Madoka Magica - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[hyperborealis]

I remember this episode

Madoka clearly remembers the previous timeline, although she's not (yet?) aware that she is doing so. I was thinking that the other characters remember too, but not directly, but only indirectly, in the increased seriousness with which they take their roles as MGs. This would be a memory that does not rise even to the level of a deja vu: it would be more like the way Freud talks about the unconscious structuring the conscious mind, unbeknown to the conscious mind itself.

No doubt the slice-of-life series will feature Madoka visiting her therapist weekly.

Just kidding, that's not going to happen. Sorry to scare everybody!!!

[Archon_Wing]

Hmm... speaking of Trek comparisons, but this may disturb the hell out of some of you

Spoiler for Star Trek Voyager Finale:

In the finale, Janeway goes back in time, abandons all her principles, and basically undos many years just basically to save Seven of Nine (well ok, a few other main characters)and kinda sacrfices herself....Then you consider all the yuri fanfic, and I'm like shit. Also, some guy had died only a little earlier, so why didn't she go back earlier? Hmm... looks like she only cares about a few people, lol. (main characters).

The similarities were: A character with a great regret that obsessively tried to get back what was lost and was willing to go back and tgime and change everything.

Of course, that ending sucked, so... meh.

[ednaeleva]

I think that the girl appears like madoka with long hair is her soul gem,maybe,she won´t need to make a contract with Kyubey after all

[Deconstructor]

Not that I have anything against Star Trek: The Next Generation, but these seem like two vastly different shows to compare. The whole teenage helpless depressed girl on Earth concept is rather far away from adult humans, robots, and aliens piloting space ships in the future.

This show is rather elementary in scientific explanations... entropy and time-travel are presented in a very simple and straightforward manner. To remain consistent, the show will likely focus on Madoka and Homura's emotions, instead of trying to introduce more plot devices. The stage is already set for the final act; all that remains to be seen is how the scene plays out.

Honestly, while plot devices like Soul Gems are interesting concepts in themselves, they only exist to enhance the emotional impact of the scene. The idea of one's own soul locked into a stone brings out a certain reaction from the audience, and it certainly riled up Kyoko.

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

Madoka clearly remembers the previous timeline, although she's not (yet?) aware that she is doing so. I was thinking that the other characters remember too, but not directly, but only indirectly, in the increased seriousness with which they take their roles as MGs. This would be a memory that does not rise even to the level of a deja vu: it would be more like the way Freud talks about the unconscious structuring the conscious mind, unbeknown to the conscious mind itself.

You may as well suggest that Madoka is subconsciously holding herself back and repressing these memories because she fears them. That Madoka has locked away all the tragedies of past timelines in the corner of her mind, fearing that history might repeat itself. As Freud might say, Madoka's repression could be a survival instinct against the predator Kyubey. She's been down the path of a Puella Magi several times before, so in order for Madoka to deal with those memories, she seals them away. But, Madoka doesn't seem to have completely removed herself from Homura and the past.

I hope the ending is more than Madoka admitting those fears, saying "I accept my destiny. I accept my role as destroyer of the world." I hope that Madoka rejects reality and fate, keeping in mind there exists no reasonable possibility of success, and thereby bringing about a true miracle. But we've went down this road before...

[taofd]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

I remember this episode

Madoka clearly remembers the previous timeline, although she's not (yet?) aware that she is doing so. I was thinking that the other characters remember too, but not directly, but only indirectly, in the increased seriousness with which they take their roles as MGs. This would be a memory that does not rise even to the level of a deja vu: it would be more like the way Freud talks about the unconscious structuring the conscious mind, unbeknown to the conscious mind itself.

No doubt the slice-of-life series will feature Madoka visiting her therapist weekly.

Just kidding, that's not going to happen. Sorry to scare everybody!!!

Slice of Life Madoka Magica... Oh... my heart almost burst.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

Not that I have anything against Star Trek: The Next Generation, but these seem like two vastly different shows to compare. The whole teenage helpless depressed girl on Earth concept is rather far away from adult humans, robots, and aliens piloting space ships in the future.

This show is rather elementary in scientific explanations... entropy and time-travel are presented in a very simple and straightforward manner. To remain consistent, the show will likely focus on Madoka and Homura's emotions, instead of trying to introduce more plot devices. The stage is already set for the final act; all that remains to be seen is how the scene plays out.

Honestly, while plot devices like Soul Gems are interesting concepts in themselves, they only exist to enhance the emotional impact of the scene. The idea of one's own soul locked into a stone brings out a certain reaction from the audience, and it certainly riled up Kyoko.

Everything is a plot device. The goal is to not make it obvious. However you're missing the point of the comparison. I wasn't comparing the two shows directly, I was comparing similarities in plot between one show (Madoka) and one show's episode (Star Trek). You're confusing setting with story.

To be honest Star Trek's time travel/dimensional stories are often more convoluted and contrived than they should be. But many of them are quite good in spite of that.

There's a few elements of Madoka that are not explained yet. Yes, we know about entropy and time travel, but we're still missing pieces of the puzzle. We don't know the relevance of Madoka's memory blanks. We don't know if Madoka is actually getting stronger through each reset or not. We don't know the point of the cat (if it's not a red herring). We don't know what Kyubey means when he talks about Homura's wish and entropy. We don't know definitively what the result of Sayaka (Octavia) and Kyouko's final clash is. Are they both dead? Giant explosions cliffhangers at the end of episodes don't always equal death. It's an arguable point for now. We don't know what Madoka wished for in each time loop.

We don't have the whole picture, imo.

As for Freud, personally I see it more like Jung's idea of the personal/collective unconscious. This got me thinking.

The idea of a collective unconscious reminded me of the concept of the Akashic records. You may be familiar with this if you've seen Fate/Stay Night or Kara no Kyoukai.
This then reminded me of a book I read a long time ago that told a story of Merlin, and how he lived backward through time (compared to normal people that live forward through time).
I search for "time flows backwards" on Google.
I find a link to a Time article from 1966, regarding a scientist proposing the concept of a Faustian Galaxy. Hmm. Faust. That's odd.
I notice in the article the scientist talks about K-mesons.
I search "K-mesons" on Google.
Wiki has an article on Kaon (heh, K-on!), neat stuff about quarks and particle physics.
I note the See also section linking to time reversal symmetry.
Enter all sorts of discussion, links, and theories about the second law of thermodynamics and entropy.

I love random learning.

[NaweG]

Faustian Galaxy is a fairly old concept. For example, this 1966(!) article from Time:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...836315,00.html

Still, the resemblances are there...

Of course the series LOST played with this concept a bit as well. As long as we don't see any planes crashing during WN I think we're ok though.

[Deconstructor]

Originally Posted by Solace

There's a few elements of Madoka that are not explained yet. Yes, we know about entropy and time travel, but we're still missing pieces of the puzzle. We don't know the relevance of Madoka's memory blanks. We don't know if Madoka is actually getting stronger through each reset or not. We don't know the point of the cat (if it's not a red herring). We don't know what Kyubey means when he talks about Homura's wish and entropy. We don't know definitively what the result of Sayaka (Octavia) and Kyouko's final clash is. Are they both dead? Giant explosions cliffhangers at the end of episodes don't always equal death. It's an arguable point for now. We don't know what Madoka wished for in each time loop.

We don't have the whole picture, imo.

We do not have the whole picture? I mostly disagree.

The viewers know that Walpurgi's Night is approaching. They also know that Homura is going to attempt to fight off Walpurgi's Night by herself. What I expect to see in episode 11 is one final conversation between Madoka and Homura, with Madoka trying to dissuade Homura from fighting. Maybe something like this: "Homura, let's run far, far away! There's no hope in fighting Walpurgi's Night... but we can still live on. Make love to me!"

Some of the missing facts you seek will probably remain missing, forever. (Until addressed by Urobuchi in fan letters.) Asking whether Madoka is getting stronger each reset seems to be already explained by the fact that Madoka wished for something trivial in the first few timelines, but later wished for something substantial in timeline 4.

The cat... was probably put there to get people thinking about it. For crying out loud, it's one second in the opening!

Kyubey typically explains himself when prompted by someone; at this juncture, the main characters are more concerned with fighting off super-mega witch. Kyubey was unaware that Homura came from the past, so I should also assume he knows little about the properties and implications of Homura's wish. Entropy... sheesh, that really is stirring up the discussions. Chances are, the full truth behind Kyubey will remain a mystery, right up to the finale. He may reveal some final things in the next two episodes, but I bet they will not be a revelation to shock the viewers. It will more likely fall into the realm of "Once your planet is dead, I'll just move on to another one." Or, "I lied to you this whole time. I don't grant wishes. And I take great pleasure in seeing you suffer, Madoka."

Kyoko and Sayaka were enveloped by a giant white explosion. It is assumed that Kyoko released latent energy within in exchange for her life. Furthermore, their bodies would have probably disintegrated in the explosion, so using corpses as an indicator is somewhat fruitless. If witch Sayaka were alive, then wouldn't Homura would have gone and killed her anyway? All I am suggesting are these speculations are better off remaining as such, so the current story can develop.

The one thing that should be addressed is the flashback Madoka experienced in episode 1. Once that's out of the way, the plot is free to advance in whatever way Urobuchi wants.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

The one thing that should be addressed is the flashback Madoka experienced in episode 1. Once that's out of the way, the plot is free to advance in whatever way Urobuchi wants.

There has been more than 1 flashback to date.

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

Kyubey was unaware that Homura came from the past, so I should also assume he knows little about the properties and implications of Homura's wish. .

Actually, Kyoko and QB touch on this issue in Episode 5. QB tells Kyoko he "doesn't know" who Homura is, at which Kyoko is amazed, since she presumes QB had to know who she is, since only QB could have made her into a magical girl. "What the heck? Didn't she agree to your contract to become one?" To this QB responds, "Maybe, maybe not./ She's an irregular. / I can't tell what she's going to do."

QB should be able to logic things out. Here's Homura, a magical girl. She could only get that way if he had made a contract with her. However, he doesn't remember making a contract with her. He knows he doesn't forget, and he knows the scope of his own powers. Therefore he knows he made a contract with her at a point of time he is not able to remember, which would be another time line. Ergo he must have granted Homura a wish in a previous timeline that allows for her to exist in this current timeline. The specific wish, and what it does to make time travel happen, he may not know; but he does know, just by logic, that Homura is from a different timeline.

The only reference I know that suggests that QB doesn't know Homura is a time traveler is in the latest episode, when Homura tells him she's not going to fight uber-witch Madoka, since this is not her timeline. He says, in evident surprise and dawning recognition, "Akemi Homura, you're a...," and we infer he's going to say "time-traveler." Does anyone know another reference?

If QB really doesn't know that Homura is a time-traveler, which is to say, he can't use the train of logic I described above, then that is a sure sign that girls can become MGs without QB's intervention. In other words he doesn't know how Homura became a magical girl since she might have become a magical girl without him ever having had anything to do with it.

Of course, I may be reading too much into this. Scratch that, I am reading too much into this.

I think I'm ready for the next episode already.

[Deconstructor]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

Ergo he must have granted Homura a wish in a previous timeline that allows for her to exist in this current timeline. The specific wish, and what it does to make time travel happen, he may not know; but he does know, just by logic, that Homura is from a different timeline.

I admit that Kyubey has deduced Homura is from the past, but I am not ready to say Kyubey can deduce Homura's wish through her time-travelling ability. Kyubey says that Homura uses time-travelling magic, which suggests that time travel may simply be part of Homura's Puella Magi powers and have no relation to her wish. Of course, it was also said (or was it theorized?) that a Puella Magi's powers are dependent on their wish, but whether Kyubey knows enough about the relationship between the two to reason out Homura's wish is unclear.

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

He says, in evident surprise and dawning recognition, "Akemi Homura, you're a...," and we infer he's going to say "time-traveler." Does anyone know another reference?

Homura's the cat from Yumekui Merry. Meow.

No, if anyone else can think of something else, then it might be worth considering.

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

Of course, I may be reading too much into this. Scratch that, I am reading too much into this.

I think I'm ready for the next episode already.

Hardly. Reading too much into it is taking a cat that appears in the opening for a few seconds and connecting it to Homura because the cat's fur color matches Homura's hair color. Also, Madoka is hugging it, and Homura likes Madoka. Connection!

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

Hardly. Reading too much into it is taking a cat that appears in the opening for a few seconds and connecting it to Homura because the cat's fur color matches Homura's hair color. Also, Madoka is hugging it, and Homura likes Madoka. Connection!

But...But , Homura and the cat appeared together on a magazine cover

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by totoum

But...But , Homura and the cat appeared together on a magazine cover

Normal Madoka and Puella Magi Madoka also appeared side by side on a magazine. What's your point?

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

We do not have the whole picture? I mostly disagree.

I figured you would.

The viewers know that Walpurgi's Night is approaching. They also know that Homura is going to attempt to fight off Walpurgi's Night by herself. What I expect to see in episode 11 is one final conversation between Madoka and Homura, with Madoka trying to dissuade Homura from fighting. Maybe something like this: "Homura, let's run far, far away! There's no hope in fighting Walpurgi's Night... but we can still live on. Make love to me!"

I'm not sure it will play out like that. The preview indicates Madoka and Kyubey will be having an interesting conversation at the very least. Episode 10 might have been Homura explaining everything to Madoka finally. We'll have to wait and see.

Some of the missing facts you seek will probably remain missing, forever. (Until addressed by Urobuchi in fan letters.) Asking whether Madoka is getting stronger each reset seems to be already explained by the fact that Madoka wished for something trivial in the first few timelines, but later wished for something substantial in timeline 4.

Is power tied to wish? We don't know, there's no confirmation. Homura's wish is pretty strong, but she's arguably the weakest MG once you take away her conventional weapons.

The cat... was probably put there to get people thinking about it. For crying out loud, it's one second in the opening!

I don't dismiss the cat because so far the show has been painstakingly detailed and plotted out. The references to classic literature, historical figures, compositions, allegories, etc., are all done through animation and plot and all are relevant to some degree.

The only anomaly is that cat. Two episodes left but we've never actually seen it in the show and it even makes an appearance in promotional artwork. It is either a legendary troll, or it means something (Schrodinger's?).

Kyubey typically explains himself when prompted by someone; at this juncture, the main characters are more concerned with fighting off super-mega witch. Kyubey was unaware that Homura came from the past, so I should also assume he knows little about the properties and implications of Homura's wish. Entropy... sheesh, that really is stirring up the discussions. Chances are, the full truth behind Kyubey will remain a mystery, right up to the finale. He may reveal some final things in the next two episodes, but I bet they will not be a revelation to shock the viewers. It will more likely fall into the realm of "Once your planet is dead, I'll just move on to another one." Or, "I lied to you this whole time. I don't grant wishes. And I take great pleasure in seeing you suffer, Madoka."

Walpurgis is the plot device, however the only character left who cares about the Witch being defeated are Homura and Kyubey, and they don't care about the Witch nearly as much as they care about Madoka.

I wouldn't be surprised if Kyubey had some surprises left, on the other hand Homura is kind of screwed at the moment. It's pretty much Kyubey's game to lose right now.

Kyoko and Sayaka were enveloped by a giant white explosion. It is assumed that Kyoko released latent energy within in exchange for her life. Furthermore, their bodies would have probably disintegrated in the explosion, so using corpses as an indicator is somewhat fruitless. If witch Sayaka were alive, then wouldn't Homura would have gone and killed her anyway? All I am suggesting are these speculations are better off remaining as such, so the current story can develop.

Remember that Kyouko talks about cleaving Witch Sayaka in half and a Soul Gem popping out instead of a Grief Seed. Also remember that Sayaka's human body is sitting safe in a hotel room. It is likely that Kyouko is dead, since she shattered her Gem, but simply shattering a Gem doesn't cause a giant explosion either.

All I'm saying is that it's a common trope in anime for giant explosions to happen at the end of an episode and often result in a different outcome than is implied (heck this happened so much in Mai Otome it was almost funny). Are they dead, and the show just didn't have time to animate the dust clearing? Probably. But it doesn't preclude something different happening either.

The one thing that should be addressed is the flashback Madoka experienced in episode 1. Once that's out of the way, the plot is free to advance in whatever way Urobuchi wants.

I assume you mean the dream? That was the previous loop. If it isn't obvious that something from the other loops is "bleeding" into this one by now....well, that's what we were just discussing before your posts actually.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Normal Madoka and Puella Magi Madoka also appeared side by side on a magazine. What's your point?

That it's when that cover was released that the connection between Homura and the cat theory really took off,something Deconstructor hadn't mentioned.

[Snork]

Remember that Kyouko talks about cleaving Witch Sayaka in half and a Soul Gem popping out instead of a Grief Seed.

alas, there is no solid proof to her ideas so far. Of course, you may say she decided against trying that (or did not intend to anyway - why drag Madoka into the fray and try to negotiate with the witch if your bet is to cleave the witch in half anyway?), but since a lot (if not most) of witches seem to have been Puellae Magi, why haven't there been any Soul Gems left so far? Assuming that the girls have been exclusively encountering evolved familiars so far is a bit too bold.
(on that note, I can imagine a practical magical girl defeating a witch and picking up... a Soul Gem: "Geez, and how am I supposed to purify my Gem with THIS?" )

Also remember that Sayaka's human body is sitting safe in a hotel room.

If there is no happy ending for Sayaka, I really don't envy the hotel staff.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Snork

alas, there is no solid proof to her ideas so far.

Of course. If I implied that, I apologize. It was more like a hypothetical "wouldn't it be funny if it were true" scenario. You'd still have to explain how the gem got back to the body, among other complicated things. Or the characters could shrug and never bring it up again. Either way.

My point was that it technically is an unresolved plot element because we, the audience, never see the "conclusion", and the two characters at the end of the episode don't really offer much conclusiveness either (although I'm sure someone will dig up translations and start yelling at me that I'm wrong...). I also conceded that it probably is true that they are dead and the show just cut the aftermath in the interest of more time for other things.

If there is no happy ending for Sayaka, I really don't envy the hotel staff.

At least Sayaka can get a funeral. I bet that's pretty rare for Magical Girls in this story.

[Snork]

"Missing schoolgirl found dead in a hotel room". A feast for newspapers, a headache for police, a truckload of pain for the family. Also, WMG concerning unrequitted love and possible suicide may arise. Regardless of whether Hitomi was serious about her confession or actually wanted to help Sayaka, this will surely haunt her...

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Snork

"Missing schoolgirl found dead in a hotel room". A feast for newspapers, a headache for police, a truckload of pain for the family. Also, WMG concerning unrequitted love and possible suicide may arise. Regardless of whether Hitomi was serious about her confession or actually wanted to help Sayaka, this will surely haunt her...

Not to mention "unknown cause of death".

The Sayaka case would become one of the biggest mysteries in all of Japan.

Some strange means of suicide due to unrequited love would become a popular theory for cause of death, but since murder couldn't be ruled out, there would likely be an extensive police investigation looking into it.


Realistically, the fallout of Sayaka's death should be pretty huge.

[gsilver]

I have never understood all the cat discussion. I even thought it was a joke until I saw it appearing in thread after thread.

IMO, the intro was to show the differences between an idealized (false) reality and the very real tragedy.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar... and sometimes a cat is just a cat.



Just to be fun/stupid:

The cat is Kyubey after Madoka wishes for him to stop being evil.