[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Ok, here's the bit of the bomb explanation from Our Confessions I had but didn't translate earlier. It's not very long, but I decided to release it now since there's not really a reason not to as it's unrelated to the epilogue.

The epilogue will be done soon. Maybe a day, maybe a week.

Just a reminder: This is when Beatrice had taken Krauss and Natsuhi down to the VIP room at gunpoint to show them the gold and had just claimed that she had control of the bomb device.

Spoiler for Bomb talk:

"Th, that's...! W, why would father set up such a bomb device on the island he lives on...!? (Natsuhi)
"Rokkenjima once had a secret naval base, and it had an enormous amount of explosives stored on it for the last-ditch war effort...... or so I've heard many times. And I vaguely remember that father said he would, when his luck came to an end, cleanly erase himself along with the island... or something like that..."

"Precisely. And that device is... a device inherited by the true head of the Ushiromiya family. In other words, only I can control it."
By activating it, the device can at any time cause a giant explosion...

Beato's explanation may not be convincing enough.
In that case, Genji will be there too.
If the same story also comes from Genji's mouth, it's credibility will solidly rise.

"...Yes. The time bomb device created by the former head-sama now belongs to a new master, Beatrice-sama."
"Th... that's..."
Hearing the same story from Genji, Natsuhi is at a loss for words.

And understandably so.
On the island she had spent so many years... was buried an enormous amount of explosives. They could have, at Kinzo's slightest whim...... or by some kind of coincidental accident, massively exploded.
Natsuhi was petrified at the reality... that she was still living on such an island even now.

"...I, I see. It's a frightening story. But, aren't those explosives from the war era? I don't think they'd explode now..."
"There are no problems. The head-sama had periodic inspections carried out."
"Kukkukku. We also tested them, of course. They demonstrated their power. At the very least, easily everything within several hundred meters of the mansion will be completely blown away."
"An explosives test...?"
"Indeed. To assess the power of the explosives, I blew up a certain object...
It's something you two are quite familiar with."

Krauss and Natsuhi look at each other.
They don't remember there being any kind of big explosion anywhere nearby.
Shrugging her shoulders with a smile, Beato signals to Genji to explain it to them.

"......Master, milady. Have you forgotten? ...About the local shrine?"
"The local... shrine...?"
The local shrine built on the reef just a little ways out from Rokkenjima's port.
Last year it was demolished by some large wave or lightning or something......
...They hadn't really thought about it much.
But, there's no way some large wave would wash away the whole shrine, let alone the reef.
There was a group among the servants who said purple lightning fell from the sky and smashed the shrine... or some such rumor. But there's no such thing as purple lightning, much less lightning that could smash a shrine and even destroy the reef.

"......You don't mean...... no........."
"Kukkukku! Yes, that's how it is. To celebrate my resurrection I had that shrine and the reef blown away! But to think they'd have that much power! I thought it would be great if they blew up the shrine, but I never imagined they would blow up the reef as well! The weapons of humans are truly dreadful."

"......Ok. We understand the situation. ...So...? You invited us here and had us listen to year story. I'm trying to think of what you seek to get out of that. With all that gold piled there... I can't fathom you having want for money. ......I'm thinking that... you couldn't be telling us Rokkenjima's secret from a change of heart, could you...?"

Following is the remainder of this so-called "omitted" section that I really have no source for...

I find the whole thing where Genji just kind of magically appears there because it's convenient for the author pretty amusing.

I so love you for all your hard work translating this...
though I've to say the more I read about the bomb, the less I find it believable.
So now Kinzo even had guys who went to check if all his insane amount of explosive worked well?
And Beato carelessly says she managed to blow up the shrine without problems even if she supposedly isn't a bomb expert...

-_-

I wish the right solution was this is an embellishment, Battler and Eva escaped in the tunnel for reason X (maybe to escape from the real killer for example) and that the explosion was caused by some other thing that's not one ton of WW2 explosive carelessly forgotten behind by the Japanese and connected to a random clock.

[Drifloon]

Well, that may be the case. This is all just the solution to the gameboards anyway. We'll never know the truth of Prime, if Ryukishi ever even thought of one, so believe what you want.

[Captain Bluebeard]

Acually, the truth is that Beatrice is a hermaphrodite alien spieces that excretes the hallucinatory subsastance of Purupurupikopuyo while "doing it".

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Drifloon

Well, that may be the case. This is all just the solution to the gameboards anyway. We'll never know the truth of Prime, if Ryukishi ever even thought of one, so believe what you want.

The part of Our Confession just translated actually provides a hint to that:

On the island she had spent so many years... was buried an enormous amount of explosives. They could have, at Kinzo's slightest whim...... or by some kind of coincidental accident, massively exploded.

In fact, the entire discussion and subsequent explanation of how much effort was necessary to keep the explosives in working order only supports the notion that they would in Prime have probably fallen into disrepair and could easily have just gone off on their own.

Incidentally, I think such an interpretation would lend more credibility to post-incident writing of the message bottles (i.e. "this incident happened accidentally, so I will write stories where it was done deliberately and make up an excuse as to how"). But that's pretty much up in the air as far as argument goes, I guess.

[RandomAvatarFan]

Incidentally, I think such an interpretation would lend more credibility to post-incident writing of the message bottles (i.e. "this incident happened accidentally, so I will write stories where it was done deliberately and make up an excuse as to how"). But that's pretty much up in the air as far as argument goes, I guess.

I mean, in EP8 was still have the whole "No one is to blame" spin in Battler's game. Sacrificing one's self to be a scapegoat comes up too. We also have the fact that Ange did not appear in Yasu's tales, something Yasu would not have been able to know about until much closer to the date of the conference, not enough time to have written those stories before the banquet anyway.

[Ryuudou]

Originally Posted by Renall

The part of Our Confession just translated actually provides a hint to that

Which part was just translated?

[Daniel E.]

It has come to our attention that several people here are linking to scanlation sites that offer licensed content. This is a clear violation of our rules and something that can easily get your account banned. It does not matter wich part of the site you are linking to, simply doing so is enough to earn you a Warning and/or infraction.

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[Kiltias]

Questions if I may:

How are conversations during magical scenes interpreted?

It's just me but I just find some sense behind Belphegor mentioning Rudolf having anticipated the 2 Sisters with him mentioning that "Ever since the time Rosa was killed he had a general Idea."

2nd:
Why are the stakings so awkward in EP3?

5 not 7.
And weren't Natsuhi and Krauss staked weird as well with the thigh and foot despite the other 3 fitting?

I can remember someone saying no staking is needed for the 2nd and 3rd though why the sudden change compared to EP 1 and 2?

EP 1: Eva and Hideyoshi perhaps weren't actually staked and it was staged?
EP 2: Kanon not getting staked may be self-explainantory.Still beatrices line regarding Jessica sorta bothers me.
When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room
"[Whoops, the corpse of] Jessica is also included"

Why the sudden change in red in terms of her corpse?
Sounds like her corpse was discovered yet there is no corpse in her room.

Terribly sorry for bothering!

[SonozakiUshiromiya]

@Kiltias
It's probably more of a timing issue. When Jessica's body is discovered, she isn't dead, but is badly wounded. Since there's no one competent to help her, she bleeds to death. Then Beatrice says her red.

[Drifloon]

Is there really any need for her to say the "corpse of" part in red? I don't think there's any significance about it; the red/blue statements are often started mid-sentence for no obvious reason, for example:

- The six linked rooms, the murders of Rosa oba-san and Maria, Dad and the rest's deaths in the hall, the murders of Krauss oji-san and Natsuhi oba-san...all of that can be explained if we suppose that Eva oba-san was the culprit.

- Know that my window is sealed from the inside and Natsuhi did not let Kinzo escape...!!

It's just me but I just find some sense behind Belphegor mentioning Rudolf having anticipated the 2 Sisters with him mentioning that "Ever since the time Rosa was killed he had a general Idea."

Wasn't that about EVA-Beatrice rather than the stakes? I took that to mean that Rudolf already suspected that Eva was the culprit back when Rosa was killed. And we pretty much know why, what with Kyrie's deductions regarding the cigarette butt.

2nd:
Why are the stakings so awkward in EP3?

5 not 7.

The epitaph doesn't actually say that the second twilight victims need to be staked. EP4 doesn't have them staked either, IIRC. Also, Rosa's murder was almost certainly unintentional, so it's not really a surprise that Eva didn't have stakes prepared.

And weren't Natsuhi and Krauss staked weird as well with the thigh and foot despite the other 3 fitting?

I think Our Confession has a line somewhere about there being a danger of the stakes falling out, if that's what you mean. I don't actually remember anything odd about how Natsuhi and Krauss were staked in EP3.

I can remember someone saying no staking is needed for the 2nd and 3rd though why the sudden change compared to EP 1 and 2?

The 3rd? The third twilight doesn't involve any murder. Also, the lack of stakes on the second twilight post-EP2 may simply be because there was a change of author after that episode, in-universe.

EP 1: Eva and Hideyoshi perhaps weren't actually staked and it was staged?

Uh, Battler witnessed Eva's corpse, didn't he? I mean, he also witnessed Kanon's, but the stake had been "pulled out". Eva's was still stuck in her forehead, I believe.

[Kiltias]

[QUOTE=Drifloon;4398919]Is there really any need for her to say the "corpse of" part in red? I don't think there's any significance about it; the red/blue statements are often started mid-sentence for no obvious reason, for example:

/QUOTE]

Just seemed odd to me.

Wasn't that about EVA-Beatrice rather than the stakes? I took that to mean that Rudolf already suspected that Eva was the culprit back when Rosa was killed. And we pretty much know why, what with Kyrie's deductions regarding the cigarette butt.

I know.I'm asking if we can take that literal even if its a magic scene.
As in:
Can we take from these sentences that Rudolf indeed suspected Eva and anticipated an ambush despite it being magical.
You see, I was thinking that EP 3 has just quite a relation to EP7 in terms of events work pretty much perfect like a mirror.

Also, Rosa's murder was almost certainly unintentional, so it's not really a surprise that Eva didn't have stakes prepared.

Yasu was present though.

I think Our Confession has a line somewhere about there being a danger of the stakes falling out, if that's what you mean. I don't actually remember anything odd about how Natsuhi and Krauss were staked in EP3.

Its supposed to be Knee and Leg not Thigh and Foot.
Only stakings that weren't done according the Epitaph.

The 3rd? The third twilight doesn't involve any murder. Also, the lack of stakes on the second twilight post-EP2 may simply be because there was a change of author after that episode, in-universe.

2nd is what I meant sorry.

Nice idea.

[Kealym]

Originally Posted by Kiltias

Just seemed odd to me.

Hmm, agreed that it's odd. Also agreed that it's probably insignificant. If anything, maybe Beato wanted to leave a small space for a Jessica culprit answer at the moment. Probably just insignificant though.

Originally Posted by Kiltias

I know.I'm asking if we can take that literal even if its a magic scene.
As in:
Can we take from these sentences that Rudolf indeed suspected Eva and anticipated an ambush despite it being magical.
You see, I was thinking that EP 3 has just quite a relation to EP7 in terms of events work pretty much perfect like a mirror.

Well, fantasy scenes are in that awkward place. Where you can't take them too literally, cause they are deceptive ... but they also have clues. I think most people here agree with you that Rudolfs line was a clue that "he suspected Eva was the culprit".

I don't see much of a correlation with EP7, though ... EP7 was just Kyrie on a random ass rampage. She didn't bother trying to lie to anybody (except George and Jessica, a little) or create any alibis or mysteries. It was just "this person isn't me or Rudolf. SHOOT SHOOT STAB STAB" for a motive that makes no sense.

Originally Posted by Kiltias

Yasu was present though.

Well ... I disagree about this.

Originally Posted by Kiltias

Its supposed to be Knee and Leg not Thigh and Foot.
Only stakings that weren't done according the Epitaph.

Well, Natsuhi's was alright (in the calf) ... dunno what was up with Krauss's. Noone else got in in the thigh. [/QUOTE]

[Drifloon]

I don't see much of a correlation with EP7, though ... EP7 was just Kyrie on a random ass rampage. She didn't bother trying to lie to anybody (except George and Jessica, a little) or create any alibis or mysteries. It was just "this person isn't me or Rudolf. SHOOT SHOOT STAB STAB" for a motive that makes no sense.

I think he was probably referring to the main EP7 rather than the tea party. Specifically, how most of the scenes in Yasu's story have fantastical/illusionary elements, but they still provide a good idea of what actually happened.

But yeah, I don't really think Yasu was present during Rosa and Maria's deaths. The fantasy scene could be taken to suggest that, but Eva doing it by herself makes a lot more sense to me. Of course, even if she was there, it doesn't really create an inconsistency with the staking since she doesn't stake the second twilight in EP4 either, so attributing it to the author change probably works better.

[Kiltias]

Originally Posted by Kealym

I don't see much of a correlation with EP7, though ... EP7 was just Kyrie on a random ass rampage. She didn't bother trying to lie to anybody (except George and Jessica, a little) or create any alibis or mysteries. It was just "this person isn't me or Rudolf. SHOOT SHOOT STAB STAB" for a motive that makes no sense.


Well ... I disagree about this.

Well, Natsuhi's was alright (in the calf) ... dunno what was up with Krauss's. Noone else got in in the thigh.

[/QUOTE]

I was thinking along the lines of a mirror effect.
Kyrie and Rudolf Investigate suspecting Eva and battling Evatrices furniture.
Kyrie and Rudolf rampage with Eva putting a stop to them.

Eva killed Battler.
Battlers fate is unknown.

The number of shots fired by Kyrie and Rudolf in EP 3 fits to the number of people they killed in EP 7 if Shannon and Kanon = 1.

I remember reading on the wiki something like:
Maria: The corpse leaves no traces of abuse.
In contrast: Maria strangled to death.


Yasu HAS to have been there.
Evatrice = the King in this Chessgame.
Rudolf pinned the King and the Rook.Evatrice said it herself.Kyrie and Rudolf thought they checkmated the King and are proven Bishops with Hideyoshi potentially aiding them as the White Knight.
Several indications put Maria as the Black King such as her status in each EP except where Kyrie and Rudolf rampaged.Her status implies several stalemates with the White King Battler.
However, a King cannot "Kill" another King in Chess as they cannot move next to another nor can they check each other.
The reason for this is because if Kings are next to another they check each other which is an illegal move.
In other words, by Chess Logic, Eva cannot kill Maria.
Thats why we see Beatrice doing so.
Here's what probably happened:
Maria/Black King was in a hopeless position on the board after Rosa was killed.
Beatrice/Yasu resigned/gave up and fell her own King/killed Maria.
From here on, Evatrice had opened a new game replacing Maria.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Kiltias

Questions if I may:

How are conversations during magical scenes interpreted?

It's just me but I just find some sense behind Belphegor mentioning Rudolf having anticipated the 2 Sisters with him mentioning that "Ever since the time Rosa was killed he had a general Idea."

I guess it depends from scene to scene.
For example the conversation between Kyrie and one of the stakes is usually interpreted as a way to give additional information about how jealous Kyrie was of Asumu.

Originally Posted by Kiltias

2nd:
Why are the stakings so awkward in EP3?

5 not 7.
And weren't Natsuhi and Krauss staked weird as well with the thigh and foot despite the other 3 fitting?

There were attempts to interpret ep 3 as a game in which Eva solved the epitaph but things went wrong anyway. Since someone solved the epitaph murders should have stopped so since they continued it was suspected Yasu might not have been the only killer ence some facts went oddly.

It's just a theory though and not universally shared so do with it what you want.

Originally Posted by Kiltias

I can remember someone saying no staking is needed for the 2nd and 3rd though why the sudden change compared to EP 1 and 2?

No idea as I wondered the same thing. The previous theory might explain it (if someone else killed Rosa and Maria that someone else might not have had the stakes and so no staking) though then we would have to explain why Yasu resumed the killing as she was the one who murdered Nanjo.

Originally Posted by Kiltias

EP 1: Eva and Hideyoshi perhaps weren't actually staked and it was staged?

It could be they believed they would have to fake being killed but I think in the end they were killed for real as it always happens to those who believes they're playing a murder game.

Originally Posted by Kiltias

EP 2: Kanon not getting staked may be self-explainantory.Still beatrices line regarding Jessica sorta bothers me.
When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room
"[Whoops, the corpse of] Jessica is also included"

Why the sudden change in red in terms of her corpse?
Sounds like her corpse was discovered yet there is no corpse in her room.

Terribly sorry for bothering!

I wonder if it was to make the red tricky. In this way, if Battler asks her to repeat something in red she can insist on the word 'corpse'.
If the word 'body' had come up, maybe due to Battler's prompting her to repeat in red something, then Kanon's body was there as well as Shannon and Kanon share the same body.

However this might work in English. I don't know if in Japanese it would still work but that's how I interpreted the scene.

[Kealym]

Originally Posted by Kiltias

I was thinking along the lines of a mirror effect.
Kyrie and Rudolf Investigate suspecting Eva and battling Evatrices furniture.
Kyrie and Rudolf rampage with Eva putting a stop to them.

Eva killed Battler.
Battlers fate is unknown.

Let me start by saying that I don't wanna be rude or anything ... but could you clarify? I'm still not seeing much of a link between EP3 and EP7, specifically, other than "Eva survives".

Originally Posted by Kiltias

The number of shots fired by Kyrie and Rudolf in EP 3 fits to the number of people they killed in EP 7 if Shannon and Kanon = 1.

I'm pretty sure that's not true. I don't think something like that would hold much value on it's own even if it were true, but I'm almost sure they only fired like 5 or 6 shots, between them, in that scene?

Originally Posted by Kiltias

I remember reading on the wiki something like:
Maria: The corpse leaves no traces of abuse.
In contrast: Maria strangled to death.

Well ... so? What does this mean besides that the one time we KNOW Yasu killed Maria, she did it as passively as possible?

Originally Posted by Kiltias

Yasu HAS to have been there.

"HAS to have been there" ... based on what? The end result seems to imply much more that she wasn't.

Originally Posted by Kiltias

Evatrice = the King in this Chessgame.
Rudolf pinned the King and the Rook.Evatrice said it herself.Kyrie and Rudolf thought they checkmated the King and are proven Bishops with Hideyoshi potentially aiding them as the White Knight.
Several indications put Maria as the Black King such as her status in each EP except where Kyrie and Rudolf rampaged.Her status implies several stalemates with the White King Battler.
However, a King cannot "Kill" another King in Chess as they cannot move next to another nor can they check each other.
The reason for this is because if Kings are next to another they check each other which is an illegal move.
In other words, by Chess Logic, Eva cannot kill Maria.
Thats why we see Beatrice doing so.
Here's what probably happened:
Maria/Black King was in a hopeless position on the board after Rosa was killed.
Beatrice/Yasu resigned/gave up and fell her own King/killed Maria.
From here on, Evatrice had opened a new game replacing Maria.

Well, thisis the point where I have to stress that I mean no disrespect, but ... that makes no sense. It's both highly arbitrary, and blatantly contrary to how we're told a witch's game is constructed. I think you're probably assuming a number of allusions correlate to some hard, concrete laws, but, I mean, Occams Razor, man.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Kiltias

EP 2: Kanon not getting staked may be self-explainantory.Still beatrices line regarding Jessica sorta bothers me.
When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room
"[Whoops, the corpse of] Jessica is also included"

Why the sudden change in red in terms of her corpse?
Sounds like her corpse was discovered yet there is no corpse in her room.

I had always thought that line was suspicious from the moment I read it. As far as I'm concerned, there's no red that guarantees Jessica was dead at the time.

Originally Posted by SonozakiUshiromiya

@Kiltias
It's probably more of a timing issue. When Jessica's body is discovered, she isn't dead, but is badly wounded. Since there's no one competent to help her, she bleeds to death. Then Beatrice says her red.

I think the first red only applies to the time as Battler understood it, and not to the actual state of things at that time. There's an example of this in EP5: Ushiromiya Battler returned to the cousins' room at 3:00 AM and fell asleep. After that, until the discovery of the crime, absolutely nothing out of the ordinary happened in the room! Yet in fact we know there was no crime there in the first place. In other words "the discovery of the crime" is a point in time and doesn't tell us anything about whether the crime was actual or not.

Originally Posted by Drifloon

Is there really any need for her to say the "corpse of" part in red? I don't think there's any significance about it; the red/blue statements are often started mid-sentence for no obvious reason, for example:

- The six linked rooms, the murders of Rosa oba-san and Maria, Dad and the rest's deaths in the hall, the murders of Krauss oji-san and Natsuhi oba-san...all of that can be explained if we suppose that Eva oba-san was the culprit.

- Know that my window is sealed from the inside and Natsuhi did not let Kinzo escape...!!

I noticed you chose examples that create incomplete sentences out of the red and blue portions, but they come out that way entirely due to translation issues. As far as I know, the only times that colored portions actually made incomplete sentences is when the speaker was interrupted mid-sentence.

Japanese often doesn't use sentence subjects, so (It) can be explained if we suppose that Eva oba-san was the culprit. would be the standalone sentence version for your first example.

Japanese doesn't use "a" or "the", so (The) window is sealed from the inside and Natsuhi did not let Kinzo escape...!! would be the standalone sentence version for your second example.

Originally Posted by Kealym

If anything, maybe Beato wanted to leave a small space for a Jessica culprit answer at the moment. Probably just insignificant though.

I think you're right, on both accounts. It doesn't mean she isn't dead at the time, just that she doesn't have to be.

[Ryuudou]

Do the Van Dine rules presented in EP7 apply to the Rokkenjima gameboards?

Will's red when he solves a separate case at the beginning: It is forbidden for a servant to be the culprit! ...Van Dine's Twenty Rules, Rule #11

[AuraTwilight]

If it does, there's still no contradiction. The culprit isn't a servant, it's the head of the Ushiromiya family posing as a servant.

And the spirit of the rule is important. In Van Dine's time, servants in mystery novels were usually paper-thin Redshirts that could be sacrificed as the villain without any fleshed out "real" characters having to be punished. What the rule is actually forbidding is the culprit being some throwaway character who's completely expendable, such as Genji, who has basically no personality.

[Drifloon]

To be fair, though, the actual justification given by Van Dine for that rule is that the culprit shouldn't be someone who would ordinarily come under suspicion, or in other words, someone who isn't "obvious". Considering the amount of times that the servants get suspected because of the master keys, making one of them the culprit DOES sort of violate the spirit of the rule. But in the end, Ryukishi repurposes a lot of the Knox/Dine rules, so it doesn't really matter.