Suisei no Gargantia - Episode 11 Discussion / Poll

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I don't think that religious fervor is necessary and I don't think that that's compatible with the philosophy of the alliance that puts humanity above everything else.

The symbol of the alliance is the vitruvian man (plus a woman), the symbol of these cultists is... something primitive which I don't even know what means but they have a big painting of Striker a machine that they revere as an envoy of God.

He's not trying to turn them into full GA members. He's trying to overturn centuries of inertia.

Anyway historically conquering nations never needed a strong faith to be militarily effective. Sure you have the Arabs, but Genghis Khan, Alexander and the Romans fared pretty well I think.

He isn't just trying to conquer. He's trying to completely change their societies. Also, he's trying to do with at most 4 people (including 2 AIs).

Besides, we don't know if the religion thing is a feature or a side-effect he's indifferent to. Or a necessity to get them to do things they consider non-sensical.

It seems to me that Kugel/Striker are more concerned about world domination than the threat of the Hideauze.

Ledo alone with just a bit of help from a few earthlings managed to eradicate an entire nest of whalesquids without much problem and without resorting to draconian measures.

But Ledo just wanted to deal with one nest of Earth-based Hideauze. Kugel wants the Earthlings to be able to deal with them themselves. And to restart walking the road of technological progress.

It's the difference between giving someone a fish and teaching someone to fish. Someone who doesn't necessarily want to learn.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

He's not trying to turn them into full GA members. He's trying to overturn centuries of inertia.

How is turning them into a mindless pack of sheep going to shake them out of their inertia? They don't even have a will of their own, they only do stuff because someone tell them what to do.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

He isn't just trying to conquer. He's trying to completely change their societies. Also, he's trying to do with at most 4 people (including 2 AIs).

How is this society better from a humanist perspective?
They aren't better than the Evolvers if they threw away their human pride and rationality and worship a machine.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Besides, we don't know if the religion thing is a feature or a side-effect he's indifferent to. Or a necessity to get them to do things they consider non-sensical.

Kugel/Striker would be still guilty, he has the power to stop primitive behaviors. In the first place he is trying to change society, so there's no excuse here.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

But Ledo just wanted to deal with one nest of Earth-based Hideauze. Kugel wants the Earthlings to be able to deal with them themselves. And to restart walking the road of technological progress.

Walking the path of technological progress by endorsing superstitious practices and idolatry? That doesn't work for me. This can only bring to a dark age not enlightenment.

Beside Pinion and his crew were already doing that without his meddling. As far as we know if we exclude the machine calibers he was actually in the most technologically advanced fleet. While Kugel/Striker were busy spreading their religion, Pinion was already retrieving lost technology.

[Guido]

This episode puts me to think about the implications that Kugel offered to Ledo.

In his own terms or maybe what he has been taught and experienced at the GA, Kugel wishes for the Earth's happiness. What he means with dignity of the human race, probably he refers to that the people of Earth should no longer continue wandering in a sort of dark Ages unknown to technological progress.

Technological progress must be brought forward upon the Earth and make humans free themselves from the stagnation that they've been living through, since they were left behind eras ago. Of course, everything must be done following the implementation of an orderly system so that Earthling humans can overcome through that transition smoothly.
This is akin to the philosophy and living standards at GA. I don't know if it's certain for me to say that the GA society and system works fine for them, because their environment is a closed one and must continue to strive and compete in order to continue evolving their civlization and making it more advanced.

Sure, humans on Earth have limited mobility, because they're forced to survive living aboard titanic-sized ships due that the Earth is mostly covered in ocean water and there's no dry land.

My point that I want to make is that GA humans and Earthling humans have different perspectives regarding their living environments, because of the differences in how they're borned, raised, taught, and interacting with their respective environments.
1. GA humans simply are taught from birth that they're at constant war with the Hideauze and must strive to the fullest of their potential to work as a race for the benefit of human civilization. I presume that GA humans are assigned or designated a specific role that they must fulfill.

2. Earthling humans are taught from birth that survival lies in the welfare of their families joining together to become communities that interact with and depend upon each other. They see no reason at all to provoke the whalesquids or to kill unnecessarily. Those statements apply to the Gargantia, Flange's fleet, and other fleets that wish to set their examples.

Now, I do not want to get to the topic about which humans are more flexible in their way of thinking, because that would be too biased against the GA humans.

GA humans like Ledo are, after all, humans and capable of both abstract and flexible thinking. They simply were raised and educated with the needed information to fulfill their specific roles to maximize the cost-benefit efficiency. Therefore, they saw no reason to divert from what the GA taught them, if it was for the benefit of their kind.

However, Earthling humans like Flange and Pinion digress about the implementation of Kugel's system, and, definitely, the Gargantia people also will as well. Even if they have to strive living from the ocean, they feel free to make individual choices and thinking independently. They do not see themselves as either soldiers or resources, but as people with individual thoughts that are capable of rallying together to form giant communities and co-existing in harmony with each other; they do not want to be imposed into an idea or system that would abruptly change their way of living, if displays of force or terror are used on them without provocation.

I think that Kugel is doing what he views is needed for the Earth to survive.
1. Well, given the nature of this show, saying that Kugel wants to conquer the Earth is absurd.
2. Also, I do not think that Kugel is interested to leave his mark or record in history for bringing Enlightment to the Earhtling humans.
3. There could be a vague possibility that Kugel now deems inefficient the current system that the GA uses to lead the human society in space. Hence, he intends to bring Enlightment upon the Earthling humans in order for them to build a more efficient and more orderly human society. However, that possibility is as well nigh, because coming from the same environment as Ledo, Kugel is just intending to implement on Earth the same GA's cost-benefit system.

[GreyZone]

Wow, the consensus, about who the mastermind is, has quite changed within a week...
Shortly after EP11 was released, most people seemed to be convinced that Striker was the mastermind and Kugel was still in stasis, sleep or simply fooled by Striker.
But now, shortly before EP12, it seem most are convinced that Kugel is alive after all. Well we will know soon enough..

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

How is turning them into a mindless pack of sheep going to shake them out of their inertia? They don't even have a will of their own, they only do stuff because someone tell them what to do.

Yeah, but the important thing is, they do stuff. They don't just... cruise around the same paths, do the same things, try to fish the same ruins of a distant past.

How is this society better from a humanist perspective?
They aren't better than the Evolvers if they threw away their human pride and rationality and worship a machine.

Striker is looking for technically gifted humans it can train into full engineers. It's about making new stuff, instead of recycling old stuff without making a serious effort to understand it.

Kugel/Striker would be still guilty, he has the power to stop primitive behaviors. In the first place he is trying to change society, so there's no excuse here.


Walking the path of technological progress by endorsing superstitious practices and idolatry? That doesn't work for me. This can only bring to a dark age not enlightenment.

Why did religion - and various religious practices - rise? I don't think it was just about the ambitions of a few and the gullibility of the many. I don't think a society without religion is automatically better than one with religion, all other things being equal. Or religious societies wouldn't have dominated so much of our history.

Treating the Hideauze - whether the bestial ones on Earth, or the ones in space which they've never seen - as an enemy worth all the sacrifices they make has to look pretty irrational for the Earthlings. Can they do it without religion being involved? Wouldn't they rather live in their comfortable, static routine rather than be force-marched to a strange future?

Beside Pinion and his crew were already doing that without his meddling. As far as we know if we exclude the machine calibers he was actually in the most technologically advanced fleet. While Kugel/Striker were busy spreading their religion, Pinion was already retrieving lost technology.

Pinion wasn't trying to understand the tech, he didn't have the ambition to make brand new stuff.

[jeroz]

Originally Posted by Guido

-snip-

Agreed. Again it comes down to context. GA's philosophy may be essential for them to survive in the ongoing war, but it's quite unnecessary for the people on Earth. It's highly possible that Kugel, having ignored everything about the culture of the people, thought that the GA way is the only way going forward. He's literally stuck in his own little world, stuck in his own ideas, stuck in his dated mentality, no different from a hikkikomori really.


...so this is a battle between an ex-NEET and a hikki at the rural setting.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yeah, but the important thing is, they do stuff. They don't just... cruise around the same paths, do the same things, try to fish the same ruins of a distant past.

Why do you think that salvaging is "doing nothing"? Considering their situation learning from existent advanced technology is a lot more time and cost efficient than coming up with those technologies from scratch.

I remind you of what Ridget proposed in episode 2 about Chamber. She wanted to disassemble it in order to study it.
Your assumption that they are content to use past technology without understanding it is denied right there. And this is from the current leader of Gargantia.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Striker is looking for technically gifted humans it can train into full engineers. It's about making new stuff, instead of recycling old stuff without making a serious effort to understand it.

From that side I'm perfectly okay, but again I can't see how can that be connected with piety.
In fact we have probably a thousand or more people that revere a machine caliber as a god and not a single one among them that has the talent to understand GA level technology.
From the other side you have a man that refers to machine calibers as "tin cans" and he happens to have the quality to understand them.

I'm not saying that this is a definitive proof, but perhaps as long as you consider advanced technology as something divine in nature you can't really understand it, and as soon as you understand it you can't really worship it.

This is why I think that the religious aspect of Striker's cult is negatively affecting their development.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Why did religion - and various religious practices - rise? I don't think it was just about the ambitions of a few and the gullibility of the many. I don't think a society without religion is automatically better than one with religion, all other things being equal. Or religious societies wouldn't have dominated so much of our history.

You think you can equate the major monotheistic religions with a sort of pharaonic cult? This isn't atheism vs religion here, Christians and Muslims are against the worship of false gods as much if not more than atheists are.
I'm not sure how much serious you are about this, but do you really think it's perfectly all right or necessary in any way to let or make people revere a leader as a divinity? Especially when that leader is perfectly conscious he isn't?

What would you think of someone doing that in the real world?

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Treating the Hideauze - whether the bestial ones on Earth, or the ones in space which they've never seen - as an enemy worth all the sacrifices they make has to look pretty irrational for the Earthlings. Can they do it without religion being involved? Wouldn't they rather live in their comfortable, static routine rather than be force-marched to a strange future?

What kind of sacrifices are truly necessary? What kind of sacrifices Pinion and the rest had to face in order to eradicate a whalesquid nest? Is eliminating the whalesquids from Earth truly necessary now that we know that they aren't much different from tigers and grizzlies?

I don't think that there's any indication of that. And as long as it isn't proven otherwise I can only think that Kugel/Striker are using the Hideauze menace as a mere excuse to impose their ideal society.
In fact they do not think of that as a necessary evil, but as an ideal in itself, regardless of the Hideauze.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Pinion wasn't trying to understand the tech, he didn't have the ambition to make brand new stuff.

See the first point, there is proof that Gargantians are striving for technological advancement and not the mere exploitation of old technologies.

Pinion was simply being realistic there, but Striker proposed to let him see the theories and the data to create new technologies, that's a whole different thing than reverse engineering.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Why do you think that salvaging is "doing nothing"? Considering their situation learning from existent advanced technology is a lot more time and cost efficient than coming up with those technologies from scratch.

I remind you of what Ridget proposed in episode 2 about Chamber. She wanted to disassemble it in order to study it.
Your assumption that they are content to use past technology without understanding it is denied right there. And this is from the current leader of Gargantia.

You have a point. I still think they lack ambition, or they'd have taken on the whalesquids long before.

From that side I'm perfectly okay, but again I can't see how can that be connected with piety.

Piety means you can make sacrifices (taxes) without an immediate, tangible result.

In fact we have probably a thousand or more people that revere a machine caliber as a god and not a single one among them that has the talent to understand GA level technology.
From the other side you have a man that refers to machine calibers as "tin cans" and he happens to have the quality to understand them.

And they haven't precisely asked him to convert, have they?

I'm not saying that this is a definitive proof, but perhaps as long as you consider advanced technology as something divine in nature you can't really understand it, and as soon as you understand it you can't really worship it.

This is why I think that the religious aspect of Striker's cult is negatively affecting their development.

Probably, but we go back to the question of whether he can achieve his goals without it.

You think you can equate the major monotheistic religions with a sort of pharaonic cult? This isn't atheism vs religion here, Christians and Muslims are against the worship of false gods as much if not more than atheists are.

Excuse me, but who said anything about the "major monotheistic religions"? Humanity has been around for much longer than they have, and practiced a lot of other religions.

As for "false gods", that's just them being presumptuous. Like they're any different. Like they haven't extracted resources from their believers. Like they haven't pushed people into strange behaviors.

I'm not sure how much serious you are about this, but do you really think it's perfectly all right or necessary in any way to let or make people revere a leader as a divinity? Especially when that leader is perfectly conscious he isn't?

I think they're silly, but that's what I think of any overly religious behavior.

What would you think of someone doing that in the real world?

I may not think much of religion, but I respect religious freedom as long as it doesn't inconvenience me.

And again, if the goal is to get them ready to go fight space monsters... While I would prefer rational discussion, I'm not entirely convinced it would work.

What kind of sacrifices are truly necessary? What kind of sacrifices Pinion and the rest had to face in order to eradicate a whalesquid nest? Is eliminating the whalesquids from Earth truly necessary now that we know that they aren't much different from tigers and grizzlies?

I don't think that there's any indication of that. And as long as it isn't proven otherwise I can only think that Kugel/Striker are using the Hideauze menace as a mere excuse to impose their ideal society.
In fact they do not think of that as a necessary evil, but as an ideal in itself, regardless of the Hideauze.

I think it's more of a habit.

But why do you exclude the space Hideauze from your thinking? I think what they're working on is how to give spaceflight to the Earthling so they can join the fight up there. The Earth-bound ones are just an appetizer.

[Funkatron]

It's not a lack of ambition; its a lack of knowledge. They only know how to barely operate their equipment now due to trial and error and study. They don't know everything about it and I bet they don't know all the basics on how it even works. They just know it does work and how to fix it up to a point. Doesn't mean they aren't trying to learn more about how it works so they can make their own

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I think they're silly, but that's what I think of any overly religious behavior.


I may not think much of religion, but I respect religious freedom as long as it doesn't inconvenience me.

And again, if the goal is to get them ready to go fight space monsters... While I would prefer rational discussion, I'm not entirely convinced it would work.

I realize I didn't express myself well.

What I meant is that while I personally am not religious, and don't understand religious fervor, I accept that some people are religious, and that it may have served societies well to have faithful amongst its populace. And that if you want a lot of people willing to set themselves on fire on your orders, you may well need religion, or something like it.

[Jan-Poo]

Great commanders didn't need to claim themselves to be gods to have people die for them. The way I've always seen the GA was as a society driven by a strong ideology, and ideologies can work as well as religions for that purpose.

I feel that Striker or Kugel somehow betrayed the spirit of the alliance by not giving enough trust to the very ideology they believed in if they thought it wasn't effective enough and that it had to be replaced with a faith in something that they don't even believe in.

If you don't draw a line, you might end up realizing that turning humans into mindless whalesquids is a more efficient way to reach the "galactic alliance's ideal of a perfect society". It becomes completely pointless if the human dignity isn't made a central point that can't be compromised for "efficiency" no matter what.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Great commanders didn't need to claim themselves to be gods to have people die for them. The way I've always seen the GA was as a society driven by a strong ideology, and ideologies can work as well as religions for that purpose.

But they aren't in the GA, talking to people raised in the GA, in the cold, barren space being besieged by space monsters. (And I did say "something like religion")

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

But they aren't in the GA, talking to people raised in the GA, in the cold, barren space being besieged by space monsters. (And I did say "something like religion")

Then what is the point?
I can recognize that trying to civilize a barbaric nation is a noble purpose even when misguided. From Striker/Kugel's perspective the objective should be to turn the earthling society into something close to the GA.

But they aren't doing so, they instead spread or anyway support ideals and practices that aren't proper of a civilized society under GA standards and they know it.

If they think they can't apply the GA way to them because they are "different", then they have failed from start. They have given up on a true civilization process. They settled for an aberration of the original ideal just because it was "easier".

[Anh_Minh]

It's moot after ep 12's reveals, but...

The point should have been to get people into space with technology they understood (as opposed to having a Machine Caliber giving them a lift, or even restored relics) on a large scale, and if possible get into contact with the GA. Everything could be solved after that, or at least it'd be somebody else's problem (especially as it may not happen in a human lifetime).

I don't necessarily see religion and civilization as opposing forces. As I said, religion is a way to get people to do things they don't understand. They don't have to be bad things.