Madoka Magica - Episode 09 Discussion / Poll

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

There's no telling what kind of family Sayaka has, or if she even has a family with her.

She has at least someone looking after her, or Madoka would have had nobody to talk to through that intercom system when she went to Sayaka's house to find her.

Mind you, this is just a minor nitpick. I find it more amusing than anything. It is something of an anime trope, I'll admit.

[ruurguy]

Originally Posted by scr

What. If what you mean is "scr is dismissing the possibility of QB being evil", I never stated that. My opinion is that QB _is_ evil, but maybe I didn't make it obvious enough.

Mmm, I'm going to start off by saying I am probably debating a bit just because I like debates as long as they don't go wildly off course and don't devolve into just slander. I'm going to try to avoid that but if you think my arguments are stupid or just don't want to continue though just let me know and I'll drop it =) Anyway, no, my statement was arguing because you believe it is 'evil' and I was trying to make an argument against that, although it is clearly amoral, a sociopath by human standards, alien, and almost certainly the antagonist in the series. I fully get that your opinion is that it is evil.

Originally Posted by scr

Yes, it can. That's _exactly_ why there are all sort of tests, so that the flaws can be discovered now rather than later. This is the reason why medicines are so goddamn [the rest of expletives redacted] expensive to the dismay of the people in the undeveloped countries: even if those medicines are cheap to make, testing new medicines makes the cost rise to stellar level.

Mmm, ok, let me deconstruct a few parts about this argument:

1) Are you aware of drugs like Procrit, Vioxx, and others? Procrit is an EPO used to treat anemia, primarily in cancer patients who may or may not be in chemo or radiation therapy. You may know it more commonly as the drug cyclers (like Lance Armstrong) might take to boost their red blood cell levels as a PED. Procrit was like most drugs heavily researched, went through extensive clinical trials, had millions if not billions of dollars poured into it, and yes, cost into the "stellar levels". Almost all cancer patients get anemic at some point, so it was routine to give them Procrit regardless of whether they were on chemo or radiation. Are you aware that later studies showed that for cancer patients who weren't actively on chemo and radiation therapy though that Procrit had little benefit and that it actually led to deaths of some of those patients that were not directly related to their cancer?

How about vioxx, a drug for osteoarthritis and acute pain. I'm sure you have heard of the lawsuits for its increase in chance for heart attacks. Whether all the lawsuits are justified or not is of course questionable. Numerous were thrown out. However it is without a doubt true that the drug has an increased chance of heart attack AND it was not properly documented, warned, or even known about before the drug was released. This is a major drug from Merck that went through extensive testing, extensive clinical trial, thousands of clinical trial subjects, and yet still didn't find all the side effects. Testing isn't perfect. It is basically impossible to cover every co-morbidity and concomitant medication and even just the various factors like ages, gender, and more. It is NOT neat and clean. You seem to be a bit idealistic in thinking that drug companies can actually test everything about these things before release and no issues ever pop up.

2) Deconstructing a different part, are you aware of how much research we have done using animals. Is this "wrong"? Some people believe it is. Animal rights activists are a huge force. In order to get sufficient sample to determine efficacy on a large number of subjects it seems like a "necessary evil" to test on animals. What is your opinion on this? Does a couple of hundred mice or other animals make a difference to you? Let's say that it is your only shot to prove some efficacy in your drug that otherwise would never get funding. This drug has to potential to save millions of people. Is this a necessary evil? What if we are the gerbils and mice to the QB? Ok, the entropy thing is kinda stupid in a pseudo science fiction sort of way. But we'll just substitute it with some other "for the greater good" ideal.

If you don't want to go into animals, how about the patients we use for actual clinical trials? Subjects for say a Phase III clinical trial are sick, in pain, or otherwise in need of medical attention with possibly a variety of things and are mostly volunteers. The drugs we find may kill them prematurely. But they were going to die anyway, and we found a safety risk because of them. Is this a necessary evil? They volunteered afterall to be test subjects. While some patients I guess wouldn't mind doing the greater good by showing there was a risk, I'm sure most of them are taking the drug in the hopes it is the miracle to make them better. To save them from a terminal illness or to relieve them of pain, etc.

Drug development is extremely hard, extremely time consuming, extremely expensive, and most of all, still imperfect. A lot of time and effort is going into designing better clinical trials, reducing costs, limiting risks, but if you think it is perfect and tested drugs never have issues you are sorely mistaken. That is reality.

Originally Posted by scr

Have you ever heard of this neat little thing called Occam's Razor?

Sure. Are you trying to use the definition "the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one"? Because that is not actually what occam's razor is technically. It is that you must have reason for bringing in plurality (basically extraneous assumptions and arguments) should not be brought in without cause. I am of course arguing that there is possibly cause beyond "it is evil". Occam's razor means we should tend toward the simpler theories, but it does not meant that the simplest theory is the right one.

Originally Posted by scr

This is my expectation too.

Yup, I hope so too personally that they figure something out. I am just hoping it isn't TOO sweet and far fetched. Damn you Mai Hime -_-

@Triple_R: Hmm so is your main issue with the entropy issue (which I agree with others is in the end a kind of silly idea to use but it's not the first time) is that it is a sci fi element? Are you saying that let's say it was some mystical magical thing like the balance of "witch power" or "grief power" or some even "happiness power" that it would have been ok? But it is just about the sci fi element that disturbs you? If so I think you are taking the element a bit too seriously. I think in the end it is just a sort of morality argument and he used a sci fi element cause Gen thought it would sound cool. But it is essentially just a "greater good" morality argument which I think most people were predicting of some sort. So sure the literal sci fi element is out of left field but I don't think the general principle of it is that shocking, and I don't really have an issue with it as a result.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Sackett

To Kyubee, humans are sentient cattle. He knows we are sentient, yet he still uses deceit to harvest our souls. We have every moral right resist being eaten. Particularly as they specifically target our young. (Left unstated by Kyubee was that teenage girls are particularly vulnerable to being manipulated.)

Agreed 100%.

I eat meat. But I am not so arrogant as to believe cattle should just lie down and be slaughtered without a fight. All life in this world have the right to fight for their own survival. They might not succeed, but that right to resist is always there.

If humans manage to resist and fight back against QB's people, then too bad for QB. Humans will go down fighting.

[Archon_Wing]

Ah, entropy. I knew this would come up in a cynical story. Basically, nothing is free, and everything requires energy. Eventually, one must feed off others until the entire place gets dark. Naturally we are opposed to such beliefs, but not Troll-be I guess. I love how he comes into Madoka's room. So matter of fact to explain everything. He is the best part of the show.

I thought Kyoko's death was a pretty big waste. If Sayaka had turned into a witch and killed her while she was in shock, I would have just settled for that. But instead, this girl who really didn't give a shit about others didn't take her own advice for once comes up with an extremely poorly thought out plan, goes back in there, and puts up a halfhearted fight. It was like "we're gonna turn into witches anyways, let's throw in the towel." but I'm not even sure if it even looks like that. Nor is it the way I like to remember this character going out.

Essentialy, the last part required people to be pretty stupid. And also, as I have had pointed out time after time, Madoka is best to not follow. She ends up getting people killed because she can't protect herself and it diverts their attention. I know she wants to give moral support, but she needs to work with the way that keeps people alive. I know you mean well, but the power of friendship doesn't work here.

And with Kyoko out of the picture, Homura's left alone, and Kyubee is probaly anxious to force Madoka into a MG. That was what happened in the other timeline. Let's just see if Homura has any more tricks up its sleeve.

Overall, this was the weakest episode of the series; it gets a 6. Of course a 6 for this series is better than a 6 for something like Oreimo or whatever.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Was "universal entropy", as a major concern, in any way, shape, or form, even lightly foreshadowed? I mean, even symbolically?

Instead of replying with new information, I'm going to reply with things I've already said, but you glossed over.

"Kyube was already obviously a non human entity, something beyond the girl's understanding. He basically was not of this world already. It seems rather logical that we were led the development that he came from somewhere else in the universe.

People already speculated that he had an ulterior motive to contracting magical girls beyond simply "lets stop witches that are causing harm!" This fits right in with those sorts of speculations, which I myself also did give repeatedly... So you really can't say that no one predicted any thing of the like. The exact ulterior motive, sure, but we speculated he had an agenda that was of his own self-benefit more than anything.

And th emotive he has is such a fantastic one, if he is speaking the truth. It further illustrates how he is non-human and operates on principles that cause great discomfort to us. It fits his character perfectly. "

ALSO, the whole point was that he was keeping his motives hidden. If we found out so soon earlier on, then he wouldn't of been doing a good job at it.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Beyond that, my point is that you can mix sci-fi and fantasy, and it can work, but if you're going to do that, it's good to do it up front. Like Nanoha largely did, and like Star Wars did.

Let me use an analogy here:

Suppose you're watching a medieval fantasy anime. Magical swords, bows and arrows, shining plate armor, eldritch blasts, that sort of stuff.

Then in Episode 9 of 12, after a city-wrecking dragon is slain, a classic Area 51-style alien pops up, shouts "That dragon was my pet, you creeps!" and shoots the protagonists with his high-tech ray gun.

To me, that's kind of universe breaking, frankly. It does feel really out of left field to bring in aliens and high tech and that sort of stuff that late on in a narrative.

That analogy is a gross exaggeration of what has happened in Madoka.

Kyube was here the whole time, he's not a random alien popping out. He was already clearly not human, and didn't share human sentiments.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I thought he could be a magical or mystical being, yes. Why not? Many magical girl familiars are that, hence the term "familiar".

Because if you felt this way, that was your own preconceived notion. His origin was never explained ever.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, a lot of people were taking them pretty seriously, Reckoner. You might not have been, but Panzerfan and Mentar, amongst several others, were.

Which is not relevant to me.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

"Universal entropy", as any sort of significant concern in this anime, was not foreshadowed whatsoever, in my opinion.

How is that not out of left field?

The concept? This show has constantly brought up ideas like energy, and how madoka possesses great potential and lots of magical energy. Now we find out why energy is so important to Kyube and why he's been trying so hard to convince her to contract.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

No, I'm not. I already pointed out the difference. Up front vs. late reveal.

Unless you can demonstrate why exactly revealing something like this later is inherently flawed then I can't see your point.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Because there was nothing even remotely sci-fi about it until now. Like a medieval fantasy anime that brings in aliens with ray guns at Episode 9 of 12.

I think they can go together, but it's often a difficult fusion to pull off, and it probably should be done upfront, and not as a late reveal.

Again your analogy is very flawed. The introduction of those elements in your analogy are clearly disruptive to the storyline already presented. The introduction of them in Madoka is fairly natural and logical. It didn't break anything in the story, and simply gave greater clarity.

[omimon]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well... let's say that Kyubey is saying the truth.

Then what?

The story then becomes about whether a girl will sacrifice herself in order to prevent/delay universal entropy. That's a rather "out there" moral dilemma to place as the very core of an anime series' conflict.

However, maybe it isn't the real core conflict, and in classic anime protagonist style, Madoka finds a "better way". Although that could very well feel cheap if the "better way" amounts to a deus ex machina.

Or the whole univeral entropy issue could be dropped and forgotten about, in which case, it'll be a nasty hanging plot-thread.

I just don't see how this ends well, frankly.

Yes, the plot is moving forward, but it's going into tricky territory. I hope Gen navigates it well...

Edit for Reckoner: The difference between this show and Nanoha, is that Nanoha brought in the sci-fi elements fairly early on. Heck, even Raising Heart had a sci-if element to it, and it was there from almost the very beginning. This show has had Faust allusions and analogies, "witches", "soul gems", "grief seeds". And it's highest tech were guns and bombs (magically created guns and bombs, seemingly so at least). Everything looked surreal and magical. This is the realm of magical fantasy, and not sci-fi at all, imo.

Sorry, but I just don't like this plot direction.

To be fair we have been seeing blackboards that move on its own and desks that goes into the floor. I wouldn't be surprised her they actually lived in Academy City.

[Archon_Wing]

We also need to take Kyubey with a ton of salt. Remember, don't feed the trolls; otherwise you fall for their evil plans and become witches.

[alu546]

Me and a friend were having a discussionon how this series could be a preview for another season, as homura may need to change dimensions again. With everyne dead now, iit doesnt seem like homura will be able to accomplish her main objective in this tmeline.


That and there are multiple mangas being released that operate on the same mythos with different characters.

[Reckoner]

That's a very interesting theory haha.

We'll have to wait and see. It's sad that this anime is what? Only 11 episodes or something?

[Makender]

My understanding of physics and the conservation of energy does not jive with this turn of events. Guess I'll just have to swallow. >.>

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by ruurguy

@Triple_R: Hmm so is your main issue with the entropy issue (which I agree with others is in the end a kind of silly idea to use but it's not the first time) is that it is a sci fi element? Are you saying that let's say it was some mystical magical thing like the balance of "witch power" or "grief power" or some even "happiness power" that it would have been ok? But it is just about the sci fi element that disturbs you? If so I think you are taking the element a bit too seriously. I think in the end it is just a sort of morality argument and he used a sci fi element cause Gen thought it would sound cool. But it is essentially just a "greater good" morality argument which I think most people were predicting of some sort. So sure the literal sci fi element is out of left field but I don't think the general principle of it is that shocking, and I don't really have an issue with it as a result.

Thank you. That's all I'm saying. That the sci-fi element is out of left field.

On the issue of the general principle, I think that the "greater good" moral delimma would be better couched within an issue a bit more pressing than universal entropy.

Perhaps we'll see that with Walpurgis Night itself, in fairness. I hope so, anyway.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

People already speculated that he had an ulterior motive to contracting magical girls beyond simply "lets stop witches that are causing harm!" This fits right in with those sorts of speculations, which I myself also did give repeatedly... So you really can't say that no one predicted any thing of the like. The exact ulterior motive, sure, but we speculated he had an agenda that was of his own self-benefit more than anything.

Well, technically, preventing or delaying universal entropy isn't an issue of "self-benefit" alone. It benefits all species, long term, to prevent or at least delay universal entropy.

ALSO, the whole point was that he was keeping his motives hidden. If we found out so soon earlier on, then he wouldn't of been doing a good job at it.

There's ways this could have been foreshadowed without revealling Kyubey's hidden motives all along. Have Madoka's mom watch a news report talking about increased solar flare activity, and scientists worrying about that. That would have been something, at least, imo.

That analogy is a gross exaggeration of what has happened in Madoka.

I don't think that it's a gross exaggeration. It's a slight exaggeration, in my opinion. One designed to get the point across.

Kyube was here the whole time,

Yes, but let's be honest here - very few people saw him as an alien in the sci-fi sense of the term "alien".

Which is not relevant to me.

My point is that there's a certain incongruity to using Faust allusions in Episode 3 and then bringing in heavy sci-fi elements in Episode 9. Basically, this anime was giving an overarching "archaic medieval europe witchcraft" feel to me, only that this was impacting on modern Japan. Now it goes from that to a sci-fi feel. I find it a bit jarring.

Unless you can demonstrate why exactly revealing something like this later is inherently flawed then I can't see your point.

When you do a sci-fi/fantasy fusion upfront, it's easier to avoid having one or the other come across as overly dominant, and hence there's less of a jarring effect than what you may have if you introduce the other one much later on.

The introduction of them in Madoka is fairly natural and logical. It didn't break anything in the story, and simply gave greater clarity.

I disagree. I think it's out of left field, and it feels a bit incongruent to me.

We may simply have to agree to disagree here, Reckoner.

[Archon_Wing]

Bad end? Time loop? I don't think I could take another season. I can't have yet another favorite show involving lolis getting horrifically killed repeatedly. Can I? I wonder... I wonder.

Of course not, nipah! Oh wait Gen Urobuchi, you liar! I'd rather just take them home.
Seriously.

[pikachuwei]

omfgwtfuxbbq alienz in mah mahou shoujo?

i dont think ANYONE saw this coming XD

[taofd]

Originally Posted by ruurguy

Mmm, I'm going to start off by saying I am probably debating a bit just because I like debates as long as they don't go wildly off course and don't devolve into just slander. I'm going to try to avoid that but if you think my arguments are stupid or just don't want to continue though just let me know and I'll drop it =) Anyway, no, my statement was arguing because you believe it is 'evil' and I was trying to make an argument against that, although it is clearly amoral, a sociopath by human standards, alien, and almost certainly the antagonist in the series. I fully get that your opinion is that it is evil.




Mmm, ok, let me deconstruct a few parts about this argument:

1) Are you aware of drugs like Procrit, Vioxx, and others? Procrit is an EPO used to treat anemia, primarily in cancer patients who may or may not be in chemo or radiation therapy. You may know it more commonly as the drug cyclers (like Lance Armstrong) might take to boost their red blood cell levels as a PED. Procrit was like most drugs heavily researched, went through extensive clinical trials, had millions if not billions of dollars poured into it, and yes, cost into the "stellar levels". Almost all cancer patients get anemic at some point, so it was routine to give them Procrit regardless of whether they were on chemo or radiation. Are you aware that later studies showed that for cancer patients who weren't actively on chemo and radiation therapy though that Procrit had little benefit and that it actually led to deaths of some of those patients that were not directly related to their cancer?

How about vioxx, a drug for osteoarthritis and acute pain. I'm sure you have heard of the lawsuits for its increase in chance for heart attacks. Whether all the lawsuits are justified or not is of course questionable. Numerous were thrown out. However it is without a doubt true that the drug has an increased chance of heart attack AND it was not properly documented, warned, or even known about before the drug was released. This is a major drug from Merck that went through extensive testing, extensive clinical trial, thousands of clinical trial subjects, and yet still didn't find all the side effects. Testing isn't perfect. It is basically impossible to cover every co-morbidity and concomitant medication and even just the various factors like ages, gender, and more. It is NOT neat and clean. You seem to be a bit idealistic in thinking that drug companies can actually test everything about these things before release and no issues ever pop up.

2) Deconstructing a different part, are you aware of how much research we have done using animals. Is this "wrong"? Some people believe it is. Animal rights activists are a huge force. In order to get sufficient sample to determine efficacy on a large number of subjects it seems like a "necessary evil" to test on animals. What is your opinion on this? Does a couple of hundred mice or other animals make a difference to you? Let's say that it is your only shot to prove some efficacy in your drug that otherwise would never get funding. This drug has to potential to save millions of people. Is this a necessary evil? What if we are the gerbils and mice to the QB? Ok, the entropy thing is kinda stupid in a pseudo science fiction sort of way. But we'll just substitute it with some other "for the greater good" ideal.

If you don't want to go into animals, how about the patients we use for actual clinical trials? Subjects for say a Phase III clinical trial are sick, in pain, or otherwise in need of medical attention with possibly a variety of things and are mostly volunteers. The drugs we find may kill them prematurely. But they were going to die anyway, and we found a safety risk because of them. Is this a necessary evil? They volunteered afterall to be test subjects. While some patients I guess wouldn't mind doing the greater good by showing there was a risk, I'm sure most of them are taking the drug in the hopes it is the miracle to make them better. To save them from a terminal illness or to relieve them of pain, etc.

Drug development is extremely hard, extremely time consuming, extremely expensive, and most of all, still imperfect. A lot of time and effort is going into designing better clinical trials, reducing costs, limiting risks, but if you think it is perfect and tested drugs never have issues you are sorely mistaken. That is reality.




Sure. Are you trying to use the definition "the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one"? Because that is not actually what occam's razor is technically. It is that you must have reason for bringing in plurality (basically extraneous assumptions and arguments) should not be brought in without cause. I am of course arguing that there is possibly cause beyond "it is evil". Occam's razor means we should tend toward the simpler theories, but it does not meant that the simplest theory is the right one.

/me claps. I don't understand why people are just stuck on believing QB is evil. Way to put it in perspective and use a way people are familiar to explain QB's actions.

And yes, there are many flaws in the law of parsimony, it doesn't apply in all situations.

Yup, I hope so too personally that they figure something out. I am just hoping it isn't TOO sweet and far fetched. Damn you Mai Hime -_-

Mai Hime holds a special place in my heart, though in my mind, it ended on episode 24.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by pikachuwei

omfgwtfuxbbq alienz in mah mahou shoujo?

i dont think ANYONE saw this coming XD

See my point, Reckoner?

Genre conventions are powerful things. Even for a deconstruction, many viewers will not dismiss them entirely.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by pikachuwei

omfgwtfuxbbq alienz in mah mahou shoujo?

i dont think ANYONE saw this coming XD

I dunno, I was pretty much betting that there would at least be one example of a Lovecraftian Horror (aliens).

[hyperborealis]

If QB seems to come out of left field with his concern for the heat-death of the universe, that incongruity points to the radical difference between his species and humanity. QB makes that point over and over: he does not really understand human moral objections to his scheme; lacking emotions, he cannot comprehend human feelings; and the essential human capacity to generate emotional energy is itself to him incomprehensible and inexplicable.

QB's relationship to humans is fundamentally incommensurate, lacking in any common moral referents, intentions, or purposes. I'm not even sure if choice or will describes QB's perspective: he strikes me as a kind of machine, like Mephistopheles, who exists purely to realize the goals of his cosmological program.

The show depicts QB not so much as evil as alien. He is understood not in his own terms, but by the girls' projections upon him. The girls' beliefs, their desires, their needs, their situation in the world they find themselves in are what the show finally cares about.

I think then that the viewer's moral outrage toward QB is misplaced. Madoka and Homura are tragic figures, not due to QB's deceitful contracts, but instead as a consequence of their mere existence in a world in which power comes inevitably with a cost, where nothing is got for nothing, and every happiness must be paid for in an equal currency of suffering.

Thus, the real tragedy of Sayaka's death is not that QB misled her, but that she deceived herself with her foolish idealism. The surest death-flag in this series is a character's adherence to the simplistic moral formulas of the mahou shoujo genre. Kyoko dies purely as an illustration of just this point.

Focusing on QB"s (real) perfidy obscures just how dark an anime this really is.

[Archon_Wing]

But does it really matter if he's an alien, a demon, or something else? He was obviously not of our known world.

If he said he was the personification of this thread, it would make as much sense as anything else.

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by Sackett

I'd just like to say that I'm with Madoka: "Then you really are our enemy".

I shouted out loud when she said that.

It's a very strong statement from her, remember this is Madoka is who is willing to trust and give almost anyone a second chance.

Yeah, that was my favorite part of an all-around awesome scene. "Because of your stupid reason..." "If that's the way you think, you really are our enemy." "I wanted you to understand what greater good your sacrifice serves. It's not working out, is it." "Of course not!" This more assertive, hostile Madoka is hot an interesting change of pace. Like Triple said once, Madoka has a less than average amount of malice in her heart, and that's part of what makes the Kyubey/Madoka dynamic interesting to me - ever since the Soul Gem revelation at the end of episode six, I've wondered whether Kyubey would ever turn Madoka against him, the girl so naive and innocent she thinks of a brutal fight to the death as 'an argument.' It was rewarding to see that she has indeed reached that point. I'm curious to see how Kyubey and Madoka relate in the three episodes remaining... I think that dreamy little heart-to-heart in front of the fountain where Kyubey pontificated about Madoka's potential as an omnipotent goddess might be the last friendly (Or even civil) exchange they have. Actually, I think this might be the last time they speak period until the ending... that scene has a 'last meeting' feel to it.

I was surprised that Witch Sayaka was killed off without causing any destruction, though. I was sure that she'd take revenge on Hitomi and Kamijou, at the least. I'm not really disappointed, though - I really enjoyed this episode as it is. Madoka's also my favorite character, and with the main cast whittled down to just Madoka, Homura, and Kyubey, there's pretty much no choice at this point but to return much of the spotlight to Madoka. I'm guessing that episode 10 will include a lot of interaction between Madoka and Homura, which I'm looking forward to... fuck, why can't every day of the week be Thursday? Seven days between each new episode is too much.

[alu546]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Bad end? Time loop? I don't think I could take another season. I can't have yet another favorite show involving lolis getting horrifically killed repeatedly. Can I? I wonder... I wonder.

Of course not, nipah! Oh wait Gen Urobuchi, you liar! I'd rather just take them home.
Seriously.

Well, i think it would beappropriate.

With the scale of the story being increasedso late, its hard to see thiis ending wih a summed good end. Its either going to be an end witth loose ends, or a bad end. Im thinking bad end, thus the theory.


This anime is ated M for Masochists.