2008-03-16, 01:12 | Link #962 | |
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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Also, they say that the trial is taking place at TSAB HQ. That'd be where her public defender would show up. Most Navy ships don't deploy with a JAG, y'know; they gotta wait till they get back to base to get the JAG officers to show up.
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2008-03-16, 02:11 | Link #963 | ||||||||||||||||||
Residential Nutcase
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Outer Cadia
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That is your opinion only. You do not have hard facts to back it up as well. Quote:
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Fantasy science as well. Quote:
Have = suggesting, must have is insisting. I never insisted. I only suggested. Quote:
You're talking only about the visible physical portion. I'm talking about the invisible fields. Your response to Keroko are not exactly relevant to what we are discussing. I already pointed out what I think about TK's theory, its fantasy science as well, not the hard science you're so fond of. |
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2008-03-16, 03:54 | Link #964 | ||
Blazing General
Join Date: May 2006
Location: CA
Age: 37
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In the Fate building-slam scene her barrier displaces the concrete in such a way that harm to her is averted. If her defenses can displace hundreds of kilos of concrete hitting her at fair speeds to protect her, they should be able to displace a simple knife. From there, the logic you offered takes over- it must not be a simple knife. The idea shouldn't be very hard to accept when all the other drones have magic-based weapons and magic-enhanced 'sharp pieces of metal' are used by several characters. Annnd expansion by editing: Quote:
And BTW it's not like mages making crazy zigzags is something we've never seen in Nanoha. BTW they make like 5 contacts in under 2 seconds, more evidence than when the animators aren't doing closeups the combat actually progresses quickly (or that mages can fight quickly when they want to, as you like, though then you'd have to invent some really preposterous bullshit to explain why they take it so easy the rest of the time). And since the characters actually come onscreen during the same 'shot' I don't really think you can call that 'random emissions.' Okay guys, what's all this crap about Scaglietti not using guns because he can't even imagine them? He uses missiles. He's obsessed with Old Belkan tech, and the Ancient Belkans didn't have the ban. The part about him not wanting to kill people I can accept (though he uses the missiles anyway), but it should certainly be within his mental capabilities to conceive of and engineer a firearm. Could it be that- gasp- firearms were considered antiquated and useless against magitech during the Belkan era? Actually, the fact that the Knights were considered dangerous- or anything other than idiots, really- back in the day says more for the effectiveness of barrier jackets against modern weapons than anything else. Though I guess since you guys are stuck on this 'barrier jacket appearance matters' thing you're going to say they probably were all in plate or something and that makes the difference.
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2008-03-16, 04:40 | Link #965 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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2a) It is Tk3997's theory, not mine. You can ask him for those details. Frankly, I don't like using inertial dampeners as a first choice myself due to fantasy factor, though as I said it is a unique weakness to his theory. 2b) Nevertheless, when you impact the ground, you decelerate. If you can somehow prevent that, then you can survive. 3) There's even less evidence of defenses that are vulnerable only to low speed attacks. All we are sure is that the mage somehow survived through a cloud of smoke, in which any of our three theories could have happened. I like my theory because it requires the least new fantasy elements. All it needs is a practical, real-world application of basic physics along with the already clearly established fantasy of barriers / shields. Quote:
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Now, good luck defining a mechanism where KE is not only bled off to the atmosphere (which by itself is not that hard, you can turn into into work heating by deformation and vent it to the atmosphere), but less energy and force has to reach the mage as energies and forcesget higher. Quote:
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And as a police force, they should know how to deploy quickly. But no. 3 hours just to prepare a platoon, and a 4th to deliver them (Nanoha A's).. In the whole Scarlietti incident, even on raised readiness, only one battalion (Nakajima's 308th) even moved into position as a unit. If any other battalions managed to move into position, we never saw them. Definitely no regimental commander showed up, which says that no regiment has deployed as a unit throughout the whole battle. The situation in the sky is the same. Hayate has control, thus implying she's the senior officer. Which means no unit higher than Squadron level managed to deploy as a unit. The Navy managed to move in six ships. Six. Sigh.... |
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2008-03-16, 06:04 | Link #966 |
"Begin, the operation!"
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See, this stuff is why I try to explain TSAB mishappenings in the series as the creators not knowing what they're talking about, and thus I make them semi-competent (to the best of my ability: I'm no tactical genius either ).
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2008-03-16, 06:25 | Link #967 |
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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Point. Many points.
I'm working on something that I'll post in here and OC as an idea on how the TSAB isn't exactly competant by military standards. It goes into OC because it references Erusia, which is an OC situation.
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2008-03-16, 08:58 | Link #968 | ||||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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1) Actually analyzing the scene, their speed only comes out to be around 70-100m/s, which is very fast for them, but not impossible. You'll notice they tired of this let's bash each other game after a few seconds (probably because of all the accelerations as they zigged and clashed - the brain can take several hundred Gs transient, but that will make it several - really about time for them to get groggy, and their other organs probably aren't taking it too either). 2) The authors accelerated time for the shots. Time manipulation is never my first choice, but it is always these low detail, few if any sounds scenes that get derailed from the Realtime Throne. Scenes that are timemarked with voices must keep their positions in the timeline. 3) SoD's Standard Anti-Blooper Defense (Variant): The TSAB canonically has few if any recordings of this battle. Most of the time, we know they can observe magical battles in remarkable visual detail using their Technical Means of Reconnaissance, but this time, such observation means are known to be blocked by a barrier. Thus, the combat details have to be reconstructed or plain imagined without the benefit of raw data, and the recreators took some liberties. This will explain, for example, why in that zigzag sequence they kept freezing for several frames, destroying the time resolution. Quote:
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They are reincarnated. They swear allegiance to their new master. Their new master tells them to get Linker Cores. They go and attack the local farmgirl who happens to have a big linker core. Fortunately, his daddy came to the rescue and shot the knight in the back with a rifle. The rest of them go down similarly in three days. Human casualties, zero. With all four knights gone, eventually the Book gets tired of waiting, devours its master completely and reincarnates. Wow. How memorable. This might be in the local news, but it'll soon be lost in the noise of other more mundane murderers. It certainly is not likely to get into a Book that can be easily searched for in the library. Maybe somewhere, in the Infinity Library, there is a newspaper scrap with the story I just wrote ... |
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2008-03-16, 14:57 | Link #969 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
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As an adjunct to that, in principle, what observation could show your theory to be false? The mechanics of the hypothesis as stated are such that I can't think of one. Quote:
I wonder by which standard the TSAB is competent.
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2008-03-16, 16:16 | Link #970 |
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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Right, I figure its time for concrete evidence on some parts of the discussion, so I asked the people over at the image thread whether they had the A's DVD booklets. Luckilly DmonHiro had them, so Ark, if you would take the honors of either confirming or otherwise crushing my beliefs on the Signum/Fate barrier clash from episode 7:
Oh, and there also was this one one Divine Buster Extension: Last edited by Keroko; 2008-03-16 at 16:32. |
2008-03-16, 16:50 | Link #971 | |
Field Medic
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"You are under arrest for violating Administration Bureau Laws. If you cease your hostilities and surrender, you may be granted the opportunity to plead in your own defence." Note the emphasis: IF you surrender, Tehn (and by implication, ONLY then), are you given the chance to plead in your own defence. Fate didn't surrender, and, by extension according to this statement (used several times in A's and StrikerS) therefore does not have the right to a defence. As a result, there is no lawyer because she has no right to one at this stage. Having not met the terms of the arrest statement, she isn't entitled to plead in her own defence, and therefore presumably doesn't have the right to have someone else plead in her defence either. If this is the case, Chrono's coaching may be his way of bending the rules slightly and giving her the benefits of a defence counsel she isn't ,strictly speaking, legally entitled to. |
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2008-03-16, 18:34 | Link #972 | |
~ I Do ~
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: In the XV-8A Spartan "00"
Age: 38
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2008-03-16, 18:55 | Link #973 |
Loveable Jerk
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I wouldn't put too much on stock on such a simple statement myself. The fact is that even today police don't acutally have to say anything about rights during or after an arrest "Reading of rights" is required to interrogate NOT arrest. It's also worth noting that despite the fact Hollywood has come up with a sort of "pop culture" standard version of Miranda the fact is the court specified no wording in it's ruling so the exact wording can vary from place to place so long as it expresses the core tenants of the warning. As for what you say to arrest someone really you can phrase your order to desist and submit to arrest however you please so long as it clearly implies your intent and will to detain the person. In fact stating any sorts of rights makes little sense in the context IMO and it’s rather more likely this is merely a standardized and somewhat elaborate take on “Cease and desist”, and bear in mind this is a magic girl show recall so something that sounds a bit more dramatic then “I’m placing you under arrest I'd advise you come quietly.” is just par for the coruse.
Last edited by Tk3997; 2008-03-16 at 19:07. |
2008-03-16, 19:16 | Link #974 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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[/quote] This one? Sorry. It just says that it has a longer range than previously, and that it is used to fire on enemies outside of "usual battle ranges" in "outranging sniping". It has "shocking speed" that can reach through the "outranging" distance in an "instant", precision and power that will support a "super long range" shoot and it has DB's shield drill through capability. All high level, showing the skill of Nanoha as a bombardment mage. The problem is, the entire blurb is filled with iffy words without quantitative references. Thus, they are defined by what is shown on screen, and "outranging" became ~100m ... at least according to the episode. "Shocking Speed" became 16m/s, and so on. |
2008-03-16, 19:19 | Link #975 | |||
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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....yeah. Oops. hurried post -_- And I even have a .pdf copy of it on my hard drive...
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Since the writers don't know any better, Ark, they're following a typical OCS route, which is a 3-month officer course, for the US Army and JSDF. Not for nothing are OCS grads called "90 Wonders" (or Blunders in the more disparaging version.) By the wording used in the manga, we do know it's OCS. Different places do have their OCS longer; Singapore's OCS is 38 weeks since they don't have an academy, but generally most OCS courses in the world are around 3 months, with 6 being the longest. Also, if the training is only 3 months, then it's curious that Hayate goes for extra training before screening for LTC. But wait, there's only 3 months training? How is that possible? Command and Staff College. You need this to qualify for COL and flag ranks, and since the TSAB apparently seems interested in bringing the ranks 1 down (Major in command of battalion instead of LTC, LTC commanding division instead of a full bird), this suggests that the extra training Hayate went in for to become a division commander IS Command and Staff College. Also, note that there's mentions of Genya training her and she being under his command. Since they met for the first time at the airport fire, it's likely that she was trained under him as part of her practicals post C&SC. Furthermore, Ark, a lot of officer training is on the job, taking place after they're comissioned. Even USMC OCS is 3 months, but then has several more months of The Basic School, aka turning Marine officers into infantrymen. Quote:
Okay, here's an experiment. Take a crisp dollar bill, or any crisp paper. Fold it three times, and run the sharp edge on your side, where Rein was grazed, while wearing a shirt. Even a scrath sends tingles up and down your side, doesn't it? Even if it doesn't penetrate, even if the graze only cuts the outer layer and scratches her, without bruising or drawing blood, it'll still hurt. That area of the body is quite sensitive. But less sensitive than there, obviously. On an aside: I personally don't mind BJs having less protection against guns. It makes my OCs more viable.
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2008-03-16, 19:36 | Link #976 | |
Loveable Jerk
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2008-03-16, 22:04 | Link #977 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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The officer part deserves a nice long answer, so wait for it. Quote:
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2008-03-16, 22:21 | Link #978 | |
Residential Nutcase
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Outer Cadia
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* tshouryuu drools at the silly thought of launching Fate at a wall, in her barrier jacket then strip her to make a complete medical check to see how much damage she suffers. * To show my hypothesis is false, all I need is for one screen shot that shows a mage impacting against a wall or something with a visible barrier/field activated behind the mage, since mages slamming into buildings/walls at great speed without visible barriers/fields activated makes up half of my observations. |
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2008-03-16, 23:08 | Link #979 |
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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Something that just occured to me on Hayate bringin in EArth's zeitgeist: She CAN'T.
Why? Because when you join a military, you are expected to leave your past and your ways behind, and conform to your service's zeitgeist - the most graphic example being USMC Boot Camp, which unlike USA Basic, is primarily focused on imparting the Marine ethos into enlistees (along with the basics of killing things; further instruction is then handled at the School of Infantry). Now, this isn't to say that it can't happen; there are historical examples of militaries adopting foreign concepts. Delta Force was heavily inspired by the SAS, and SEAL Team Six adopted the MP5 due to input from GSG-9. The British were the people who came up with the idea of snipers (though it was E.J. Land who refined the concept into today's Marine Scout Sniper). However, these examples are exceptions. In the casaes of beckwith and Marcinko, they got away with teh cross british contamination due to their backers - Chief of staff, and Planning Hean & CNO respectively. Hayate's backers are all political. She has no backers within the GF chain of command. If she is to introduce earth thinking, she can only do so once she gets stars.
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2008-03-17, 00:02 | Link #980 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Let me reorganize the paragraphs a bit to match my answering order.
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The United States OCS, in its modern incarnation, is AFAIK compensated by the fact that most of those who enter it are former enlisted and are taking it to codify a few things they had probably learnt for themselves on the field already. They might even be just getting the "Officer rubber stamp" more than learning much. They definitely are not 9-year old girls that hadn't even finished Primary Education... The other compensation that allows Western officer education to be relatively short is the strong NCO corps. The officers are effectively and knowingly sent out half trained, even after IOBC or TBS, and a sergeant or chief covers for their weaknesses while trying to finish training them OTJ during their platoon leader's tour. Even more senior NCOs advise company or even battalion commanders and NCOs handle most of the detailed technical tasks. From what we've seen (data we didn't have back when they first announced that Fate and Nanoha graduated from 3-month OCS), however, the NCO corps in the TSAB is clearly not of the required caliber to perform that duty. I mean, Reinforce II as the senior NCO? (Griffiths is a "Preparatory Ground Captain", so he's really an officer) How STRONG the NCO corps is! So that model clearly does not apply. When you've got a weak NCO corps, you need a strong officer corps to get the military moving. To get some idea of how long that takes, we might look at the Soviets, who have a weak NCO corps. They have over a hundred "Officers Higher Schools", all 4-5 years long. Any attempt to shorten this period ends miserably. In the 50s, the Soviet Navy (officer's education wasn't always 5 years long!) used to have some 2-3 year (that still makes it 12 times longer than OCS) long "Intermediate Schools" that gave a specialized education officers (say for Mine and Torpedoes) back in the 50s. Then they had "Higher Schools" that gave a general officer's education. Neither were satisfactory. The Intermediate Schools wound up producing officers that were OK in their one field. The Higher Schools wound up producing generalists that basically struggled everywhere. The Soviets wound up marginalizing the Intermediate Schools and extending the Higher School by years to cover a specialization. The Soviets did kind of have a ROTC program. Nobody liked what came out there either. They are forced to take more officers from civilian institutions these days for short service due to a shortage of Military Higher School cadre. The majority opinion is that almost all of them are useless - the officers that did come out of Higher Schools wind up doing their homework for them... At least the Soviets have cadre that can do homework. One wonders whether the homework just doesn't get done in the TSAB... They are now thinking about making some ten month OCS type courses (about the same length as say the Japanese officer program for civilian university grads), and are meeting resistance from "conservatives" who think adequate officers only come from 4-5 year Military Higher Schools. No doubt the "reformers" will try and use the Western examples like you do, but I think I'll side with the "conservatives" - in the current and near future Russian context, until they somehow build up a strong NCO corps (which arguably gets difficult with a strong officer corps), adequate officers will only come from long, specialized education. I suppose you can see my allegory to the TSAB. But back to those suckers. Quote:
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Fate's "Executive Officer" training certainly lacked in moral-psychological preparation and maybe investigative ability - seeing how fast Acous zoomed in on Scarlietti's cave in comparison. Chrono (and Lindy) allowed the Book of Darkness situation to disintegrate to the point they nearly had to Arc millions of Terrans. Japan was saved because completely untrained Nanoha, Fate and Hayate managed to come up with a better plan than the trained Asura crew... PME indeed... By the way, this "Executive Officer" thing explains why Hayate has no Assistant Commander. Fate, as an "Executive Officer" is the Assistant commander. At least this rids them of one massive crime. |
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