To Aru Kagaku no Railgun S - Episode 23 Discussion / Poll

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by SilverTalon

Why do we need to assume that? All the evidence supports that their backing is from the influence and wealth accumulated by their own company (which I'd say is implied to be founded by 5 'geniuses' so they could have conceivably made a huge sum of money patenting inventions or whatever). There is absolutely no evidence anywhere suggesting some one higher up than STUDY corporation is involved. Also their only clout so far was over anti skill and was explained by STUDY making their equipment. If they really had that much clout, ITEM would not have gone back after them.

Well, my point was that the amount of wealth used to finance their activities had a conceivable source, so that works out too, assuming they could stockpile that much financial resources within the span of single year. Though, I'd like you to explain a bit clearer as to how being in charge of providing the equipment for Anti-Skill give them the power to decide what to investigate and not.

[Ilidsor]

Originally Posted by SilverTalon

Why do we need to assume that? All the evidence supports that their backing is from the influence and wealth accumulated by their own company (which I'd say is implied to be founded by 5 'geniuses' so they could have conceivably made a huge sum of money patenting inventions or whatever). There is absolutely no evidence anywhere suggesting some one higher up than STUDY corporation is involved. Also their only clout so far was over anti skill and was explained by STUDY making their equipment. If they really had that much clout, ITEM would not have gone back after them.

They don't necessarily need a sponsor to do the experiments either because no one knows about them. Level 6 Shift needed backing because all the big shots in the city knew it was going on. Thats not the same as some kids secretly cooking something up in their basement.

No we already know that they're not that wealthy. We saw one of their press conferences/speeches. There was like 10 people there. If they were that rich that place would have been packed.

I think you guys are seriously underestimating how much it would cost to be Anti-Skills sole weapons provider. Anti-Skill isn't just the police force, it's also the army. The most tehnogically advanced army in the world. It's been stated several times that some of their stuff cost billions of yen each.

[Jan-Poo]

Still if we suppose that they gained that much wealth through their own efforts only how could they still think that their geniuses aren't recognized?

They must have sold quite a lot of profitable patents to be able to reach that level, the 20 thousand power suits alone must cost the equivalent of a small nation.

So am I supposed to conclude that they are so pissed because one of their projects got dismissed when several others got rewarded with a king's ransom?

[Marcus H.]

No we already know that they're not that wealthy. We saw one of their press conferences/speeches. There was like 10 people there. If they were that rich that place would have been packed.

Wealth =/= fame. That's what they're so pissed about.
They're rich, but they don't have the fame espers get.

[Ilidsor]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Wealth =/= fame. That's what they're so pissed about.
They're rich, but they don't have the fame espers get.

No if you make that much money you get attention. If you make enough money that you can supply an entire army then you get a lot of attention. That's how the world works. Subway (random example) could call a press conference or a speech and get more than 10 people to come.

[Triple_R]

As critical as I've been of Aritomi and friends, their motivation is one aspect to them that I actually think is well-conceived. Like Marcus H. states, it's not wealth and influence that they crave, it's fame.


Here's an analogy that might work with some people here (especially Americans, I would imagine).

Think of Academy City as a really big high school. Think of Espers as the "jocks" of that high school. They're the high school football stars that seemingly everybody loves and cheers on. Mikoto is like the star Quarterback of a high school championship football team. The other Level 5 espers are similarly star players on that championship football team.

Now, think of Aritomi and his allies as the "nerds" of this high school. They pull off amazing science projects, do extremely well academically, do have some pull with the faculty, and they do get some awards. But at the end of the day, most people don't really care about them. What fame they have is absolutely nothing compared to that of the "jocks".

This is infuriating to Aritomi. It gives him and his allies a nasty inferiority complex that pushes them forward into doing harmful and destructive things.


One of the main problems with Aritomi is that he's too understated. He's not as emotional about this as he probably should be, in order to get a good sense of overwhelming jealousy coming from him. They're playing Aritomi as this really self-satisfied smug smart guy. They should be playing him as a bit snarkier, a bit angrier, much more emotional, a guy desperately trying to prove his worth. Instead, he comes off as mildly annoyed and calmly cynical, which is probably why a motivation that seems fine to me on paper isn't getting through well to some viewers.

[SilverTalon]

Originally Posted by Qilin

Well, my point was that the amount of wealth used to finance their activities had a conceivable source, so that works out too, assuming they could stockpile that much financial resources within the span of single year. Though, I'd like you to explain a bit clearer as to how being in charge of providing the equipment for Anti-Skill give them the power to decide what to investigate and not.

We don't really know how much wealth they had to start with, so they could have been independently wealthy, I mean lots of people in AC have crap loads of money. It shouldn't have given them that kind of influence which is another problem with this arc, but Yomikawa specifically indicated that was the issue. In fact specifying the reason she got in trouble and anti skill wasn't going to get involved was the sole purpose of that scene.

Originally Posted by Ilidsor

No if you make that much money you get attention. If you make enough money that you can supply an entire army then you get a lot of attention. That's how the world works. Subway (random example) could call a press conference or a speech and get more than 10 people to come.

Do you? Can you name the people with the top 100 net worth? I can't. I can name some of them that you actually hear about on tv sure, but theres lots of ludicrously wealthy people I don't know a thing about.

Subway is a well publicized brand that is well known to the average people, so yes an announcement by them would get publicity. How about some big mutual fund company? Now if it is a scandal type thing sure, but in general no one would care.

[Ilidsor]

Originally Posted by SilverTalon

Do you? Can you name the people with the top 100 net worth? I can't. I can name some of them that you actually hear about on tv sure, but theres lots of ludicrously wealthy people I don't know a thing about.

Subway is a well publicized brand that is well known to the average people, so yes an announcement by them would get publicity. How about some big mutual fund company? Now if it is a scandal type thing sure, but in general no one would care.

I'm not claiming they would be household names but when companies that big have public events reporters show up. Newspaper reporters, television reporters, etc. They wouldn't be talking to just ten high school students.

Hell if they have a company that big where the hell are their employees?

[SilverTalon]

Well, that also probably depends on the event. Unless I missed it, we have no idea what the purpose of that event he was speaking at was. I didn't see STUDY corp logo everywhere, so it could even be just like a guest speaker gig as he didn't seem to be presenting actually important information and more just arguing a point.

And that is a good question, but they must have some if they are producing most of AS's equipment as that is a ton of stuff...

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by SilverTalon

I mean lots of people in AC have crap loads of money. It shouldn't have given them that kind of influence which is another problem with this arc, but Yomikawa specifically indicated that was the issue. In fact specifying the reason she got in trouble and anti skill wasn't going to get involved was the sole purpose of that scene.

Yes, but that is an assumption. If a huge pile of wealth they conveniently had access to since before this whole debacle came to be was the sole reason for their power over Anti-Skill, I would agree with you. However, there is nothing that points particularly in that direction as of yet. There might still be some larger group behind them, or the issue might not even be addressed at all.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Hiss13

One, it's more like character induced stupidity than plot induced stupidity. Accelerator, for probably the first time in his life, was hit by a Level 0 in the face multiple times (note how he reacted when he was first hit and first saw his own blood), lost his big finishing move, and then saw the guy he threw into a wind turbine standing up. Combine that with the fact that Accelerator is not exactly the poster boy for sanity at this point in time (understatement ) and you can see why he just decided to charge at him. He snapped and lost any and all form of coherent, logical, tactical thought. That's character induced stupidity, not plot induced stupidity. That is far more acceptable (and if anything, better for character development).

No sorry, but the scene doesn't suggest he's lost his sanity. He's stressed but he's still making clear thoughts. He just decided to be an idiot. That's all. Because the plot needed him to lose.

Also, with regards to Mikoto's presence--Mikoto and the Sisters never made a direct move against Accelerator. They just did something to the environment but they never attacked Accelerator directly after Touma came into the picture.

I think if you found out that the strongest Level 5 was supposedly defeated by a Level 0, then you'd take into account the presence of another level 5 and 10000 sisters if you knew they were there.

Originally Posted by leukrota

Touma alone was supposed to defeat Accelerator, that was the plan (and I thought it was clearly stated). But when he was about to be wiped out Mikoto and Sisters helped in order to save him. It wasn't the plan, but they had no option.

And? I wasn't questioning any of that...

BTW, AC did see all that happened (at least Aleister did), the fact that it isn't mentioned here doesn't mean they didn't.

It doesn't mean they have either. Fanwanking away plot holes doesn't make them any better. And honestly, if they have seen everything then that just raises more questions.

Anyway, afterwards Touma ask about the result, not being sure if the experiments had stopped, but they did. Touma and CO don't really know why, but what can they do about it? In fact, if Mikoto knew the real reasons then she wouldn't have much to worry about during Index's Remnant arc.

That doesn't change the fact that that the whole resolution depended on an incredibly ambiguous and convenient plot device.

Originally Posted by SilverTalon

No, the calling off of the experiment makes sense even with the interference. Touma's plan was to defeat Accel alone and prove he wasn't the strongest, but really as Mikoto explained with her stupid plan, all they needed to do was interfere enough so that they would have to recalculate the experiment which was impossible. Accel losing sounds like a good reason to have to recalculate everything.

No, it's explained clearly in the novels:

Spoiler for Novel Comparison:

"Even if another Level 5 defeated Accelerator, the researchers would not be convinced that he was actually weak."


"Logically, she knew that she could not do anything by heading there. In fact, there was a chance she would destroy the solution that the boy had finally obtained. Because of that, staying there was the proper choice. She knew that. Anyone could figure that out logically."

"In Kamijou’s plan, he had to defeat Accelerator in order to fool the researchers. Once Mikoto interfered, that plan would fail."

What you think makes sense is not what the exposition is telling us. Mikoto's plan relied on her dying quickly than initially thought. But she hadn't.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Haak

No sorry, but the scene doesn't suggest he's lost his sanity.

We see him very atypically backing away in fear from Touma, so shocked was he by Touma even being able to stand.

Is Accelerator downright insane at this moment? No.

Is Accelerator completely shocked and hence not thinking as clearly as normal? Yes, he is.

There is nothing about Touma's victory over Accelerator that involves PIS or even CIS. It's a classic case of the main antagonist underestimating his rival, and then letting his emotions undermine his thinking due to the understandable shock of realizing "Wow, this guy is actually a serious threat to me!" And at least with Accelerator, he had extremely good reason to underestimate this Level 0 Touma, which is why it's not even CIS.

[leukrota]

Originally Posted by Haak

And? I wasn't questioning any of that...

It doesn't mean they have either. Fanwanking away plot holes doesn't make them any better. And honestly, if they have seen everything then that just raises more questions.

That doesn't change the fact that that the whole resolution depended on an incredibly ambiguous and convenient plot device.

Ad hominem, nice, great argument, of course you're right if you use insults. /sarcasm

For starters, I'm correcting your twisting the facts to imply that they expected the Sister's actions would go unnoticed. It didn't, their plan failed to work the way they hoped and Mikoto knew it from the moment she intervened. We weren't told here, but it isn't even necessary. What we did see was the change in Accelerator, it's subtle, but it's there. That change is enough to stop the experiment since he can't be forced into it, regardless of Aleister's plan.

So, ultimately what is it? a convenient plot device or a plot hole? it isn't both, at least review your statements before posting to make sure they don't contradict each other.


... But really... fanwanking /facepalm

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

We see him very atypically backing away in fear from Touma, so shocked was he by Touma even being able to stand.

Is Accelerator downright insane at this moment? No.

Is Accelerator completely shocked and hence not thinking as clearly as normal? Yes, he is.

There is nothing about Touma's victory over Accelerator that involves PIS or even CIS. It's a classic case of the main antagonist underestimating his rival, and then letting his emotions undermine his thinking due to the understandable shock of realizing "Wow, this guy is actually a serious threat to me!" And at least with Accelerator, he had extremely good reason to underestimate this Level 0 Touma, which is why it's not even CIS.

If Accelerator was underestimating him then why would he back away from him in fear? He actually rationalised that all he needed to do was touch him and he'd be dead. It seemed to me like he was rationalising it rather than let his emotions run his actions.

Originally Posted by Ilidsor

Wait, if you've read the novels how do you not know that...

Because I haven't read that far. And please don't post novel spoilers in anime threads.

Originally Posted by leukrota

Ad hominem, nice, great argument, of course you're right if you use insults. /sarcasm

That wasn't an ad hominem:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FanWank

Even if it was intended as an insult, it still wouldn't have been an ad hominem. That was my mistake though. I'll link next time.

For starters, I'm correcting your twisting the facts to imply that they expected the Sister's actions would go unnoticed. It didn't, their plan failed to work the way they hoped and Mikoto knew it from the moment she intervened. We weren't told here, but it isn't even necessary. What we did see was the change in Accelerator, it's subtle, but it's there. That change is enough to stop the experiment since he can't be forced into it, regardless of Aleister's plan.

For starters you never once mentioned Accelarator in your last post and this is an entirely new point you're making. At least be honest.

Secondly, it's pretty much established that Mikoto and Touma believed they stopped the plan due to Accelerator's defeat. They don't know about Accelerator's switch. They can't read minds. They think their plan worked because there's nothing to suggest they'd believe it would be due to anything else.

Thirdly, that subtle hint would definitely require a lot more follow up considering how much the narrative relies on it. Really that's just as ambiguous as the observer plot device.

Fourthly, I'm not convinced that's the reason anyway. That's an Index anime spoiler though, so I can't say any more but I'm now even more convinced you're fanwanking it.

So, ultimately what is it? a convenient plot device or a plot hole? it isn't both, at least review your statements before posting to make sure they don't contradict each other.

Very ambiguous plot devices are the same as plot holes in my view.

[Ilidsor]

Originally Posted by Haak

Because I haven't read that far. And please don't post novel spoilers in anime threads.

That would be why I used the spoiler tag. Regardless now you know.

This is really off topic so I'm going to take this to the proper episode thread (episode 16 right?) so we don't all get banned.

[Haak]

You'd get banned anyway. You can't post spoilers at all, even under spoiler tags. You need to delete your post.

And in any case, the spoiler doesn't change anything anyway.

[Solace]

Novel discussion does not belong here, you guys know that. Don't continue that part of the conversation here.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Haak

If Accelerator was underestimating him then why would he back away from him in fear?

First he underestimated him, then he backed away from him in fear (after he was hit with the sudden realization of "Who the hell is this guy?! Why won't he stay down?! He should be finished. This guy is a serious challenge to me.")

Villain thinks his rival is nothing to get worked up about, and so puts in just enough effort to finish him. Surprised when his rival survives that. Further surprised when his rival actually makes him feel pain. Greatly surprised when his rival survives a more serious attack.

Accelerator then briefly backs away from Touma. You can see the fear in his eyes. You can then see Accelerator become disgusted with himself due to that fear. Accelerator is now angry, both at Touma and himself. He then launches a wild attack at Touma, which Touma counters resulting in his final punch and victory over Accelerator.

I don't see any problem here.

(Understandable) underestimation leads into shock and awe over rival still standing, which in turn leads into Accelerator being angry with both himself and his rival, which in turn leads into Accelerator launching a leaping physical attack when perhaps he'd have been better off using his powers from a distance. Once a character becomes emotionally unhinged, I no longer expect that character to make the shrewdest combat decisions in the world.

[leukrota]

Originally Posted by Haak

That wasn't an ad hominem:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FanWank

Even if it was intended as an insult, it still wouldn't have been an ad hominem. That was my mistake though. I'll link next time.

I see, well, I'm not using anything that can't be rationally concluded from the novels, so it's not fan wank. It's pretty much confirmed in later volumes, but it doesn't contradict the first ones.

Originally Posted by Haak

For starters you never once mentioned Accelarator in your last post and this is an entirely new point you're making. At least be honest.

I'm expanding on the reason why it stopped. I left it vague before, but later made realize that wasn't enough.

Originally Posted by Haak

Secondly, it's pretty much established that Mikoto and Touma believed they stopped the plan due to Accelerator's defeat. They don't know about Accelerator's switch. They can't read minds. They think their plan worked because there's nothing to suggest they'd believe it would be due to anything else.

No it's not, they never said or did something to imply that.

And as I said before, the don't know why it stopped, only that it did. Their undisputable inhability to read minds is irrelevant.

Though in the case I'm wrong and they did believe what you said, it's still not a plot hole, just the characters being naive.

Originally Posted by Haak

Thirdly, that subtle hint would definitely require a lot more follow up considering how much the narrative relies on it. Really that's just as ambiguous as the observer plot device.

News flash: Not all narratives require to disclose everything to the reader/viewer, or to spoon feed the conclusions.

Originally Posted by Haak

Fourthly, I'm not convinced that's the reason anyway. That's an Index anime spoiler though, so I can't say any more but I'm now even more convinced you're fanwanking it.

I honestly don't care about convincing you, as I'm convinced you have too much pride to ever make a concession.

I'll just explain my points as best as I can and let others judge if they agree or not... I'll stop when I find it meaningless to continue.

[relentlessflame]

If the thing you're thinking to post next in this thread isn't clearly and specifically related to Railgun S Episode 23, as it says in the thread title, stop now and find a better thread to post in. This is not "This Week In Raildex General". I'm completely done giving warnings about this, whether in-thread or otherwise.