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Old 2014-08-30, 09:16   Link #881
risingstar3110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
There was only one way Ukraine could have prevented the invasion without having an American army base in their soil (which in a smaller way also gives up some sovereignty.). And that one way is to have kept their nuclear capability. The fact remains that no one has tried to full on invade a nuclear power, and now we know nuclear deterrent by foreign proxy no longer works.
Vallen. Look at how many countries don't have nuclear power or US military presence, and answer me why they still exist?

The politics of small countries since ancient has been trying to be flexible dealing with larger countries. Even during Ancient China, weaker nation after victory against mightier one would have to send apologises and gifts to stop further escalation. Otherwise there would have been only 2 or 3 massive countries around the globe.


Give backing toward Ukraine with a promise that NATO can't keep or terrible to keep (mutual destruction) is a f*cking bad idea. If the Ukraine can't handle Russian military , then go signing a peace treaty, or band with others to keep the economical pressure into folding their war game, or ask for supports from other to build their own military power. If all has been done and they still can't resist, then may as well perish, as like history has always been showing, there is no point for a nation state to exist if they can't stand their own independently.

In short Ukraine and NATO can do whatever they want, even resort to terrorists tactics or assassins. All part of modern politics. But joining NATO to bluff each other over a nuclear war? Should not even on option table
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Old 2014-08-30, 09:32   Link #882
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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If all has been done and they still can't resist, then may as well perish, as like history has always been showing, there is no point for a nation state to exist if they can't stand their own independently.
You talk about them perishing like it is of no consequence. Well guess what, no one likes to perish, and the whole point is that Russia is breaking a peace treaty to invade. A nation is not going to allow itself to die because you want it to. Such nations will see that the only way forward is nukes. Yes, it likely will doom the human race, but if you don't care about the survival of small nations, why should small nations care about YOUR survival?
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Old 2014-08-30, 09:34   Link #883
vasya(russ)
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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28968526
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Old 2014-08-30, 10:00   Link #884
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
The other option seems to be making it economically unviable to invade.
That requires all parties to be acting logical when it comes to economics, and for economic situations to not change. I can see many nations not seeing this as a viable option.
Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
The politics of small countries since ancient has been trying to be flexible dealing with larger countries. Even during Ancient China, weaker nation after victory against mightier one would have to send apologises and gifts to stop further escalation. Otherwise there would have been only 2 or 3 massive countries around the globe.
The problem is that nuclear proliferation can potentially mean that escalation is too dangerous for even the biggger countries to engage in. Ancient China never had to realistically contend with the possibility that the likes of Vietnam/Korea/Japan could wipe their capitol off the map in under 10 minutes. Trying to apply those sorts of ancient world paradigms to the 21st century seems incredibly foolish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
If all has been done and they still can't resist, then may as well perish, as like history has always been showing, there is no point for a nation state to exist if they can't stand their own independently.
And you're probably looking at a very dangerous 21st century if tons of smaller nations decide that their security/independence can be secured with nuclear arms.
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Old 2014-08-30, 10:13   Link #885
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
And you're probably looking at a very dangerous 21st century if tons of smaller nations decide that their security/independence can be secured with nuclear arms.
Actually that is already true; what Ukraine's invasion showed that was new, is that smaller nations can only keep their security and independence with nuclear arms.

Ukraine proved that both peace treaties AND nuclear umbrellas don't work against a nuclear powered invader. So what's left? Nuclear arms is never that attractive, it is expensive and a security risk in itself. But when every other option is a failure, you are left with only one bad option that work.

It would cause the extinction of the human race in the long term, but in the short term it works. And now we know it is the ONLY thing that works.
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Old 2014-08-30, 10:47   Link #886
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Actually that is already true; what Ukraine's invasion showed that was new, is that smaller nations can only keep their security and independence with nuclear arms.

Ukraine proved that both peace treaties AND nuclear umbrellas don't work against a nuclear powered invader. So what's left? Nuclear arms is never that attractive, it is expensive and a security risk in itself. But when every other option is a failure, you are left with only one bad option that work.

It would cause the extinction of the human race in the long term, but in the short term it works. And now we know it is the ONLY thing that works.
If you are going to think that way, I hope you have a bottlecap collection in place.

Not to say I don't agree with you,however I find that idea quite hard to agree with when people think MAD is their only way of survival.
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Old 2014-08-30, 12:05   Link #887
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
If you are going to think that way, I hope you have a bottlecap collection in place.

Not to say I don't agree with you,however I find that idea quite hard to agree with when people think MAD is their only way of survival.
Vallen never claimed it was a way of survival, I think he actually pointed out that it leads to a very likely extinction of the human race but when every other option seems to be null and void humans are foolish enough to take the last one that seems to work short term and that's MAD.
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Old 2014-08-30, 13:28   Link #888
Ithekro
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There must have been something besided nuclear weapons that havesafegaurded countries in the last 70 years.
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Old 2014-08-30, 13:38   Link #889
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
There must have been something besided nuclear weapons that havesafegaurded countries in the last 70 years.
during the height of the cold war it was absolutely the idea of mutually assure destruction that keep both the US and USSR in check. Confrontations were done by proxy. The closest US and USSR went into direct conflict with each other was the Cuban Missile Crisis and that was button away form Nuke War.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vasya(russ) View Post
Putin will not advance further because the west will completely choke russian economy in response. He is bluffing. Also this war is stadily loosing support from russian people both bacause of sanctions and human losses. Russians don't want to sacrifice their prosperity and their sons for Putin's ambitions (though his rating is quite high yet). Even the propaganda will not halt it. In short, Ukrane is Putin's Vietnam.

Hello, by the way! This is my first post though I've been observing this forum for quite a bit.
i thought Crimea would have satisfied Putin but i was wrong.
i thought with the downing of the Malaysia jet Putin would pull back, i was wrong
i thought with imminent defeat of the separatist Putin would pull back, i was wrong.

My point, you can't predict what Putin will do.
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Old 2014-08-30, 14:05   Link #890
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
There must have been something besided nuclear weapons that havesafegaurded countries in the last 70 years.
That naive and idealistic little loli inside me say it is trust. Trust in a friend that will help you when in need. Trust that your enemy is honorable enough not to steal your lolis and stab you in the back. Trust that the stranger will either leave you alone or befriend you.

Though it seems that it doesn't exist anymore.

NATO Just Released Satellite Evidence Russia Is Lying About Invading Ukraine
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2014-08-30, 14:08   Link #891
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
That naive and idealistic little loli inside me say it is trust. Trust in a friend that will help you when in need. Trust that your enemy is honorable enough not to steal your lolis and stab you in the back. Trust that the stranger will either leave you alone or befriend you.

Though it seems that it doesn't exist anymore.

NATO Just Released Satellite Evidence Russia Is Lying About Invading Ukraine

Saintess, no one in their right mind will trust you with a loli.
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Old 2014-08-30, 14:13   Link #892
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
Saintess, no one in their right mind will trust you with a loli.
Their loss. I can protect lolis better than any country in the EU can protect Ukraine.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2014-08-30, 14:40   Link #893
Dextro
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Their loss. I can protect lolis better than any country in the EU can protect Ukraine.
I would say you would protect a loli as much Russia protects Ukraine
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Old 2014-08-30, 17:24   Link #894
Xellos-_^
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Their loss. I can protect lolis better than any country in the EU can protect Ukraine.
i am pretty sure chaining them to your basement does not count as protection.
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Old 2014-08-30, 18:13   Link #895
Wigwams
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
There must have been something besided nuclear weapons that havesafegaurded countries in the last 70 years.
american dominance over the world as a super power has "safe guarded" the world. that is the truth. putin is challenging that very hard. and so far america has appeared weak and unwilling. if ukraine falls, thats a signal to other aggressors that USA is not almighty. whats to stop china from doing the same thing? north korea?
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Old 2014-08-30, 18:48   Link #896
Fireminer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
There was only one way Ukraine could have prevented the invasion without having an American army base in their soil (which in a smaller way also gives up some sovereignty.). And that one way is to have kept their nuclear capability. The fact remains that no one has tried to full on invade a nuclear power, and now we know nuclear deterrent by foreign proxy no longer works.
Now I see why you don't have a single thought to protect Taiwan in the case of China invade...
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Old 2014-08-30, 19:09   Link #897
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Fireminer View Post
Now I see why you don't have a single thought to protect Taiwan in the case of China invade...
If there was even the tiniest chance that Taiwan can survive by my direct involvement, I would. But it seems you are under the illusion that modern China marching into your country can be repelled if only your people band together. It's not that simple anymore.
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Old 2014-08-30, 19:13   Link #898
Xellos-_^
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vallen does have a point,

if you are a small country there is only 2 ways to safeguard your borders.

1. do everything your big neighbor tells you to.
2. make any invasion more costly then gain by huge margins.
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Old 2014-08-31, 01:33   Link #899
risingstar3110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
That requires all parties to be acting logical when it comes to economics, and for economic situations to not change. I can see many nations not seeing this as a viable option.

The problem is that nuclear proliferation can potentially mean that escalation is too dangerous for even the biggger countries to engage in. Ancient China never had to realistically contend with the possibility that the likes of Vietnam/Korea/Japan could wipe their capitol off the map in under 10 minutes. Trying to apply those sorts of ancient world paradigms to the 21st century seems incredibly foolish.
Not under 10 minutes. But you heard about the siege of Baghdad? It's a sort of civilization destruction that modern warfare would have been proud off.

Even the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was only shocking because it happened so instantly. The casualties of 90-160k are still a fraction of the actual Japan population. But a level lower in scale comparing to the non-nuclear Yangzhou, Guangzhou massacre in Ancient China or the recent one in Rwanda.

Modern politics are more volatile due to the introduction of technology (eg nuclear bombs), but in counter was also kept better in check due to social media and democratic global governments. Still at its heart, the nature is still the same. I believe a lot of China current policy still reflect over what they encounters during their thousand years of history
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
And you're probably looking at a very dangerous 21st century if tons of smaller nations decide that their security/independence can be secured with nuclear arms.
But that's why larger nation has been preventing smaller one to aim themselves with nuclear power in the first place. The whole Iran and NK issues for example
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Last edited by risingstar3110; 2014-08-31 at 02:08.
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Old 2014-08-31, 01:56   Link #900
risingstar3110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
You talk about them perishing like it is of no consequence. Well guess what, no one likes to perish, and the whole point is that Russia is breaking a peace treaty to invade. A nation is not going to allow itself to die because you want it to. Such nations will see that the only way forward is nukes. Yes, it likely will doom the human race, but if you don't care about the survival of small nations, why should small nations care about YOUR survival?
Oh please stop being hypocrites.

If you care so much about the existence of nation states at a cost of whole human race. Then what you said about current Congo Civil War that threaten the existence of its own nation state? How's about Sudan where its identity was severed by the independence of South Sudan? Syria? Lybia?

And if you don't because they are some African/ Middle-East nations no one cared about. Then how's about Yugoslavia? How's about the USSR then? Is it their right to burn the world to the ground when their nation states were on the verge of perish? Will you applaud them if to protect themselves from totally collapsed, the USSR started the new World War 3 in 1985 by dropping a nuke on every major city in Europe and North American?

Sure you do
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