Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[Arbitres]

Funny thing is, that if Shirou DID take the easy way out, everyone would be dead. Because the easy way out would be him running away to save himself.

Would he be a villain? no, because that was one of the possible choices for him. Saying he;d be a complete villain just proves my point. what makes you think that is evil? Give me a detailed explanation. Real logic, not idealistic logic. Because in HF Shirou throws his ideology out of the window, and opens his way to several methodology.

Actually, I'm going to stop trying now. Someone, someone better then explaining stuff then me - please take over.

[Flinch]

Take a step back and imagine yourself in that situation. Are you honestly going to say that you would let over 100 innocent people die simply because you don't want one person to die? There is ONLY ONE way that can be justified, and that is when 100 men go in and die on a rescue mission, because they CHOSE to die for the sake of saving that one person. It's nice to pray and hope for happy endings, its even nicer to get a happy ending, but at what cost? Are you really able to deem someone's life so much greater than a large quantity of other people that they should be sacrificed for that one person's existence?

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Flinch

And that's why Shrio is an idiot. If you take the extra few seconds to think things through logically, he would've come to the most practical, yet worst, conclusion. That conclusion would have been to kill her. If they did that, though, there wouldn't be a story, hence Shiro remains and idiot in all 3 paths.

Erm, what the fuck are you talking about? Shirou knows nothing about her situation in Fate or in UBW....

Oh and, incidentally, by the same logic he should have killed Ilya in Fate. No sense in risking the Grail being formed just to save one little girl, after all....

Similarly for every other situation where Shirou saved an innocent. He should have left Caster to drain souls until he was ready to fight, he should certainly not have jumped out to save Ilya in UBW (although it was ultimately pointless), he should have killed Ilya at the first opportunity in Fate (he knew she was a master, she was a potential danger to him and others and she was totally helpless in the day, she he should have bumped her off), he should have forced Saber to eat souls as soon as he knew the potential danger of someone else winning the Grail (because a few lives of random innocents are far less important than the whole city or even the whole world), and so on.

Shirou does not uphold "kill one to save many", and HF is not exclusive in that respect. It's just that you can't accept it because he's trying to save a girl that he likes and you don't, rather than your favourite character (Ilya) or some random stranger he doesn't even know.

Had I been in his place, I would've killed her. Minimize the casualties, no matter the cost.

Well, no, because at that point in time she had not (to his knowledge) killed anyone, and was by no means certain to do so. Killing someone because of what they might do is wrong, especially when there is clearly no intent there.

Originally Posted by Arbitres

Same here. What is a single life compared to a million or the whole world's populace? You know, HF isn't screwed up because of Sakura or the shit that is and has been happening to her, it's actually the theme of letting a thousand+ die for a single person who may not revert.

The entire world's populace wasn't at stake. Further, if you're talking about the end, then the best way to stop her is actually to save her anyway. If you can get into a position where killing her is a viable option, then saving her is also a viable option.

Yeeeaaah.... uh, yeah.... Just yeah, I'd turn Sakura into a bloody mess of guts if even a hundred people's lives were at stake. Because by quantity, those people also have loved ones and hopes too. Robbing one single person of their life to make sure they live isn't wrong.

Yes, it is. Murdering an innocent person "just in case" is the hallmark of all authoritarian systems everywhere, and is a perfect excuse for denying people freedoms and rights. Once you start thinking of lives as simple statistics, you can justify just about anything.

Plus, why is it right that an innocent girl who has done nothing wrong and who has suffered nothing but pain for her entire life should be screwed over again because the situation she's been put in means that she is a potential danger to others (not an actual danger)? Your attitude is basically saying "lets kill the unfortunate so that those who are already fortunate can remain so", and to me that is just wrong.

Being selfish to that degree is fucking stupid, period. There is no justifications for it.

Well, I'd say that choosing to kill an innocent person to uphold some bullshit "ideal" that you don't even believe is pretty damn selfish, personally.

If Sakura had just been some random girl Shirou didn't know, he'd still have protected her just as well. So, no, it's not selfish, it's just not being willing to make the decision to sacrifice the life of another "just in case". And, to me, no-one has the right to make the decision to kill Sakura but Sakura herself. As long as she wishes to live and is not an imminent threat (i.e. isn't killing anyone at that moment, or about to do so), then to me killing her is not justifable. They should find another way to stop her, if necessary, which is what Shirou resolved to do (and, to the best of his knowledge, there was little risk in that approach).

HF even trying to make it seem okay is bullshit, and which is why I can't stand the route and why I want Sakura's route re-done.

OK, well, how would you have done it (bearing in mind that killing off the heroine halfway through the route is not an option)?

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

That's false choosing the sakura option still leads to ubw and Fate so it doesn't matter what you choose there still is only one choice.

Eh? What?

Originally Posted by Arbitres

Funny thing is, that if Shirou DID take the easy way out, everyone would be dead. Because the easy way out would be him running away to save himself.

Well, then, the easier way out. Because that's what killing Sakura is. It means writing off a fellow human being as "not worth saving" and just killing her as if you were destroying a violent dog. That is not the "right" thing to do, human beings deserve to be treated better than that.

Would he be a villain? no, because that was one of the possible choices for him. Saying he;d be a complete villain just proves my point. what makes you think that is evil? Give me a detailed explanation. Real logic, not idealistic logic. Because in HF Shirou throws his ideology out of the window, and opens his way to several methodology.

No, MoS Shirou isn't a villain, but he's not a true hero either. Heroes don't murder innocent people because they might kill others, they find a way to save them and everyone they might hurt, or at least try.

Originally Posted by Flinch

Take a step back and imagine yourself in that situation. Are you honestly going to say that you would let over 100 innocent people die simply because you don't want one person to die?

And you're honestly saying that you'd murder an innocent girl in cold blood because of what she might do? To me, that is just plain wrong, because she has done nothing deserving of death, and you are not sure that she will.

It's the same logic as is applied to banning lolicon and locking up people who are attracted to lolis ("well, if they're attracted to children they might decide to rape one, so we'd better lock them all up to protect the children") , so I guess that, once you've replied to this post, you're going to go straight to the nearest police station with your hard-drive and all your lolicon porn to hand yourself in for "public safety".

There is ONLY ONE way that can be justified, and that is when 100 men go in and die on a rescue mission, because they CHOSE to die for the sake of saving that one person.

What about Sakura? Does she not count as a person now? Does she not have the right to live her life too? Does she not have the right to at least be given a chance to prove that she can be saved without hurting anyone?

[LostHanyou]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

Would he be a villain? no, because that was one of the possible choices for him. Saying he;d be a complete villain just proves my point. what makes you think that is evil? Give me a detailed explanation. Real logic, not idealistic logic. Because in HF Shirou throws his ideology out of the window, and opens his way to several methodology.

The way I see it is, Shirou attempted to save Sakura at the cost of his own life and the ideals he relied on most of his life, which is incredibly heroic.
The easy way out is simply killing Sakura and continuing the Grail War from there, in comparison to throwing away his ideals and himself to save everyone he possibly can. The actions he took weren't selfish because his thought process wasn't "I'm doing this for myself" but "I'm throwing away myself for another person" which is incredibly in-character.

Originally Posted by Flinch

Take a step back and imagine yourself in that situation. Are you honestly going to say that you would let over 100 innocent people die simply because you don't want one person to die? There is ONLY ONE way that can be justified, and that is when 100 men go in and die on a rescue mission, because they CHOSE to die for the sake of saving that one person. It's nice to pray and hope for happy endings, its even nicer to get a happy ending, but at what cost? Are you really able to deem someone's life so much greater than a large quantity of other people that they should be sacrificed for that one person's existence?

Again, you're going by Shirou's personal guilt-ridden monologues and what the villains said would happen, even though Shirou tried and succeeded in preventing a catastrophe. It isn't a black and white "do this and 100 people die, don't and 1 person lives" like Fate was with the Holy Grail. You're turning this into a philosophical debate (that I personally have no interest in) rather than looking at the story.
I took it as a earn your happy ending route.

Now, if there was a 100% possibility Sakura was going to kill thousands's, I'm not even sure Shirou would keep trying to save her. At one point during a HF bad end he himself comes to the conclusion she is beyond saving, and at that point he probably wouldn't have continued trying.

[Arbitres]

The entire world's populace wasn't at stake.

It was a hyperbole.

Yes, it is. Murdering an innocent person "just in case" is the hallmark of all authoritarian systems everywhere, and is a perfect excuse for denying people freedoms and rights. Once you start thinking of lives as simple statistics, you can justify just about anything.

:P I so called it, I knew you'd bring up authoritarians again. Nice try, and thanks for playing.

Your attitude is basically saying "lets kill the unfortunate so that those who are already fortunate can remain so", and to me that is just wrong.

Yeah? And? that isn't any different from your "Let's take pity on the unfortunate so we can kill off the fortunate".

OK, well, how would you have done it (bearing in mind that killing off the heroine halfway through the route is not an option)?

Killing, that's utilitarian logic. But since Shirou is all about being a hero he doesn't realize how much of a sacrifice he needs to make. Please name a hero that doesn't have blood on their hands. (effective heroes, real heroes.)

I would have re-done it fromt he grounds up, period.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

:P I so called it, I knew you'd bring up authoritarians again. Nice try, and thanks for playing.

Well, that's because the whole "sacrifice one to save many" argument does underpin most authoritarian governments (barring the ones which don't even pretend to be acting for the benefit of the people, which are generally pretty rare and usually don't work all that well). It's certainly the principle behind the government's anti-terror legislation, for instance. As far as they are concerned, it's OK to lock hundreds of (probably) innocent people up in Guantanemo Bay because if one of them is a terrorist, the damage they could cause is potentially catastrophic. Then, of course, they have to find ways to justify it, which leads to torturing and pressurising the detainees into confessing so that they can claim to have had good reason to put them there in the first place (plus, of course, torturing them for information, which is again justified by the "greater good" argument).

Yeah? And? that isn't any different from your "Let's take pity on the unfortunate so we can kill off the fortunate".

But that's not what I'm saying. I'm not advocating killing 100 people to save Sakura (if Shirou was certain that the only two options were to kill her or to let the 100 die, then I would perhaps accept your logic, although I simply don't think that refusing to kill someone can ever be an evil act), I'm simply advocating giving Sakura a chance, because as far as Shirou is aware, she has not killed anyone yet and there is no certainty that she will kill anyone.

It's easy to judge him based on what happened eventually and forget that he did not know at the time how badly wrong things would go later on, or that the shadow had anything to do with Sakura.

Killing, that's utilitarian logic. But since Shirou is all about being a hero he doesn't realize how much of a sacrifice he needs to make. Please name a hero that doesn't have blood on their hands. (effective heroes, real heroes.)

Yeah, and you name a hero who has killed an entirely innocent person in cold blood before they have actually done anything (well, to the hero's knowledge, anyway)....

I would have re-done it fromt he grounds up, period.

So, you'd totally change Sakura's backstory so that the issue didn't come up?

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by Flinch

And that's why Shrio is an idiot. If you take the extra few seconds to think things through logically, he would've come to the most practical, yet worst, conclusion. That conclusion would have been to kill her. If they did that, though, there wouldn't be a story, hence Shiro remains and idiot in all 3 paths.

Had I been in his place, I would've killed her. Minimize the casualties, no matter the cost.

Ummm actually no. If we want to talk about logic, there was no logic going on in rashly attempting to kill her.

See my Ilya option earlier in this thread. And she even explained her powers to Shirou before the shadow even showed up. She also knew Sakura was the host for AM a loooong way into the route. So there was a perfectly well defined solution right there. And IIRC, didn't Rin say, she can get control of the worms with time? Besides, if she is such a danger, seal her and keep her under confinement. That should be within Rin's powers and Rider wouldn't mind that.

Too many options to really give up hope entirely like they did.

But since I'll be flagged with thinking in hindsight here let's look at it from the protag's eye at the time:

The first time the decision comes up she accidentally sapped precisely one magus of mana, and the thought was that she would go out and kill more as the worms made her crazy. Lock her up and have Rin feed her jewels (she had a ton of them at this point in the story, and years worth of prana would be better than a bunch of humans, though). Sakura is not the heretic, Zouken is the heretic. Go for the source, not the proxy, that is the most efficient manner in which to handle this (they don't know all the specifics of the soul jar yet).

The second time, the heretic you are trying to kill is telling you to kill his 'prized' work, let's ask ourselves why he would do that?(we know, with hindsight, Zouken wanted Shirou to betray her so that she would lose hope even quicker, and then despair. Seeing Shirou's lifeless corpse killed by Rider(which is the next point) in self-defense of her, plus knowing he gave up on her, what do you think that would do?)

A rogue Servant, who you know is die-hard in protecting her Master is hovering in spirit form and you have no Servant in which to keep said heroic spirit in check. Another foolish decision. And before anyone says he could use the arm. Why not try Rule Breaker?

The best way to handle this is to use our brains, not mindlessly go for a self-righteous, rash decision.

Also careful young one, with so quickly running to "whatever the cost". Ironically, you are embracing Zouken's will for helping humanity. Ask yourself, if death itself can be defeated by the sacrifice of billions, would that be okay? Trillions of future lives for a billion right? Surely you must see how wrong that line of thinking is.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

This arguement again will it never die? Shirou is in the wrong here. The problem is not that he didn't kill Sakura it's that he didn't lock down sakura making sure she cold never leave the room and made sure that if Sakura did kill anyone then it would be Shirou followed by her death. He didn't he was careless essentially allowed her to come and go as she pleased. That's pretty much the same as allowing someone with a deadly infestous disease to just walk out of quarantine. Then when he founds out about her killing spree does he lock her up? No he goes on with his own business. He has total disregard for human life. You can't really say he's not in the wrong when after he found out what Sakura was doing he didn't do a dam thing to stop her.

[DragoZERO]

"Screw everyone else, I'll save the woman I love. I'd gladly sacrifice half of the world if it meant keeping the person I love the most next to me forever." Is that wrong? Perhaps. But what is right and what is wrong does not matter. It's about saving the person most dear to you.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

This arguement again will it never die? Shirou is in the wrong here. The problem is not that he didn't kill Sakura it's that he didn't lock down sakura making sure she cold never leave the room and made sure that if Sakura did kill anyone then it would be Shirou followed by her death. He didn't he was careless essentially allowed her to come and go as she pleased. That's pretty much the same as allowing someone with a deadly infestous disease to just walk out of quarantine. Then when he founds out about her killing spree does he lock her up? No he goes on with his own business. He has total disregard for human life. You can't really say he's not in the wrong when after he found out what Sakura was doing he didn't do a dam thing to stop her.

Tell me, how was Shirou supposed to "lock down" Sakura when he was too busy going around the city trying to stop the other threats to it (which, as it happened, were actually Sakura anyway, but at the time he did not have any reason to suspect that)? When he's with her, there's no need to "lock her down" (because he's there to stop her if anything happens), and when he's not there's no point, because she has a key to his house and, even if he takes that away from her (which would hardly help her self-confidence, and thus would make the situation worse) the house is made of paper.

There's nothing (other than killing her) he could do to prevent her leaving if she did go insane (she's too powerful), so attempting to "lock her down" would be futile. Not to mention that it wouldn't have actually done anything to the shadow, because the shadow was her familiar rather than her (most of the time, at least). Plus, if she went insane, he would almost certainly have warning that it was going to happen, so he didn't need to keep her restrained at the time. Not to mention that she has Rider, who would most likely strenuously object to any attempt to restrain Sakura (by which I mean "stick her nails into rather unpleasant places if he dared try anything that she felt wasn't in Sakura's best interests).

Plus, he did try to stop Sakura doing anything. Once he found out that she was the shadow, he went to kill her, and he just couldn't do it. Following that, he went to Kotomine trying to find a solution ASAP. Locking Sakura up would have achieved nothing, because she's a magus. Further, how can you say that refusing to kill an innocent girl is "a disregard for life"? I'd say it's the exact opposite, personally....

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Tell me, how was Shirou supposed to "lock down" Sakura when he was too busy going around the city trying to stop the other threats to it (which, as it happened, were actually Sakura anyway, but at the time he did not have any reason to suspect that)? When he's with her, there's no need to "lock her down" (because he's there to stop her if anything happens), and when he's not there's no point, because she has a key to his house and, even if he takes that away from her (which would hardly help her self-confidence, and thus would make the situation worse) the house is made of paper.

There's nothing (other than killing her) he could do to prevent her leaving if she did go insane (she's too powerful), so attempting to "lock her down" would be futile. Not to mention that it wouldn't have actually done anything to the shadow, because the shadow was her familiar rather than her (most of the time, at least). Plus, if she went insane, he would almost certainly have warning that it was going to happen, so he didn't need to keep her restrained at the time. Not to mention that she has Rider, who would most likely strenuously object to any attempt to restrain Sakura (by which I mean "stick her nails into rather unpleasant places if he dared try anything that she felt wasn't in Sakura's best interests).

Plus, he did try to stop Sakura doing anything. Once he found out that she was the shadow, he went to kill her, and he just couldn't do it. Following that, he went to Kotomine trying to find a solution ASAP. Locking Sakura up would have achieved nothing, because she's a magus. Further, how can you say that refusing to kill an innocent girl is "a disregard for life"? I'd say it's the exact opposite, personally....

Well locking her up works two fold, for starters it tells Shirou exactly if sakura has left the room and the noise from her escaping would allow whoevers on guard to pursue her and prevent her from harming innocents especially if the room was bugged. Also if you noticed it got stronger the more it fed, had Shirou been preventing it from feeding in the first place Dark Sakura wouldn't have been as strong as she was and less lives wasted. Also if Sakura was totally lock down and prevented from being a total dumbass she would not have left the house, met Shinji and went crazy. She may actually have lasted the time limit if such an extreme trauma was needed to push her over the edge.

Besides shirou could permanently incapacitate her anyway by asking sakura to give him command of Rider and tell Rider to permanently use gorgon stare on her. There's many ways he could of stopped her from killing innocents but he never bothered trying. Didn't even think about it.

Anyway lol at your last response I'm tempted to say you activated my trap card. If you read closely you'll notice that I never said Shirou should kill Sakura I was refering to the fact that he did jack all to prevent her from killing others but you went defensive and assumed I was referring to him killing Sakura in order to prevent her from killing others.

[Flinch]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Yeah, and you name a hero who has killed an entirely innocent person in cold blood before they have actually done anything (well, to the hero's knowledge, anyway)...

Emperor Gaius Julius Caesar.

The man unified a corrupt Rome and caused it to flourish. In order to accomplish this, he killed everyone who he could not force to obey him.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

Well locking her up works two fold, for starters it tells Shirou exactly if sakura has left the room and the noise from her escaping would allow whoevers on guard to pursue her and prevent her from harming innocents especially if the room was bugged.

Who exactly can they afford to leave guarding her? Plus, doesn't she have to eat etc.? And, when someone is potentially living out the last few days of their life, it's not really nice to lock them away and prevent them from interacting with people.

Also if you noticed it got stronger the more it fed, had Shirou been preventing it from feeding in the first place Dark Sakura wouldn't have been as strong as she was and less lives wasted.

Yeah, but a) they didn't know that the shadow was Sakura and b) I don't think they could have stopped her feeding. As far as they were concerned, she was safely in bed, and there was no reason for them to assume otherwise.

Also if Sakura was totally lock down and prevented from being a total dumbass she would not have left the house, met Shinji and went crazy. She may actually have lasted the time limit if such an extreme trauma was needed to push her over the edge.

How exactly would they have stopped her? She had Rider on her side, and Rider was quite willing to follow her orders if necessary. Plus, if she had not gone to see Zouken at that point, then there is every likelihood that the shadow would have struck again that night. She did it in order to protect innocent people.

Besides shirou could permanently incapacitate her anyway by asking sakura to give him command of Rider and tell Rider to permanently use gorgon stare on her.

Oh, yeah, because giving a servant that they need to win the war to a guy who will weaken her substantially is such a great idea....

Not to mention that a) Rider would refuse and b) that would turn Sakura to stone. Further, it's not exactly nice to do that to her, and I don't think it would stop the shadow anyway. Plus, it may well not work, because she's too powerful a magus.

There's many ways he could of stopped her from killing innocents but he never bothered trying. Didn't even think about it.

No, there aren't. And, there certainly aren't any which won't horribly discomfort and/or discourage Sakura, which is exactly what he doesn't want to do when she's so unstable. He wants her to be in a warm, comfortable bed, not to be locked away like a criminal and feeling that she's totally worthless and unloved. That's the worst thing that can happen, from the POV of her sanity.

Originally Posted by Flinch

Emperor Gaius Julius Caesar.

The man unified a corrupt Rome and caused it to flourish. In order to accomplish this, he killed everyone who he could not force to obey him.

I wouldn't call him a "hero". He was a corrupt tyrant who was willing to do anything to obtain power. Even if his actions had a beneficial effect, he did them solely for his own power and, thus, he's not genuinely heroic. Plus, I meant someone who would fit the stereotypical role of a "hero" (in particular, I was thinking of a fictional one). If you allow Caesar, then virtually anyone would count (provided they won...), and thus you could find a hero who fitted any character profile. In particular, if Caeser is a hero, then HF Shirou is certainly one (I would argue that he fits the bill anyway, but if you're allowing Caesar then there's no debate, because HF Shirou saved the world and, regardless of what you think of his motivations, under your definition that makes him a hero.

Oh, and thanks for proving my point about your views being intrinsically linked to authoritarianism, BTW....

[Flinch]

As long as people are not tools, I don't care what form of government is in control.

And Gaius did more for Rome than MANY emperors could ever dream of, and seizing power for him also meant that for the good of Rome, because he wanted Rome to prosper more than anything else.

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

This arguement again will it never die? Shirou is in the wrong here. The problem is not that he didn't kill Sakura it's that he didn't lock down sakura making sure she cold never leave the room and made sure that if Sakura did kill anyone then it would be Shirou followed by her death. He didn't he was careless essentially allowed her to come and go as she pleased. That's pretty much the same as allowing someone with a deadly infestous disease to just walk out of quarantine. Then when he founds out about her killing spree does he lock her up? No he goes on with his own business. He has total disregard for human life. You can't really say he's not in the wrong when after he found out what Sakura was doing he didn't do a dam thing to stop her.

Why didn't Rin detect when Sakura went out of the house? They had already confined her to her room. The shadow itself manifested on it's own and spread (you do know it can teleport through shadows right?) well Rin had no knowledge of that fact, and she was the most intelligent magus there. And Rin kept familiars on Sakura at all times. It is not that Sakura was free to go wherever she pleased. The Shadow could break through all of the wards and warnings they had, and Rin did use a few of them, if you read the scenes properly. Unfortunately, it was out of their hands.

Honestly, and what would most of the people arguing these points do? Throw the girl away and kill her. Playing right into the hands of one or both of the main villains, causing what could have been an even bigger catastrophe. Yeah, nice job heroes. You couldn't save a girl suffering (I'll not even consider 'mercy-killing' to be 'saving' here, since I stand by the alternatives I proposed. ) or the people who will be killed when the idiots get trolled.

Look the so-called 'righteous busybodies' here. If you want to say flat out, that letting her live while people were dying is wrong, then I say that refusing to see the obvious alternatives and instead go for the quickest route without knowing a damn thing of the situation is the stupidest, most short-sighted thing I've ever seen. What if the curse wasn't stopped with her death? What if all you did was kill her consciousness by trying, which succumbed to despair, and you just had full AM without Sakura's id to at least keep it in check? What if Zouken had gotten the body. And it would be all too late to say whoops or to apologize to Sakura after shit went wrong.

Seriously, for all the bluster in this conversation, there continues to be the same blind, fanatical, narrow viewpoint. That was the one thing that pissed me off greatly in HF; that intelligent people refused to think, or rather, too stubborn in their ways.

As long as people are not tools, I don't care what form of government is in control.

Careful, you are making a very general statement here.

[mAc Chaos]

lol I love how no matter when I come back to this forum this debate is always raging.

[Flinch]

Does it surprise you that the debates are ALWAYS about HF? Its as if the game forum is overrun by one path...

[Arbitres]

Originally Posted by Flinch

Does it surprise you that the debates are ALWAYS about HF? Its as if the game forum is overrun by one path...

In the whole game thread defense, it's Cherry-tan and Alty that keeps railing it back on HF.

Also, Julius wasn't a hero. I'd personally would have gone with Batman.

Look the so-called 'righteous busybodies' here. If you want to say flat out, that letting her live while people were dying is wrong, then I say that refusing to see the obvious alternatives and instead go for the quickest route without knowing a damn thing of the situation is the stupidest, most short-sighted thing I've ever seen.

It's ideological as well as a preference on handling things. Just like you and cherry-tan's being about saving Sakura. My biggest quip is with Shirou though, not Sakura. So you two have no need to get defensive-aggressive.

Seriously, for all the bluster in this conversation, there continues to be the same blind, fanatical, narrow viewpoint. That was the one thing that pissed me off greatly in HF; that intelligent people refused to think, or rather, too stubborn in their ways.

Same goes with you and Cherry-tan.

lol I love how no matter when I come back to this forum this debate is always raging.

It's an ideologically heavy debate that people can't agree on, so it's understandable.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

So, then, at what point do his feelings "change"? When you make the last Sakura choice, and are locked into the HF route?

They don't change. This is Shirou in HF already...

[careph]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

"Screw everyone else, I'll save the woman I love. I'd gladly sacrifice half of the world if it meant keeping the person I love the most next to me forever." Is that wrong? Perhaps. But what is right and what is wrong does not matter. It's about saving the person most dear to you.

Concise and to the point. Thank you so much for this comment, good Sir.