AnimeSuki Forums

Daiz · 2009-12-29, 15:36

If you're dealing with 480p material, just do a CRF 16 encode and if it turns out in the 140-260 MB range, you're good to go!

If it's 720p try something like CRF 17-19.

There's really no reason at all to do 2-pass these days unless you really, really want to have exactly the same filesize for everything (which is stupid, since it can hurt the quality of some episodes and might be overkill for other).

Zergrinch · 2009-12-29, 22:55

Hm, interesting proposition you got there, Daiz. All the stuff I read sing praises for two-pass over one-pass encoding. I'm all for saving time, definitely, especially if what you say is true. I shall give it a shot.

Thanks for the feedback, TheFluff and Daiz.

Dark Shikari · 2009-12-30, 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zergrinch

Hm, interesting proposition you got there, Daiz. All the stuff I read sing praises for two-pass over one-pass encoding.

All the stuff you read is written by idiots.

Also, the general rule is that 99% of "encoding guides" consist almost entirely of cargo-cult options added by people who have no idea what they're doing.

Quarkboy · 2009-12-30, 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Shikari

All the stuff you read is written by idiots.

Also, the general rule is that 99% of "encoding guides" consist almost entirely of cargo-cult options added by people who have no idea what they're doing.

I haven't done a 2-pass encode with x264 in a long time.

Then again I'm doing silly things like setting qpmin to 4

Dark Shikari · 2009-12-30, 02:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

I haven't done a 2-pass encode with x264 in a long time.

Then again I'm doing silly things like setting qpmin to 4

Nothing silly about that if you're trying to keep absurdly subtle dither because you won't run gradfun2db on playback

Quarkboy · 2009-12-30, 07:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Shikari

Nothing silly about that if you're trying to keep absurdly subtle dither because you won't run gradfun2db on playback

Actually it's more like CRF = 8 doesn't look much better when qpmin is 10.

Basically it's the answer to the question: "I have a 50 gigabyte uncompressed raw I need to send overseas..."
Well, I could use something lossless but we're still talking 10 gigs or so...

a reasonable CRF like 14 gets me macroblocks in the 20s sometimes and ends up with ~1 gig files, but 2-3 gig is not an issue, so why not preserve what I can with going way lower? Especially when it's going to get re-encoded anyway.

getfresh · 2009-12-31, 07:55

It seems like this thread is starting to go in the standard asuki forum direction again, i.e. encoding and typesetting. Both have numerous threads already. Some variety in the questions asked and discussions engaged in would make the thread more inviting to subbers with specialized skills which are unrelated to Encode/TS. Not trying to pick a fight at all or get anyones nickers in a twist. Simply a suggestion from someone who would be interested to read such a thread. Sorry for posting off topic.

Zergrinch · 2010-01-09, 22:36

I'm trying to create a profile in the patched meGUI to work with what was suggested (CRF instead of two -passes). I'd like to check if the settings are fine:

program --profile high --preset veryslow --tune animation --crf 16 --thread-input --bframes 5 --ref 6 --vbv-maxrate 40000 --output "output" "input"

Dark Shikari · 2010-01-10, 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zergrinch

I'm trying to create a profile in the patched meGUI to work with what was suggested (CRF instead of two -passes). I'd like to check if the settings are fine:

program --profile high --preset veryslow --tune animation --crf 16 --thread-input --bframes 5 --ref 6 --vbv-maxrate 40000 --output "output" "input"

maxrate does nothing if a bufsize isn't specified.

--thread-input is on by default.

--profile high is on by default.

Zergrinch · 2010-01-10, 08:28

Alright, tweaked the advanced settings in the x264 configuration GUI, so the final setting is:

program --preset veryslow --tune animation --crf 16 --bframes 3 --ref 6 --output "output" "input"

For a test 21 minute episode, stripped of the opening, it produces a file that's approximately 100 MB larger than the old settings I used. I guess I can live with 300 MB encodes... not doing two passes really speeds up encoding, and I guess it frees me from making arbitrary decisions about the proper bitrate to use.

Thanks again, folks!

Dark Shikari · 2010-01-10, 14:50

Or just don't use such a low CRF value.

Daiz · 2010-01-10, 14:57

CRF 16 isn't that low with mbtree, you know.

Dark Shikari · 2010-01-10, 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daiz

CRF 16 isn't that low with mbtree, you know.

No, it's still "that low".

jpc · 2010-01-10, 19:35

It depends on the source, but I have seen cases where crf 16 was too high and I had to resort to crf 14 to hit a filesize approaching anywhere near 300 MB

In the case for Zergrinch, it seems that crf 16 is actually a tad too low, so 17 or 18 might be a better option if the filesize is larger than expected

jfs · 2010-01-10, 20:00

Why do you keep talking about file size when it would be more appropriate to talk about perceived quality? ("Can my eyes see any problems during casual viewing?")

Dark Shikari · 2010-01-10, 21:35

If you want to completely ignore quality and instead get a specific filesize, why in the world are you using CRF?

jpc · 2010-01-11, 06:39

I agree, perceived quality is the most important thing where bitrates and filesizes can vary.

But for typical 24 minute anime the bitrates sufficient to achieve "good perceptual quality" tends to fall around the 300 MB mark, although it depends entirely on the source how low the bitrate (thus video filesize) can go before quality becomes undesirable.

I only used the filesize as an initial point of reference, but I should have made myself clearer:
after hitting a desired filesize using crf (typically the filesize expected to be obtained using 2-pass), different crf values should be tried until "perceived quality" falls below a certain threshold (typically the encoders own standards of "minimum perceptual quality").

This way, encodes will have sufficient quality whilst retaining the benefits of using crf (namely smaller bitrates AKA filesizes).

Although the time-consumption required for multiple crf encods in this way suggests 2-pass would be a better option to begin with.

I am not a x264 guru by any stretch of the imagination, but I found that this method usually works for me.

fireshark · 2010-01-15, 01:09

uhhhhhhhhh the benefits of CRF are consistent quality, not smaller filesizes. So you just choose some decent CRF and encode your file already.

CryptWizard · 2010-01-17, 04:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfs

perceived quality? ("Can my eyes see any problems during casual viewing?")

But to some people it's more like "Do my eyes see the file size then think it will be shit".

tz2012 · 2010-01-17, 16:20

hi im trying to put the [gg] sub of Bakemonogatari onto the [qIIq-THORA] blue
ray versions of it and have been using Aegisub and MkvMerge Gui to try and achieve that.

i load the .ass files into Aegisub after i put the [gg] episode of bmg into mkvmerg gui and then only check the subtitles then mux it (so splitting the text from the video/audio).

then i have to go through the episode and retime the subs with the audio because the blue ray versions have extras so the subs get out of time

ive gotten the gg subs to align almost perfectly with the blue rays but now i want to add the [qIIq] typesetting for all the signs because gg didnt bother to sub those.

i can load the qIIq subs into the same aegisub ive been working on with gg subs and the signs will show on the episode once i mux everything but it has the gg formats for the letters which becomes out of place because the words become oversized for some reason.

how do i get my desired version of the blue rays to have gg as dialogue and qIIq as typesetting. keeping the formats of both subtitiles the original formats?

2009-12-29, 15:36	Link #961
Daiz Pioneer in Fansub 2.0 Join Date: Aug 2007	If you're dealing with 480p material, just do a CRF 16 encode and if it turns out in the 140-260 MB range, you're good to go! If it's 720p try something like CRF 17-19. There's really no reason at all to do 2-pass these days unless you really, really want to have exactly the same filesize for everything (which is stupid, since it can hurt the quality of some episodes and might be overkill for other). __________________ "A good user is remembered from his posts, not from his 160px tall animated 'pink flying unicorns' signature picture." --- The Guide for best H.264 playback

2010-01-10, 14:57	Link #972
Daiz Pioneer in Fansub 2.0 Join Date: Aug 2007	CRF 16 isn't that low with mbtree, you know. __________________ "A good user is remembered from his posts, not from his 160px tall animated 'pink flying unicorns' signature picture." --- The Guide for best H.264 playback

2010-01-10, 20:00	Link #975
jfs Aegisub dev Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Age: 39	Why do you keep talking about file size when it would be more appropriate to talk about perceived quality? ("Can my eyes see any problems during casual viewing?") __________________ Aegisub developer [ Forum \| Manual \| Feature requests \| Bug reports \| IRC ] Don't ask for: More VSFilter changes (I won't), karaoke effects, help in PM's

2009-12-29, 22:55	Link #962
Zergrinch Fansubber Join Date: Oct 2008	Hm, interesting proposition you got there, Daiz. All the stuff I read sing praises for two-pass over one-pass encoding. I'm all for saving time, definitely, especially if what you say is true. I shall give it a shot. Thanks for the feedback, TheFluff and Daiz.

2009-12-31, 07:55	Link #967
getfresh done Fansubber Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Yokosuka, JP Age: 43	It seems like this thread is starting to go in the standard asuki forum direction again, i.e. encoding and typesetting. Both have numerous threads already. Some variety in the questions asked and discussions engaged in would make the thread more inviting to subbers with specialized skills which are unrelated to Encode/TS. Not trying to pick a fight at all or get anyones nickers in a twist. Simply a suggestion from someone who would be interested to read such a thread. Sorry for posting off topic.

2010-01-09, 22:36	Link #968
Zergrinch Fansubber Join Date: Oct 2008	I'm trying to create a profile in the patched meGUI to work with what was suggested (CRF instead of two -passes). I'd like to check if the settings are fine: program --profile high --preset veryslow --tune animation --crf 16 --thread-input --bframes 5 --ref 6 --vbv-maxrate 40000 --output "output" "input"

2010-01-10, 08:28	Link #970
Zergrinch Fansubber Join Date: Oct 2008	Alright, tweaked the advanced settings in the x264 configuration GUI, so the final setting is: program --preset veryslow --tune animation --crf 16 --bframes 3 --ref 6 --output "output" "input" For a test 21 minute episode, stripped of the opening, it produces a file that's approximately 100 MB larger than the old settings I used. I guess I can live with 300 MB encodes... not doing two passes really speeds up encoding, and I guess it frees me from making arbitrary decisions about the proper bitrate to use. Thanks again, folks!

2010-01-10, 14:50	Link #971
Dark Shikari x264 Developer Join Date: Feb 2008	Or just don't use such a low CRF value.

2010-01-10, 19:35	Link #974
jpc Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2010	It depends on the source, but I have seen cases where crf 16 was too high and I had to resort to crf 14 to hit a filesize approaching anywhere near 300 MB In the case for Zergrinch, it seems that crf 16 is actually a tad too low, so 17 or 18 might be a better option if the filesize is larger than expected

2010-01-10, 21:35	Link #976
Dark Shikari x264 Developer Join Date: Feb 2008	If you want to completely ignore quality and instead get a specific filesize, why in the world are you using CRF?

2010-01-11, 06:39	Link #977
jpc Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2010	I agree, perceived quality is the most important thing where bitrates and filesizes can vary. But for typical 24 minute anime the bitrates sufficient to achieve "good perceptual quality" tends to fall around the 300 MB mark, although it depends entirely on the source how low the bitrate (thus video filesize) can go before quality becomes undesirable. I only used the filesize as an initial point of reference, but I should have made myself clearer: after hitting a desired filesize using crf (typically the filesize expected to be obtained using 2-pass), different crf values should be tried until "perceived quality" falls below a certain threshold (typically the encoders own standards of "minimum perceptual quality"). This way, encodes will have sufficient quality whilst retaining the benefits of using crf (namely smaller bitrates AKA filesizes). Although the time-consumption required for multiple crf encods in this way suggests 2-pass would be a better option to begin with. I am not a x264 guru by any stretch of the imagination, but I found that this method usually works for me.

2010-01-15, 01:09	Link #978
fireshark CRF Believer Fansubber Join Date: Jan 2007	uhhhhhhhhh the benefits of CRF are consistent quality, not smaller filesizes. So you just choose some decent CRF and encode your file already.

2010-01-17, 16:20	Link #980
tz2012 Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2010	hi im trying to put the [gg] sub of Bakemonogatari onto the [qIIq-THORA] blue ray versions of it and have been using Aegisub and MkvMerge Gui to try and achieve that. i load the .ass files into Aegisub after i put the [gg] episode of bmg into mkvmerg gui and then only check the subtitles then mux it (so splitting the text from the video/audio). then i have to go through the episode and retime the subs with the audio because the blue ray versions have extras so the subs get out of time ive gotten the gg subs to align almost perfectly with the blue rays but now i want to add the [qIIq] typesetting for all the signs because gg didnt bother to sub those. i can load the qIIq subs into the same aegisub ive been working on with gg subs and the signs will show on the episode once i mux everything but it has the gg formats for the letters which becomes out of place because the words become oversized for some reason. how do i get my desired version of the blue rays to have gg as dialogue and qIIq as typesetting. keeping the formats of both subtitiles the original formats?