[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by Rias

Spoiler for speculation:

Perhaps it's a person that has somethings that makes everyone acknowledge him as "Ginzo". First thing that comes to mind is Ginzo's ring. If Ginzo is dead before each game, then obviously the scene where he throws away his ring happens much earlier (at least before oct 4), so it's possible for anyone to have picked it up.

Spoiler:

However, it was stated that nobody can mistake someone else for Kinzo. Therefore, the person who is regarded as Kinzo has to be none other than Kinzo, and not just a convincing fake. If he has something that makes others regard him as Kinzo, that has to also make him BE Kinzo.

As long as we're playing name games here, there's no reason we can't assume that in addition to two Battlers, there are two Kinzos.

The only person safe from that might be Kanon, since it's been stated that no other person can use that name, implying that only one person can.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Wait a second, k//eternal and the translation posted above are right.

Spoiler for all red text:

No one never says that Ushiromiya Battler is Asumu's son in red. meta Battler does say that Asumu is Battler's mother.

The only time either of them use the word 'son' is when Beato says You are not Ushiromiya Asumu's son., speaking to meta Battler.

So if we assume that meta Battler is a girl who was not born from Asumu, he could be Asumu's son...i guess.
Hey, it's the meta world, anything could happen......

And if there is another Ushiromiya Battler, that can be a girl.

Oh hey, I'm glad my catch might actually have been worth something. In that case,

Spoiler:

I'll make another push to at least not exclude the possibility that "Ange" is Battler 2. It may be very difficult to lie in red text, but what if it's like biting through your tongue, or walking into a fire? You'll pull back by instinct (can't say it, might come out white), but if you really push yourself, you can do it. Just means you'll die.

There's no damage to the authenticity of anyone else's red text this way, either. Although maybe I just don't have enough elaboration on "the official reason", that is, that she died due to revealing her identity. Was this stated in red?

[chronotrig]

This whole thing about 'what is someone's name' has me a bit edgy. Names are important in almost all magic-related fantasies, but we don't know the rules for how people are named in Umineko.

Spoiler for ep4:

And to make things more interesting, Beato only ever uses the family names for Kumasawa, Gohda and Nanjo. Now that we have another Kumasawa and Nanjo (their sons) with tachi-e's, that gives us some interesting leeway.

And even more odd is the fact that Kanon is Kanon's name. Think about it. It was a name he was given when he was employed, and he has another name. So we know:
1. People can be given names by other people or groups after they are born, and
2. people can have multiple names, unless Kanon's original name is actually no longer his name.

So if you want to argue that Ange has another name, Battler, then there's nothing that we've seen so far that proves you wrong.
I'm not quite sure if that helps wrap up any mysteries though.

[Rias]

Originally Posted by Flyvedelta

Wait, if Kanon did survive and did not die in the first episode, that means that he's the only one that survive in the first episode right ?

But that injury on his chest cannot be fake, so. .

Originally Posted by k//eternal

Spoiler:

However, it was stated that nobody can mistake someone else for Kinzo. Therefore, the person who is regarded as Kinzo has to be none other than Kinzo, and not just a convincing fake. If he has something that makes others regard him as Kinzo, that has to also make him BE Kinzo.

As long as we're playing name games here, there's no reason we can't assume that in addition to two Battlers, there are two Kinzos.

The only person safe from that might be Kanon, since it's been stated that no other person can use that name, implying that only one person can.

Spoiler:

Let's look at the 2 lines of red text that surronds ep4's Ginzo closely:
1. 親族会議に居合わせた全員が、金蔵の存在を認めた！
2. 全ての人物は右代宮金蔵を見間違わない。いかなる変装であったとしても、右代宮金蔵を見間違わ ない！

We know that those who have attended the meeting recognized the existence of Ginzo. That's fine. The critial part is that the 2nd line only eliminates the fact that someone might've cosplayed and fooled everyone else as Ginzo. That is, no one was mistaken by the looks of someone who loooks like Ginzo and recognized that person as Ginzo.

If Ginzo is a title name, then someone else only has to have whatever to prove that he/she is the new Ginzo, and everyone else has to recognize him as Ginzo. Just like how everyone had to recognize "Beatrice" in ep2. Surely the adults didn't just acknowledge the existance of "Beatrice" because suit-Beatrice looked like the Beatrice on the potrait.

Furthurmore, Kanon isn't safe from manipulation. LD's red text in ??? meant nothing, as recall that the servants felt someone's presence, opened the door and there was "Kanon". That "Kanon" never claimed that he's the real Kanon; everyone else just assumed he is, and that doesn't violate LD's red text

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by Rias

Spoiler:

Furthurmore, Kanon isn't safe from manipulation. LD's red text in ??? meant nothing, as recall that the servants felt someone's presence, opened the door and there was "Kanon". That "Kanon" never claimed that he's the real Kanon; everyone else just assumed he is, and that doesn't violate LD's red text

Spoiler:

Beatrice: They would definitely not mistake another person for Kanon.

LD's might not be violated, but Beato's would be. Put the two together and that was him.

I'm reading LD's as "only one person is named Kanon", and Beato's as "if someone sees Kanon then that was him", but if you don't, let me in on your thought.

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Spoiler for chapter 17:

Battler thinking:
6 years ago for me, the person called Beatrice did not exist.

Spoiler for Ep 4:

But didn't Battler say all the way back in Ep 1 that when he was a kid he used to believe in the witch?
This line also means Battler could of met "Beatrice" while he was away

[yangxu]

Spoiler:

I don't get how the servants could mistake an imposter of Kanon for the real Kanon. Let's say the imposter dressed exactly like the real Kanon, his face would have to be nearly identical to the real one to fool 4 people at the same time. Unless of course, Kanon is simply a "codename" or "title" that can be adapted by anyone who has the proper "equipments", like what Rias proposed about the new Kinzo.

So there are three possibilities:

1. Kanon had a twin
2. An imposter adopted the title "Kanon" and attempted to murder everyone
3. The real Kanon faked death and attempted to kill everyone afterwards

[Sterling01]

In Ep 2 when was Kanon's death confirmed??

Originally Posted by yangxu

Spoiler:

Kanon is simply a "codename" or "title" that can be adapted by anyone who has the proper "equipments", like what Rias proposed about the new Kinzo.

Kanon is the title he got when he started working for the family he does have another name

[Von Himmel]

Spoiler:

Beatrice: All survivors have alibis!! That also includes the dead!! In other words, no humans or dead people on the island could have killed Kanon! Kanon did not commit suicide.
Lambda: Kanon did not die in an accident.

This might be weird, but what about 'missing people' ? I mean, if someone actually manage to fake his/her death, can you count him/her as 'survivors' ? For some reason, calling them as survivors are kinda weird for some reasons. Also, because he/she does not die yet, they can't be counted as 'the dead'

Or perhaps, the words 'survivor' actually means for one who survived the twilight killing and had been targetted before ?

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by Flyvedelta

This might be weird, but what about 'missing people' ? I mean, if someone actually manage to fake his/her death, can you count him/her as 'survivors' ? For some reason, calling them as survivors are kinda weird for some reasons. Also, because he/she does not die yet, they can't be counted as 'the dead'

Or perhaps, the words 'survivor' actually means for one who survived the twilight killing and had been targetted before ?

I'd certainly count them as "humans", unless going missing makes one not human for some reason.

[Von Himmel]

Well, that's the problem for me
Isn't it simpler to say : All humans in this island have an alibi. That also includes the dead.

But, Beato seems to play with her words But it's beat that we're talking about, so I'm not pretty sure myself.

Well, that still didn't answer this though :

Spoiler:

no humans or dead people on the island could have killed Kanon!

. Or perhaps it's an another way of saying that the murderers are not in the boiler room ?

I don't get it, the red text in this chapter is deadly . .

[k//eternal]

I wouldn't look for an answer that contradicts the red text; it looks pretty unambiguous to me.

Unless you want to say

Spoiler:

someone off the island killed him, which is still valid.

[yangxu]

Originally Posted by Sterling01

In Ep 2 when was Kanon's death confirmed??

Kanon is the title he got when he started working for the family he does have another name

You're right, his death was not confirmed in Ep. 2.
And it's likely that someone took over Kanon's title by inheriting a symbolic item indicating this. But what contradicts the imposter theory is that everyone recognized Kanon almost immediately. Surely, the servants don't simply look for items that represent a person in particular, they must've stared into Kanon's face to address him as Kanon.

Now, I don't trust any of the meta-world stuff, however, Kanon's eye color was red when Genji and the others found him, yet no one among them pointed out this obvious trait. If this was an artifact of magic, then it's insigificant, since it's not real. But if his eye color existed parallely in the real world, then something's wrong.

Also when Shanon brought in the cobwebs, I assume the imposter was killed, so who ended up killing everyone then? On the other hand, if it was the real Kanon Shanon killed, then he must've not been the killer responsible for eliminating the rest of the Ushiromiya members.

[k//eternal]

I don't buy someone actually getting killed by cobwebs. Pretty definitely meta-only.

Unless she fetched the cleaver he used in Ep. 1 and chopped him with it.

[chronotrig]

In ep2, Kanon's death was confirmed in red by Beato, right after Jessica's corpse was found.
Kanon was killed in this room.
This room meaning Jessica's room. She also says the same thing again later.

[k//eternal]

If "Kanon" is a title, then is Kanon "killed" if he throws away that identity?

[Ithekro]

Ah the complexities of not knowing everything that is and is not fact.

Word games and titles designed to keep the reader in the dark until the end.

Like Higurashi, we are missing something important that just is not clear in the first four episodes...once it gets told in the answers arcs, it will be "oh of course, that fits" moments all around...but the connecting pieces are missing still...or out of order.

[Rias]

Putting aside the "mutiple Kanon" possibilty for now, and assuming Beatrice isn't being cheesy by saying refering a person by his real name (kinda like saying Shannon is dead but actually Sayo is not), Kanon's condition as a corpse in ep1-4

Spoiler for ep4 red text:

EP1:
Problem: Dying Kanon was discovered in the boiler room, Nanjo couldn't do anything for him, and he died soon after. According to ep4's red text, everyone including the dead has an alibi. That is, people on the island, even the dead people, cannot kill Kanon. Kanon didn't die in an accident, nor suicide. Beatrice refused to recite that he was killed by others.
Thoughts: The most crucial part is, there's no red text confirmation that Kanon is actually dead in ep1. Battler (assuming to be trustworthy), did not see the moment he died. Therefore his death can be manipulated by Nanjo, and Kanon actually isn't dead. Even if he did die, there's still the possibilities of dying of old age (hey you never know, some people die young), or died becuase of disease. Finally, just becase everyone has an alibi, doesn't mean the alibi can be false (as in multiple people tried to kill Kanon and made up a story after). However, since the "no one on the island..." part is also red, we have to take it as is.

EP2:
Problem: Corpse is missing, but Beatrice announced twice with red text that Kanon was killed in Jessica's room. Later on Kanon came back, killed two more servants, and disappeared again.
Thoughts: This might be one of those "Kanon died but 'whatever Kanon's real name is' lives on" moments The two lines there were refused to recite were that Kanon's corpse is in that room, and Kanon had the master key. As we learn in ep4, Beatrice doesn't own Battler anything and only recites when she feels it's to her advantage. So is his corpse actually in the room, or just that Beatrice hiding something up her sleeves? Battler has stated that perhaps Kanon is a title, just like Ginzo, and thus would pass Beatrice's red text of how the servants would not mistaken another person as Kanon. Furthermore, since it's the servants who identified Kanon, not "Kanon" stating that he is Kanon, it doesn't violate LD's red text.

EP3:
Problem: Died in the chapel, accroding to Nanjo, was shot to death. Red text confirmed death, and also not suicide.
Thoughts: If considering how shady he seems in ep1,2,4, he seems to have died normally here...

EP4: Red text confirms and guarantees that Kanon is dead, was the first to die in the Kyrie 5, and "in other words, the 9th victim." The corpse was not discoverable by Battler.
Thoughts: Another epsiode 2. Missing corpse, red text confirmed death. The "Kyrie 5" isn't explained fully, as one can only assume it's the five that were locked in the jail cell. However, that doesn't mean the other three beside Kyrie and Kanon has to be Nanjo/Krauss/Shannon.

[Von Himmel]

Oh, one more questions. When did the Beatrice's game began ? Was it when all the Ushiromiya came to the island, or was it at the night of the first day ?

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Wait a second, k//eternal and the translation posted above are right.

Spoiler for all red text:

No one never says that Ushiromiya Battler is Asumu's son in red. meta Battler does say that Asumu is Battler's mother.

The only time either of them use the word 'son' is when Beato says You are not Ushiromiya Asumu's son., speaking to meta Battler.

So if we assume that meta Battler is a girl who was not born from Asumu, he could be Asumu's son...i guess.
Hey, it's the meta world, anything could happen......

And if there is another Ushiromiya Battler, that can be a girl.

Spoiler for Episode 3, end:

It was under my understanding that she meant that "original Battler" is a guy, due to this blue line

……そなたは右代宮明日夢の息子、右代宮戦人と同姓同名の別人である。

Well, that said, since it is a hypothesis, it might be some BS just to confuse Battler (after all, she claimed in blue that Battler couldn't say "I'm Ushiromiya Battler, Kinzo's grandchild" despite he just couldn't say "I'm Asumu's son", so a fallacious assumption from cause and effect.

Interestingly enough, Beatrice says that it is Battler (not original, but the one we know) who did the crime/sin, and if he was the original Battler, he wouldn't have done that.

Originally Posted by k//eternal

If "Kanon" is a title, then is Kanon "killed" if he throws away that identity?

This isn't possible due to Lambda's red truth. Kanon had this name ever since he graduated from the Fukuin house and she stated clearly that only the person himself can bear such name.

Originally Posted by Flyvedelta

Oh, one more questions. When did the Beatrice's game began ? Was it when all the Ushiromiya came to the island, or was it at the night of the first day ?

It is implied that the game starts when everyone is gathered on Rokkenjima.

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

This isn't possible due to Lambda's red truth. Kanon had this name ever since he graduated from the Fukuin house and she stated clearly that only the person himself can bear such name.

That's not true as 34's text says only Kanon can use his name, it doesn't say he's only person who can use the name "Kanon".