automatic mode' in the series proper? What you said is like claiming that Godou can move pass lightning speed with [Raptor] if he pushes more magical energy into it.

I'm aware of black hole's gravitational force enough to say that [Wandering Avarice] isn't as strong as actual black hole. 30 cm black hole can disintegrating human from several hundreds of kilometers away. This pseudo black hole at 30- 40 meters in size can't even swallow Lancelot and Guinevere. Alec doesn't even consider using it in the civil war.

If I'm underestimating Alec's authority then you're lowballing Ren's authority too. Ren can concentrate his magical energy to increase his reflection threshold, and being stuck by [Wandering avarice] freezing him on spot is equal to give him more time to focus his authority.

I'm still waiting for the quote that describe what you've claimed to be true. If you're in an argument, at lease, please provide some evidences to back up you claim.

In the future, when Alec appears in the second series. Ren might be attacked by this authority and failed to reflect it. However, now, we have yet to see these two meet each other and fight. With all the available information. I'd say that Ren is perfectly capable of deflecting this authority via its low attack potency and slow speed.

You have just stated that the author lied about gravity only because divine beings have been able to resist the Authority.
Lancelot and Guinevere are not human if you have forgotten, Lancelot was even called "the strongest of steel," and the gods of steel have a huge defense.

And you greatly overestimate Ren's power, he spent a lot of time avoiding Susanoo's attacks instead of returning them, he only uses them in necessary moments because he knows that both his power and his stamina can not withstand attacks by divine level.

Ren's greatest asset is to invoke attacks that he has seen or been used against him in the past, directly returning damage is a desperate measure he rarely uses to avoid an instant death.

[roronoa20]

Originally Posted by Laksmana2

You have just stated that the author lied about gravity only because divine beings have been able to resist the Authority.
Lancelot and Guinevere are not human if you have forgotten, Lancelot was even called "the strongest of steel," and the gods of steel have a huge defense.

And you greatly overestimate Ren's power, he spent a lot of time avoiding Susanoo's attacks instead of returning them, he only uses them in necessary moments because he knows that both his power and his stamina can not withstand attacks by divine level.

Ren's greatest asset is to invoke attacks that he has seen or been used against him in the past, directly returning damage is a desperate measure he rarely uses to avoid an instant death.

If you go by that logic, godslayers are more than capable of resisting [wandering avarice]

It's a common science my friend. Black hole at that size would obliterate the entire world easily. Even if Lancelot and Guinevere can resist its effect on themselves, the surrounding couldn't. Alec would've died for a long time by now when he fought behemoth with that authority.

Author uses 'just like' not 'the same as'.

Lancelot is a strongest steel? Maybe, we'll have queen of the end instead of king. Rama is the strongest steel in this series. If you're so sure with that provide me with a quote from the book.

As I told you, I've never overestimate Ren's authority. I simply state what he can and can't. Also, during the fight with Susanoo. He dispersed his energy to Riona via winged contract that's why he didn't have enough energy to use it.(I'll wait for baka's translation on this part though)

Yup, he'll use that to avoid being crushed by pseudo blackhole. With magic resistance that both Gods and godslayer possess. He'll have a time to focus his magical energy and concentration to increase its reflection.

Ren tried to use the retribution and noticed.

「It’s impossible unless I slowly concentrate like when resurrecting the dead people at Troia. No, even if there is time that fire is too powerful, it feels like the chance of failure will be fifty-fifty……」

Wandering Avarice = Slow speed = more time to concentrate his authority = capable of reflecting it.

Yes, the chance of failure is high, but deflectable.

[Laksmana2]

Originally Posted by roronoa20

If you go by that logic, godslayers are more than capable of resisting [wandering avarice]

It's a common science my friend. Black hole at that size would obliterate the entire world easily. Even if Lancelot and Guinevere can resist its effect on themselves, the surrounding couldn't. Alec would've died for a long time by now when he fought behemoth with that authority.

Author uses 'just like' not 'the same as'.

Lancelot is a strongest steel? Maybe, we'll have queen of the end instead of king. Rama is the strongest steel in this series. If you're so sure with that provide me with a quote from the book.

As I told you, I've never overestimate Ren's authority. I simply state what he can and can't. Also, during the fight with Susanoo. He dispersed his energy to Riona via winged contract that's why he didn't have enough energy to use it.(I'll wait for baka's translation on this part though)

Yup, he'll use that to avoid being crushed by pseudo blackhole. With magic resistance that both Gods and godslayer possess. He'll have a time to focus his magical energy and concentration to increase its reflection.

Ren tried to use the retribution and noticed.

「It’s impossible unless I slowly concentrate like when resurrecting the dead people at Troia. No, even if there is time that fire is too powerful, it feels like the chance of failure will be fifty-fifty……」

Wandering Avarice = Slow speed = more time to concentrate his authority = capable of reflecting it.

Yes, the chance of failure is high, but deflectable.

I did not say that Lancelot was the king of the end, only that she was called the strongest of the steel in a moment, even Hanuman after appearing was also called so if I am not mistaken.
And will you deny the power of Authority based on the fact that it does not cause senseless destruction on the stage? Just for that? Even the author confirming that it has the gravity of a black hole?
And the fight against Susanoo lasted long before that, but Ren could not do anything because Susanoo's attacks were too strong and too fast.
[Wandering Avarice] has slow movement after being summoned to divine standards, but Ren without divine speed has the speed of a human.
And Ren would be killed by Susanoo's thousand swords, he practically went into despair and did not try to reflect any because he saw that he would not stand a chance.

[roronoa20]

Originally Posted by Laksmana2

I did not say that Lancelot was the king of the end, only that she was called the strongest of the steel in a moment, even Hanuman after appearing was also called so if I am not mistaken.
And will you deny the power of Authority based on the fact that it does not cause senseless destruction on the stage? Just for that? Even the author confirming that it has the gravity of a black hole?
And the fight against Susanoo lasted long before that, but Ren could not do anything because Susanoo's attacks were too strong and too fast.
[Wandering Avarice] has slow movement after being summoned to divine standards, but Ren without divine speed has the speed of a human.
And Ren would be killed by Susanoo's thousand swords, he practically went into despair and did not try to reflect any because he saw that he would not stand a chance.

As I told you, show me the quote when these two have been called strongest steel. IF you're debating with someone, please try to have some actual evidence to back up your claim.

Gravity of a black hole? I've already told you, if it actually have that this world would've been destroyed by now. If resisted by magic resistance then its effect would've been diminished immensely to the point of causing no pain.

Senseless destructive force is an important factor in this. If the attack is too strong and fast then Ren can't reflect it instantly. [Wandering Avarice] has slow speed and can be resisted by magic resistance. it doesn't seem to cause any huge collateral damage either.

Slow movement by divine standard? Where did you get that? Also, it doesn't matter anyway. If Ren was struck, he can use his magic resistance to resist its effect, remain unhurt and concentrate his authority. Godspeed isn't require in this scenario

Of course, Ren can't reflect that, it has both speed and attack potency that [Wandering Avarice] hasn't.

[Laksmana2]

Originally Posted by roronoa20

As I told you, show me the quote when these two have been called strongest steel. IF you're debating with someone, please try to have some actual evidence to back up your claim.

Gravity of a black hole? I've already told you, if it actually have that this world would've been destroyed by now. If resisted by magic resistance then its effect would've been diminished immensely to the point of causing no pain.

Senseless destructive force is an important factor in this. If the attack is too strong and fast then Ren can't reflect it instantly. [Wandering Avarice] has slow speed and can be resisted by magic resistance. it doesn't seem to cause any huge collateral damage either.

Slow movement by divine standard? Where did you get that? Also, it doesn't matter anyway. If Ren was struck, he can use his magic resistance to resist its effect, remain unhurt and concentrate his authority. Godspeed isn't require in this scenario

Of course, Ren can't reflect that, it has both speed and attack potency that [Wandering Avarice] hasn't.

In that I was wrong, it is said that Lancelot was the most important after the strongest of steel.

And meaningless destruction is totally unnecessary to prove that what the author himself has informed is a truth, you may care about it but he does not, and it is not you who writes the novel.

And [Wandering Avarice] was able to get out of the water (showing how the Authority is controllable), being that it was deep and hidden beneath it and rising in the sky and making its effect quickly as I remember, that's fine faster than normal Ren speed.

But if you will insist that the author was lying, then you can deconsolidate everything that has been said in both novels, and beat anyone you prefer because all the information is false.

[roronoa20]

Originally Posted by Laksmana2

And meaningless destruction is totally unnecessary to prove that what the author himself has informed is a truth, you may care about it but he does not, and it is not you who writes the novel.

And [Wandering Avarice] was able to get out of the water (showing how the Authority is controllable), being that it was deep and hidden beneath it and rising in the sky and making its effect quickly as I remember, that's fine faster than normal Ren speed.

But if you will insist that the author was lying, then you can deconsolidate everything that has been said in both novels, and beat anyone you prefer because all the information is false.

First, you said that Ren will be in pain when struck by [Wandering Avarice]. When there's no explicit mention that this power will cause pain.

Second, You said that Alec [Wandering Avarice] can annihilate people within tens of meters radius. Which Alec never uses it.

Third, Rising in the sky? There's no mention of that... The sphere never leave the sea. Narrative also mention that the sphere moves very slow. If you mean the attraction force that instantly activate when they reach the trap. That can't be measured in suction speed, but activation speed instead.

Lancelot summoned magical power, trying to break free from the authority's restraints, but it did not work. The source of this attractive force, the sphere, actually moved very slowly. But its attractive power was terrifyingly great in inverse proportion to its slow mobility. Even the white war god could not struggle free.


I was wrong in one of my point though. Wandering Avarice doesn't cause pain even without magic resistance to fight its power. Guinevere is a divine ancestor and she's fine. Godslayer shouldn't have much trouble either.

You know, I'm going to stop asking for a quote from you. You can't even stop making up effects and conditions that's not in the book.

Meaningless destruction = Attack potency. The more damage that attack cause, it'd be harder for Ren to reflect it. The author does care about that part. If he doesn't then Ren should've reflect Voban and Susanoo attacks already.

I never told that the author is lying. I simply state the normal and common logic which you can learn in school that. Black hole at that size would end the world easily.

I never said that Ren will beat Alec. My point is that Ren can reflect [Wandering Avarice] albeit with great difficulty. Not impossible, but manageable.

[haseo0408]

You know mage associations in Ren's world are full of idiots, they are attaking the woman of a Devil King and they expect to get away with it!? There are less painful ways to commit mass suicide.