StarCraft 2

[Kyuu]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

The Core can evolve into an actual Mothership unit, but it requires Fleet Beacon.

Oh. The Mothership unit stays? Sweet. If only I can say the same about carriers... but y'know what? Tempest appears to perform better.

Originally Posted by paladinenvec

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=343635
Unit Stats !

Spoiler:

Tempest – Armored, Mechanical, Massive


Requires Fleet Beacon

Minerals: 300
Gas: 300
Supply: 6
Build Time: 75
Health: 300
Shields: 150
Speed: 2.25
Attack Damage: 49 (66 vs. Massive)
Attack Range: 10
Attack Delay: 6
Upgrade – Gravity Sling:

And thus. Toss gets flying seige tanks. XD

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Hmmm I wonder.

Are those Warhounds strong against seige tanks? I mean it's pretty useless for them to be "Anti-mechanical" even with auto missile attacks if they fall to siege tanks firepower unless they're similar to the protoss' dragoons replacement (Crap forgot their name now).

To me it seems that the Terrans are at a huge disadvantage here.

I mean the Zerg now have a unit that pretty much destroys ranged units and can grab units out of position as well as a siege unit that sends in unlimited attack groups. The burrowing attack seems to make the ultralisks pretty powerful as well.

The Protoss now have a unit that can temporarily shut down an enemy's economy which made a HUGE difference in that game. They also have an air unit that can attack both ground and air with a massive range.

Granted the Terrans now have a tough close combat unit which I think was needed and the Warhound maybe good enough to handle the new touch mechanical units but I'm not sure if they could compete. Maybe they could bring back the reaper and toughen up the battleship?

That and the mines are useless since it's 10 seconds delay which I believe shouldn't be hard for any decent player to break up their mob.

[LoweGear]

Well, the Tempest is more akin to a Guardian that's also capable of hitting air units. And with the range upgrade it has the longest attack range of any unit ingame, whether in SC1 or SC2. I guess that's why it has such low DPS though

Also, the Mothership Core is a nice way to make the Mothership useful: make its functionality available in the early game, then just upgrade it into a fully mobile unit whenever you have the resources and the need to do so. I am wondering about the Oracle's cloak though: does that mean the Mothership proper no longer has that function?

Also, the Widow Mine has an insanely long fuse. Not sure how useful it's going to be with that

[Who]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Hmmm I wonder.

Are those Warhounds strong against seige tanks? I mean it's pretty useless for them to be "Anti-mechanical" even with auto missile attacks if they fall to siege tanks firepower unless they're similar to the protoss' dragoons replacement (Crap forgot their name now).

To me it seems that the Terrans are at a huge disadvantage here.

I mean the Zerg now have a unit that pretty much destroys ranged units and can grab units out of position as well as a siege unit that sends in unlimited attack groups. The burrowing attack seems to make the ultralisks pretty powerful as well.

The Protoss now have a unit that can temporarily shut down an enemy's economy which made a HUGE difference in that game. They also have an air unit that can attack both ground and air with a massive range.

Granted the Terrans now have a tough close combat unit which I think was needed and the Warhound maybe good enough to handle the new touch mechanical units but I'm not sure if they could compete. Maybe they could bring back the reaper and toughen up the battleship?

That and the mines are useless since it's 10 seconds delay which I believe shouldn't be hard for any decent player to break up their mob.

-Warhounds are beefed up Marauders. 23 base damage a shot, not counting in their auto-cast ability, which fires missiles that do 30 damage to mech units with a 6 second cooldown. Their attack range is 7, the same as a non-sieged tank and they have 2.891 movement speed, which is pretty fast for a mech unit barring the Hellion. And it has 220 HP, which surprised me. Facts aside... yeah. The thing will mow down lines of siege tanks, unless you have a critical mass of siege tanks, in which case, you better micro those hounds.

-I am inclined to agree with your assessment that Terran now face an uphill struggle against battle positioning and base management with economy. But we'll have to see. I honestly hope the Oracle gets nerfed, cause it's all too easy to have it waltz into your base and tell your workers to take a break, and then run away for a few minutes, and repeat.

Edit:
Yeah, Mothership no longer has Cloaking Field.

[-Sho-]

I think that maybe Protoss got a bigger advantage = Oracle with their harassment but i'm expecting an expensive costs. Well i don't think that it'll be a great matter for good players as the games really play at early & mid game so easy to counter.

Ow & welcome back "Defiler"

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Who

-Warhounds are beefed up Marauders. 23 base damage a shot, not counting in their auto-cast ability, which fires missiles that do 30 damage to mech units with a 6 second cooldown. Their attack range is 7, the same as a non-sieged tank and they have 2.891 movement speed, which is pretty fast for a mech unit barring the Hellion. And it has 220 HP, which surprised me. Facts aside... yeah. The thing will mow down lines of siege tanks, unless you have a critical mass of siege tanks, in which case, you better micro those hounds.

-I am inclined to agree with your assessment that Terran now face an uphill struggle against battle positioning and base management with economy. But we'll have to see. I honestly hope the Oracle gets nerfed, cause it's all too easy to have it waltz into your base and tell your workers to take a break, and then run away for a few minutes, and repeat.

Edit:
Yeah, Mothership no longer has Cloaking Field.

See that's the thing with siege tanks.

When there's a critical mass then it doesn't matter what you do as it'll eat up anything.

With Zerg they got the Viper and the Protoss have the Tempest. Granted there's the Battlecruiser I suppose but then you have to deal with the vikings.

I see now that the Reapers have been buffed somewhat but are still slow and the BCs now have a speed upgrade (temp) as well which should make them more viable.

The thing with the Tempest though is strange. I mean they could lob shells into your ranks and you can't do anything about it. Air units would be ideal to stop them but the Protoss just needs to have a blob of Stalkers and that'll stop anything from getting through.

[Jaden]

Well, the tempest still needs vision, so you might be fine with just sniping the observers. Also if point defense drones work against the tempest, that could completely shut them down because of the slow refire rate. Still it's a game changing unit and is almost certainly going to be changed/nerfed in some ways still.

[Who]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

See that's the thing with siege tanks.

When there's a critical mass then it doesn't matter what you do as it'll eat up anything.

With Zerg they got the Viper and the Protoss have the Tempest. Granted there's the Battlecruiser I suppose but then you have to deal with the vikings.

I see now that the Reapers have been buffed somewhat but are still slow and the BCs now have a speed upgrade (temp) as well which should make them more viable.

The thing with the Tempest though is strange. I mean they could lob shells into your ranks and you can't do anything about it. Air units would be ideal to stop them but the Protoss just needs to have a blob of Stalkers and that'll stop anything from getting through.

And yet Bio and Biomech still finds ways to counter tank-centric styles, even in WoL. Flank, split, utilize Banshees with Viking/Raven protection, drop onto them, set up Widow mines... there's a whole load of things you can do against even critical mass tanks.

Not sure how I feel about the Battlecruiser's new ability depending on energy. I guess it's up to the player whether they want positioning or a damage ability.

I don't mind the Tempest as much, because it forces the player to position and micro their army compositions. I'd like to use Ravens and PDD to protect my Vikings while they rush to the Tempest(s)/Void Rays/Phoenixes, while Warhounds/Battle Hellions and Widow Mines take care of ground units... in a way, I think TvP in HotS is going to reflect BW TvP closely. I have two gripes about Protoss that rank higher than the Tempest, and that's the Oracle, like I said before, and the ability to refill a caster's energy at will with the Mothership Core.
All in all, I really don't think the cost justifies the Protoss in building more than one or two Tempests. It cuts way into other things, and it's not built to be durable, nor does it have its original splash.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Who

And yet Bio and Biomech still finds ways to counter tank-centric styles, even in WoL. Flank, split, utilize Banshees with Viking/Raven protection, drop onto them, set up Widow mines... there's a whole load of things you can do against even critical mass tanks.

The only reason why I'm able to break siege lines is because I build more vikings with ravens That and take control of the rest of the map in which case it's only a matter of time. Good lord it's been so long since I last played.

On that matter is 30 damage....a tank's HP is 160 and that's not including the protoss heavy mechs. Would that even be worth it?

Not sure how I feel about the Battlecruiser's new ability depending on energy. I guess it's up to the player whether they want positioning or a damage ability.

Probably a balancing thing but I think people would prefer damage over positioning anyways.

A cruiser's energy is 200 right? So that would be 100 for six seconds to close in on target, then once it's 125 then it can fire the yamato gun so it may work. That or fire gun, pull out, and once it reaches 100 then high tail it out of there.

I don't mind the Tempest as much, because it forces the player to position and micro their army compositions. I'd like to use Ravens and PDD to protect my Vikings while they rush to the Tempest(s)/Void Rays/Phoenixes, while Warhounds/Battle Hellions and Widow Mines take care of ground units... in a way, I think TvP in HotS is going to reflect BW TvP closely. I have two gripes about Protoss that rank higher than the Tempest, and that's the Oracle, like I said before, and the ability to refill a caster's energy at will with the Mothership Core.
All in all, I really don't think the cost justifies the Protoss in building more than one or two Tempests. It cuts way into other things, and it's not built to be durable, nor does it have its original splash.

I wouldn't mind playing a more mech style.

But with the mines...it takes up space in the factory and I don't see it getting used much against the Protoss since they have such cheap observers along with the Zerg.

And I wonder if its possible to reposition the mines.

Though it would be a useful defense against mutas in expos. Mutas come in, get nabbed and blow up.

[Nixl]

I think Widow Mines are potentially a huge early/mid game addition to terrans. My concern about the terran changes is that they "seem" to bolster early to mid game and not so much end game, which I thought terrans had the most issue with.

While the PvZ show match was not a good indicator of true balance, Vipers make it seem like expensive units like the Colossi, Immortal, and Oracle are a bad investment to an extent. That is not to say expensive units are useless against Zerg, but rather a complicated endeavor.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by Nixl

I think Widow Mines are potentially a huge early/mid game addition to terrans. My concern about the terran changes is that they "seem" to bolster early to mid game and not so much end game, which I thought terrans had the most issue with.

With mech being viable in HoTs (in fact, it appears bio is gimped due to so many changes and looking like mech (or at least biomech) will be the standard for all matchups. Looking more like BW, where bio was limited to TvZ and even then the current metagame in TvZ is to switch to mech in lategame), terran has a good solid, durable lategame army. In BW, a 3/3 mech army was the strongest composition in the game. The WoL equivalent will be a Zerg who has a 200/200 infestor/broodlord/corrupter comp and no other units. The only problem with Terran I see is the lack of a factory based AA unit. Warhounds initially had it, but it got removed, which means Terrans will need to rely on unupgraded Vikings for AA, unlike in BW where Goliaths pretty much owned any air.

While the PvZ show match was not a good indicator of true balance, Vipers make it seem like expensive units like the Colossi, Immortal, and Oracle are a bad investment to an extent. That is not to say expensive units are useless against Zerg, but rather a complicated endeavor.

Currently in WoL, a lot of protoss get HT's in the lategame for feedbacking infestors (and storming), often killing them outright. I'm guessing that is what protoss will need to do in regards to vipers... feedback their ass and iirc viper's don't have much hp so they'll probably die if they have more than 50% mana banked. Likewise, ghosts will be used to snipe/emp vipers. Hence, it effectively becomes a caster micro war, which imo is very good for the game and for esports.

Feedback is the single primary reason why Terran T3 is unviable. Thors, BCs and Ravens all get owned by feedback pretty hard, and if you have to emp your own units to make them viable, that's just bad design. The other reason being lategame warpgate spam where both Terran and Protoss trade their deathballs, but Protoss is able to warp-in like 20 chargelots immediately. I'm speculating in HoTs that Terran mech like BW will be the strongest unit composition, so it won't die very easily, so I don't think warpgate will be a problem (likely will be needed).

[SoldierOfDarkness]

I wonder how the Warhound will deal with the immortals' shields as well as Zerg.

I mean it's an anti-mech unit but will its missiles be used against Zerg armoured units?

[paladinenvec]

Im seeing the Kespa Invitational in the MLG , i can say that many other games in the tournament have been better but at the very least Flash improved so much in SC2 in such a short time, he has some thing to refine but now he's looking pretty good, at the very least these games are more entertaining than the ones from the SPL.
About HOTS
Hmm i think that mech is looking very strong in the expansion but it's facing the same problem as before that it doesn't have a strong AA in the late game but i think it will be figured when to add vikings, my prediction is that mech will be more common in TvP than in TvZ...

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by paladinenvec

Hmm i think that mech is looking very strong in the expansion but it's facing the same problem as before that it doesn't have a strong AA in the late game but i think it will be figured when to add vikings, my prediction is that mech will be more common in TvP than in TvZ, but anyway i leave to the pro's the compositions and BO's.

One thing that a lot of people and pros have been experimenting with is lategame ravens for PDD + HSM combo which is devastating against clumped up air. We see this occassionaly in lategame TvT air wars, and we are beginning to see it in TvZ when the the zerg goes broodlord/infestor as vikings alone got owned by fungals + corruptors.

However, this "mass raven" to counter air works for current TvZ and TvT because there is always a surplus of gas and a shortage of minerals (as lots of marines are used in those matchups). When you're going for a mech comp, you're always short on gas and ravens costing as much as nearly 2 tanks in gas won't be that viable. Hence, as much as blizzard doesn't want to make a goliath for sc2, a goliath for sc2 is required... or at least reduce the gas cost of ravens and/or make HSMs more effective.

[amasposu]

Never underestimate God. 8D

What I am really happy about is that his style from Broodwar is perfectly transitioned into Starcraft 2. He loves doing bunker rushes and proxy barracks in Broodwar... and he did both against Stork!!! I am sad that Stork got so outplayed but I'm really happy that Flash's gameplay is so good. It is as if I am watching him play Broodwar; his gameplay is always on another level.

His games against Soulkey were almost perfect. It is really as if he was playing Broodwar.

[paladinenvec]

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

One thing that a lot of people and pros have been experimenting with is lategame ravens for PDD + HSM combo which is devastating against clumped up air. We see this occassionaly in lategame TvT air wars, and we are beginning to see it in TvZ when the the zerg goes broodlord/infestor as vikings alone got owned by fungals + corruptors.

However, this "mass raven" to counter air works for current TvZ and TvT because there is always a surplus of gas and a shortage of minerals (as lots of marines are used in those matchups). When you're going for a mech comp, you're always short on gas and ravens costing as much as nearly 2 tanks in gas won't be that viable. Hence, as much as blizzard doesn't want to make a goliath for sc2, a goliath for sc2 is required... or at least reduce the gas cost of ravens and/or make HSMs more effective.

I agree, that's why i said that Mech will not be common on TvZ cause the lack of a good AA and by a good AA i mean something that can deal single target damage to all types of Air Units( not only light) from a safe siege position, goliath would be a good example but i think that Blizzard want us Terrans to use Ravens for some reason but it's not possible if you go mech due to the gas intensive nature of the tech, Raven transition is difficult even if you go Bio-tank but i think that Bomber almost get it, you can check on Day[9] his game VS Ostojy even BC's were used in that game, its a long game...anyway other than the mine i don't see the new terran units to be used as a standard vs zerg, well i can be wrong it's too early to tell since is not even beta and many changes can be made in the long run.

[Desu]

Really disappointed to see proxy rax in showmatches.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by paladinenvec

I agree, that's why i said that Mech will not be common on TvZ cause the lack of a good AA and by a good AA i mean something that can deal single target damage to all types of Air Units( not only light) from a safe siege position, goliath would be a good example but i think that Blizzard want us Terrans to use Ravens for some reason but it's not possible if you go mech due to the gas intensive nature of the tech, Raven transition is difficult even if you go Bio-tank but i think that Bomber almost get it, you can check on Day[9] his game VS Ostojy even BC's were used in that game, its a long game...anyway other than the mine i don't see the new terran units to be used as a standard vs zerg, well i can be wrong it's too early to tell since is not even beta and many changes can be made in the long run.

Actually, it's a natural transition. During the mid to mid-late game, you will be spending all your gas on 2 factory siege tanks and inf wep/arm and vehicle wep upgrades, and until you get 3/3 inf and 3/0 vehicle, you will be spending your gas well. It's after that you get a stockpile.

It's very common for a Terran player in TvT or TvZ to stockpile 2k+ gas whilst constantly being short on ravens past the 20+ min mark, as this is when you're 3/3 and 3/0 upgrades would have finished. This is when you place down 2-3 extra starports and start cranking out ravens and the result is a nice spread of mineral (via 8+ rax reactor marines) and gas usage (siege tanks, vikings, ravens).

Now this can't be done in TvP since feedback renders ravens useless and is the primary reason why BCs, Thors and Ravens are pointless. Come HoTs, when you are playing likely going to playing mech, this will all change.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

Also, the Widow Mine has an insanely long fuse. Not sure how useful it's going to be with that

The only thing you can do to stop an attached Widow mine exploding is to kill the unit yourself. So that means as long as the unit being attached to is more expensive than the mine, the mine wins out. We are not sure, but I think it bypasses Hardened Shields as it ignores Armour values, since it only does fixed damage.

Protoss is going to have trouble with that. Trading units with the mine is not favourable.

[Clarste]

Well, the obvious solution is to not get hit by mines in the first place. It's probably possible to kill them before they attach with ranged units. And while this is much less practical in any real-game situation, you could even send Hallucinations through the minefield first so they waste all their damage on the fake units or something like that.