StarCraft 2

[Nixl]

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

With mech being viable in HoTs (in fact, it appears bio is gimped due to so many changes and looking like mech (or at least biomech) will be the standard for all matchups. Looking more like BW, where bio was limited to TvZ and even then the current metagame in TvZ is to switch to mech in lategame), terran has a good solid, durable lategame army. In BW, a 3/3 mech army was the strongest composition in the game. The WoL equivalent will be a Zerg who has a 200/200 infestor/broodlord/corrupter comp and no other units. The only problem with Terran I see is the lack of a factory based AA unit. Warhounds initially had it, but it got removed, which means Terrans will need to rely on unupgraded Vikings for AA, unlike in BW where Goliaths pretty much owned any air.



Currently in WoL, a lot of protoss get HT's in the lategame for feedbacking infestors (and storming), often killing them outright. I'm guessing that is what protoss will need to do in regards to vipers... feedback their ass and iirc viper's don't have much hp so they'll probably die if they have more than 50% mana banked. Likewise, ghosts will be used to snipe/emp vipers. Hence, it effectively becomes a caster micro war, which imo is very good for the game and for esports.

Feedback is the single primary reason why Terran T3 is unviable. Thors, BCs and Ravens all get owned by feedback pretty hard, and if you have to emp your own units to make them viable, that's just bad design. The other reason being lategame warpgate spam where both Terran and Protoss trade their deathballs, but Protoss is able to warp-in like 20 chargelots immediately. I'm speculating in HoTs that Terran mech like BW will be the strongest unit composition, so it won't die very easily, so I don't think warpgate will be a problem (likely will be needed).

Ty for the response,

Initially I thought toss would got HT heavy for storms in response to Viper and Swarm Host (storm can still killed burrowed units?), but I totally forgot about Feedback lol. Knowing that I would say Protoss have a fair response to Zerg at the moment. Oracle for cloak and HT for Feedback against Overseers and Vipers, etc. Time (or beta) will tell.

As for Terran as much as I like the Widow Mine, I feel like there will be some nasty contains using the mines offensively to the point that they will be nerfed. I know we need beta before throwing OP/UP around, but I just cannot shake the feeling. This will sound stupid, but I can see someone doing a proxy factory against Zerg and preventing an expansion or even sniping queens/drones. As soon as it burrows, it can attach to anything. They will complain on the forum and it will be nerfed.

I also wonder how many mines can fit onto a medivac. Mine drops into the mineral lines would be interesting.

Slightly off topic, the Reaper change is underwhelming imo. It still will not be used with a 40 second build time and no speed upgrade (removed?). Someone could probably tech to factory and get much more out of a Widow mine both offensively and defensively. The Reaper just pales in comparison to the Widow Mine, hell most do.

[Who]

Originally Posted by Nixl

Ty for the response,

Initially I thought toss would got HT heavy for storms in response to Viper and Swarm Host (storm can still killed burrowed units?), but I totally forgot about Feedback lol. Knowing that I would say Protoss have a fair response to Zerg at the moment. Oracle for cloak and HT for Feedback against Overseers and Vipers, etc. Time (or beta) will tell.

As for Terran as much as I like the Widow Mine, I feel like there will be some nasty contains using the mines offensively to the point that they will be nerfed. I know we need beta before throwing OP/UP around, but I just cannot shake the feeling. This will sound stupid, but I can see someone doing a proxy factory against Zerg and preventing an expansion or even sniping queens/drones. As soon as it burrows, it can attach to anything. They will complain on the forum and it will be nerfed.

I also wonder how many mines can fit onto a medivac. Mine drops into the mineral lines would be interesting.

Slightly off topic, the Reaper change is underwhelming imo. It still will not be used with a 40 second build time and no speed upgrade (removed?). Someone could probably tech to factory and get much more out of a Widow mine both offensively and defensively. The Reaper just pales in comparison to the Widow Mine, hell most do.

Speaking of throwing OP/UP around... how about that Viper Abduct spell? Looks pretty good against tanks/thors.

In order to prevent abuse with mines, all Blizzard has to do is really prevent them from being loaded onto Medivacs. Zerg has extremely good, cost-efficient scouting, so if they can't find a proxy factory and wall off in time, well... I don't know what to tell you.

[Flying Dagger]

I don't think the mines will be used as how blizzard wanted it to be used (map control/zoning).

If say, you put the mine in the middle of no where: an army walk past and it latches onto something. Enemy just press A and kill off that unit.

However, if they are deployed during an engagement vs an enemy with no detection, sniping off your own unit during a battle may be a tide changer. Not to mention a terran can always use mines to cover their retreat. As soon as the mines are popped, marauder slow would keep things nice and tight together.

The mines may be good anti-drop. If the mine latches itself onto the medivacs it would make drops rather cost ineffective.

They are just glorified baneling landmines.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Clarste

Well, the obvious solution is to not get hit by mines in the first place. It's probably possible to kill them before they attach with ranged units. And while this is much less practical in any real-game situation, you could even send Hallucinations through the minefield first so they waste all their damage on the fake units or something like that.

The issue is that the mine itself is ranged. So you would need siege units to take it out safely. And that assumes you remembered detection.

[Nixl]

Originally Posted by Who

Speaking of throwing OP/UP around... how about that Viper Abduct spell? Looks pretty good against tanks/thors.

In order to prevent abuse with mines, all Blizzard has to do is really prevent them from being loaded onto Medivacs. Zerg has extremely good, cost-efficient scouting, so if they can't find a proxy factory and wall off in time, well... I don't know what to tell you.

I think the issue is, even if Zerg finds the proxy how do they prevent wave after wave of Widow Mines in early game? To me, the Widow Mine is a perfect way to contain/delay a natural expansion. Time will tell.


As for Abduct, I think it is a good spell actually, what may put it over the top is consume. Consume this time (as opposed to BW) converts the health of buildings into energy. I do not know how much consume returns, but for the moment I do not think it has a cooldown or buildings that it cannot use consume on.

In my mind, all one has to do is to bring uprooted Spine Crawlers along with the push so that Vipers can use consume in the middle of a battle. If Zerg can do that and thus continuously use Abduct, I think there potentially could be a problem. Again, time or...beta will tell. If it does prove to be a problem all Blizz has to do is make it so consume cannot be used on Spine Crawlers.

All in all, I think terran will just use ghosts or vikings in order to protect the tank line.

[Who]

Originally Posted by Nixl

I think the issue is, even if Zerg finds the proxy how do they prevent wave after wave of Widow Mines in early game? To me, the Widow Mine is a perfect way to contain/delay a natural expansion. Time will tell.


As for Abduct, I think it is a good spell actually, what may put it over the top is consume. Consume this time (as opposed to BW) converts the health of buildings into energy. I do not know how much consume returns, but for the moment I do not think it has a cooldown or buildings that it cannot use consume on.

In my mind, all one has to do is to bring uprooted Spine Crawlers along with the push so that Vipers can use consume in the middle of a battle. If Zerg can do that and thus continuously use Abduct, I think there potentially could be a problem. Again, time or...beta will tell. If it does prove to be a problem all Blizz has to do is make it so consume cannot be used on Spine Crawlers.

All in all, I think terran will just use ghosts or vikings in order to protect the tank line.

I mentioned Vipers and Abduct only cause you mentioned 'throwing around', and I guess only I saw what I did there.

[Nixl]

Awwww man that was a good one too. Totally missed it lol.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Flying Dagger

I don't think the mines will be used as how blizzard wanted it to be used (map control/zoning).

If say, you put the mine in the middle of no where: an army walk past and it latches onto something. Enemy just press A and kill off that unit.

However, if they are deployed during an engagement vs an enemy with no detection, sniping off your own unit during a battle may be a tide changer. Not to mention a terran can always use mines to cover their retreat. As soon as the mines are popped, marauder slow would keep things nice and tight together.

Isn't that how they were used in the battle reports?

The reaper attacked and lured the Queens into an area with mines and was destroyed.

I don't see how that's any different than banelings being used in the same manner.

There were also cases during a battle where the Terran just threw his mines in and once they dug in they blew up a large portion of the Zerg army which in itself is a high risk.

The mines may be good anti-drop. If the mine latches itself onto the medivacs it would make drops rather cost ineffective.

They are just glorified baneling landmines.

I don't think Blizzard would mind that. It would mean Terrans now have an effective way to shut or at least restrict mass mutas. Zerg comes in with mass mutas and the mines would just latch on, forcing them to break apart if the player is fast enough. That or it'll take several mutas out of the fight and make it easier to finish off the rest.

[Alaya]

Originally Posted by Desu

Really disappointed to see proxy rax in showmatches.

Well, the game he all-in half of Flash's keyboard is not working, and the games he proxy rax were on the map that is not on the Proleague.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

The only reason why I'm able to break siege lines is because I build more vikings with ravens That and take control of the rest of the map in which case it's only a matter of time. Good lord it's been so long since I last played.

On that matter is 30 damage....a tank's HP is 160 and that's not including the protoss heavy mechs. Would that even be worth it?

Right now bio and biomech play dominates the TvT match up, where they abuse tank lack of mobility to the fullest. Constant dropping, forcing tanks to unsiege and then snipe them. It's even arguable that tank right now is too weak (at least in Teamliquid that's the majority of opinions).

I wouldn't mind playing a more mech style.

But with the mines...it takes up space in the factory and I don't see it getting used much against the Protoss since they have such cheap observers along with the Zerg.

And I wonder if its possible to reposition the mines.

Though it would be a useful defense against mutas in expos. Mutas come in, get nabbed and blow up.

Factory has a nickname of "Terran's flying destructible rock" so I don't see any problem with building from a factory. And you can even reactored them out.

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

With mech being viable in HoTs (in fact, it appears bio is gimped due to so many changes and looking like mech (or at least biomech) will be the standard for all matchups. Looking more like BW, where bio was limited to TvZ and even then the current metagame in TvZ is to switch to mech in lategame), terran has a good solid, durable lategame army. In BW, a 3/3 mech army was the strongest composition in the game. The WoL equivalent will be a Zerg who has a 200/200 infestor/broodlord/corrupter comp and no other units. The only problem with Terran I see is the lack of a factory based AA unit. Warhounds initially had it, but it got removed, which means Terrans will need to rely on unupgraded Vikings for AA, unlike in BW where Goliaths pretty much owned any air.

I don't really think bio is getting gimped that much though. With the addition of mine, it can really help in engagement in late game pretty well. And I don't think warhound will be out in beta at this build, because it is very awfully designed (read: 1-a unit) right now and look more like a placeholder build than an actual unit.

Originally Posted by Flying Dagger

I don't think the mines will be used as how blizzard wanted it to be used (map control/zoning).

If say, you put the mine in the middle of no where: an army walk past and it latches onto something. Enemy just press A and kill off that unit.

However, if they are deployed during an engagement vs an enemy with no detection, sniping off your own unit during a battle may be a tide changer. Not to mention a terran can always use mines to cover their retreat. As soon as the mines are popped, marauder slow would keep things nice and tight together.

The mines may be good anti-drop. If the mine latches itself onto the medivacs it would make drops rather cost ineffective.

They are just glorified baneling landmines.

Baneling landmines is very similar to BW's spider mines so I don't think the design of Widow Mine is that much of a problem. They can still be used for zone control because it would make the opponent pay more attention to the run-by unit more than he would like to (instead of 1-a, he needs to micro unit one by one).

Also, it forces opponents to have detection for every engagement. And that could mean less immortal, or less Infestor, which is quite big of a deal.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Alaya

Finally!!!

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/536...-5_7_2012#blog

Oh I came across this just now and since you guys must miss me...

Congrats, Blizz, you are finally going to provide features (some that were standard for the fucking predecessor) that should have been at release! I would be happy that their brain cells actually started firing most likely after a brief unconsciousness from all that coke they've been snorting, had I not lost interest a year ago.... or have to pay 60 more bucks twice.

I might just consider buying this, though it's all the hands of the Diablo team atm. At least that game occasionally gives me a shiny coin for torturing me.

And the online replays are lol. I remember when they promised it for Warcraft III...

[Eisdrache]

Originally Posted by Nixl

I think the issue is, even if Zerg finds the proxy how do they prevent wave after wave of Widow Mines in early game? To me, the Widow Mine is a perfect way to contain/delay a natural expansion. Time will tell.

Depending on the damage of a mine you might simply build the hatch before it blows up. By the way is their explosion AoE or single target? Friendly fire? And do they jump on your own units? Since it would be retarded to use them as an anti-drop measure only to have the enemy run the unit with the mine into your worker line.

[Who]

Originally Posted by Eisdrache

Depending on the damage of a mine you might simply build the hatch before it blows up. By the way is their explosion AoE or single target? Friendly fire? And do they jump on your own units? Since it would be retarded to use them as an anti-drop measure only to have the enemy run the unit with the mine into your worker line.

Explosion is AoE. No word yet on friendly fire; they're debating it.

And if your opponent has the ability to use the mine to their advantage like that... good on them, in my opinion. This game needs every little thing possible to reward players with a higher skill cap. Mines shouldn't be your only base/expansion defense; there needs to be a bunker/turret/crawler/cannon there to assist.

What I personally feel is retarded is how much warning the mine gives before it goes off. Countdown timer graphics that are bigger than a marine, 10 seconds... only way I feel that it'll possibly score kills is if your opponent isn't babysitting their army or worker lines.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Eisdrache

Depending on the damage of a mine you might simply build the hatch before it blows up. By the way is their explosion AoE or single target? Friendly fire? And do they jump on your own units? Since it would be retarded to use them as an anti-drop measure only to have the enemy run the unit with the mine into your worker line.

I don't think it has friendly fire since during the battle report the terran if he failed the push would fall back with the Zerg chasing after him. In that scenario the widow mines jumped on them and destroyed them without hurting the Terran.

Just like why banelings don't cause friendly fire widow mines shouldn't either. Especially with the 10 second delay....

[Archon_Wing]

So I wanted to log on and play a game against the AI, and maybe the campaign for shits and giggles, but dear lord the performance is awful all of a sudden, even after lowering the graphics settings. >.> Any word on this?

I also see the UI has changed. Now it just seems even more cluttered (I have to click Starcraft before I can do anything useful) but at least the career profile thing is cute.

[Who]

1.5 broke a lot of things. I refuse to practice custom maps now, cause a lot of things came back in, like Flux Vanes and Khaydarin Amulet.

[Archon_Wing]

What?

Giev 1 supply roaches imo. :3

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

What?

Giev 1 supply roaches imo. :3

You know what's worse than 1 supply roaches? 60s warpgate research in beta compared to the 160s we have now (was 140s during the early days of release). Ye!

EDIT: Man this patch is bulls***. It's gonna take me a whole day to dl this on my sht**y Australian internet connection and I'm up to rostered on the WA proleague team tommorow...

[paladinenvec]

I don't have problems with the patch :x! Btw Jinro retires noooooooo, well it was expected, he was not playing well since 1 year ago D:!

[Flying Dagger]

Taeja: 22-2 in IPL TAC...

Spoiler for ipl:

All killing IM in the 1st set of BO9... wow

[Who]

Based Taeja is based.