Madoka Magica - Episode 05 Discussion / Poll

[Guardian Enzo]

Blog post on this week's depressing episode.

Sayaka may have already broken the modern record for death flags for a single character...

In terms of the larger story, while a lot of Faust parallels are sort of obvious, I'm starting to see a resemblance to "Star Wars". I'm put in mind of the scene in "Revenge of the Sith" when Anikan and Palpatine are talking at the opera (easily the best scene in the prequel trilogy) and the old bastard is extolling the virtues of the dark side to make "miracles" happen. Like Palpatine, Kyuube appears to prey on his victim's attachments to others and fear of loss, and those are pretty effective arguments. Perhaps the reason Kyuube wants Madoka so badly is that she represents a threat to him and his magical child prostitution racket unless he brings her over to his side. Is she the Luke Skywalker to his Emperor?

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Blog post on this week's depressing episode.

Loved your blog post. That's pretty much my own take on the series too, and I also hope Madoka doesn't end up on the wrong side of the "force".

[antigone]

man, what a letdown.

i thought that redhead magical girl would end up breaking the common stereotypes for villains, but she didn't.

i also didn't appreciate the predictability of Homura saving the day.

Worst episode out of the five, for sure.

[DragoZERO]

That was so awesome. Oh man, everything, just brilliant. The use of shadows, and the placement of everything, the water drops, the sun on the roof, so impressive. The music is great too, really follows whats going on, not like it's out of place or anything.

I am trying to ignore all of Sayaka's death flags. I don't want to be focusing on when every character is going to die, I want to enjoy everything... but she has way too many.

I was so involved with the fight and Madoka, I didn't even think of Homura saving the day, even if it may have been predictable. And the ending with Homura flipping her hair, sweet taunt. I really did get sucked this episode and was left hanging at the end, how could they end it there, ahh.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Blog post on this week's depressing episode.

Key excerpt from that blog, for discussion purposes: Another depressing week of Mahou Shoujo antics as Kyuube cements his place in the evildoers hall-of-fame alongside the likes of Gendo Ikari and Takeuchi from Bokura Ga Ita (ducks).

Cements his place in the evildoers hall-of-fame? Based on what he did in Episode 5?

Seriously, Guardian Enzo?

Wow... I mean, really, WOW.

How has Kyubey been "cemented" as an "evildoer", let alone one that goes to a "hall-of-fame"?


You know, I'm truly getting tired of everybody acting like Kyubey is the established big bad of this anime. There is simply no concrete evidence of any such thing yet.


Some people don't like his methods...

Well, at least Kyubey is giving the girls a choice. Most of the standard "mascot" type characters in magical girl animes that I've seen pretty much force themselves on the lead magical girl, and won't take "no" for an answer.

Cerberus, of Card Captor Sakura fame, could be very demanding and pushy. Some of those Clow Cards he sent Sakura after made for pretty dangerous foes too.

And even Luna and Artemis, of Sailor Moon fame, were practically like taskmasters in their approach to their Sailor Scout "Slaves" (which I'm sure some folks would be calling them if Sailor Moon just started airing Winter 2011 ). Usagi couldn't slack off for a few moments without Luna getting on her case.

How exactly is Kyubey dramatically worse than all the other "mascot" type characters of magical girl animes? He's probably worse than Yuuno, of Nanoha fame, but that would be about it. At least from what I've seen.


But then, there are the faust hints...

Fair enough. That's enough to warrant speculation. It's not enough to act like a guy is already an established major antagonist, though.


Here's what I think - I think that a lot of folks have always found the "mascot" type characters of magical girl anime really annoying. And now they're given one that's possibly a villain (or at least an antagonist), so now he becomes a lightning rod for years and years of annoyance with magical girl "mascot" characters. The fact that I've seen a lot of people insult Kyubey's physical appearance (which is not at all out of the ordinary for a "mascot " type character) is a big part of the reason why I think that.

Hey, I tend to dislike those overly used, and typically pushy and hard-driving, mascot characters myself. But then the funny thing is that Kyubey may be the least pushy of them all, Yuuno notwithstanding. I like how he's giving the magical girls an actual say in the matter, because believe me, they don't always get to have one...

[Guardian Enzo]

To each his own interpretation. Time will tell - so far Kyuube has reminded me first of a sexual predator, then Palpatine - which should give you some idea how confident I am about its moral center.

For the record, your straw man notwithstanding I have no problem generally with "mascot" or familiar characters - hell, I even liked Yuuno a little. I just happen to have complete biblical certitude based on its behavior through five 5 episodes that Kyuube is thoroughly evil. It's manipulative, deceitful, and throws up just about every baddie flag in the book. If I'm wrong I'm wrong, but I'm convinced plenty for my own comfort level. As I said, time will tell.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

For the record, your straw man

I made no straw man arguments in my reply to you. Honest speculation (i.e. "Here is what I think") is not a straw man argument.

...notwithstanding I have no problem generally with "mascot" or familiar characters - hell, I even liked Yuuno a little. I just happen to have complete biblical certitude based on its behavior through five 5 episodes that Kyuube is thoroughly evil. It's manipulative, deceitful, and throws up just about every baddie flag in the book.

Batman can be very manipulative, and deceitful. That doesn't make him a villain.

And it's not uncommon for magical girl mascot/familiar characters to play on the emotions of the magical girl. To kind of manipulate them into doing what they want them to do. And almost all magical girl mascot/familiar characters keep some secrets from their magical girls. Heck, even Yuuno forgot to tell Nanoha that he was really a human-esque boy, and not a ferret.


Look, it's fine if you subscribe to the theory that Kyubey is an evil villain. But until that's established on-screen, saying that he's "cemented" as one, strikes me as a bit much.

[Kaijo]

It would be very amusing if those "bad guy" flags were tossed out as red herrings. And in the end, Kyube sacrifices himself, or allows himself to be sacrificed, to end the system.

In other words, the writers are fucking with you.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

It would be very amusing if those "bad guy" flags were tossed out as red herrings. And in the end, Kyube sacrifices himself, or allows himself to be sacrificed, to end the system.

If his total lack of empathy and opportunistic nature is properly explained in the show, then I don't mind this. But I seriously doubt they can pull off that in a convincing manner. Just my two cents.

[Guardian Enzo]

I certainly don't want to argue over definitions, but if you say you think my argument is based on the fact that I have a bias against mascot characters when I make absolutely no mention of any mascot character other than Kyuube, that's a straw man.

In any case all I'm saying is that I'm completely confident - anyone else can feel differently if they like. As long as what I've seen is enough to convince me that the issue is settled, I can think whatever I want to think. I think a good analogy would be global warming - one person may feel that they've seen enough evidence that the existence of global warming as a human-influences phenomenon is a verifiable fact. Someone else may look at the same evidence and feel differently. On that issue and this one, I feel I've seen enough to convince me. Not everyone is going to feel the same way.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

If his total lack of empathy and opportunistic nature is properly explained in the show, then I don't mind this.

How do we know he lacks empathy?

My interpretation of Kyubey's conversation with Kyoko in Episode 5 is that he was trying to talk her out of going after Sayaka. That he was doing this to prevent the two magical girls from clashing with each other. That could indicate empathy.

In any event, not everybody is good at expressing empathy. That doesn't mean that they totally lack it. I know a lot of men that have a hard time expressing empathy, but that doesn't mean that they don't have it at all.

Now Kyubey is opportunistic. I never thought that being opportunistic was something to be ashamed of, though. Most people I know see it as a positive trait, the opposite of hesitant or indecisive.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I certainly don't want to argue over definitions, but if you say you think my argument is based on the fact that I have a bias against mascot characters when I make absolutely no mention of any mascot character other than Kyuube, that's a straw man.

I'm saying that I think this is where some of the more critical takes on Kyubey may be coming from, not necessarily yours specifically.

Since you're saying that this isn't a factor for you, I'll take you at your word.

In any case all I'm saying is that I'm completely confident - anyone else can feel differently if they like. As long as what I've seen is enough to convince me that the issue is settled, I can think whatever I want to think. I think a good analogy would be global warming - one person may feel that they've seen enough evidence that the existence of global warming as a human-influences phenomenon is a verifiable fact. Someone else may look at the same evidence and feel differently. On that issue and this one, I feel I've seen enough to convince me. Not everyone is going to feel the same way.

Fair enough.

[Kaijo]

To be clear, people like Triple R and myself are fine with people thinking Kyube has some hidden motivation, or may not be totally upfront. Or that he may be a bad guy.

We're just saying there is no concrete evidence yet. It's a neat literary distraction technique, where you portray a seemingly bad character as a crone or a witch or a thief or something, but in the end, find out that appearances were deceiving.

[Guardian Enzo]

I sense great financial potential here if some Vegas sports book wants to step in and start a betting line on this...

[hoarfrost]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

To be clear, people like Triple R and myself are fine with people thinking Kyube has some hidden motivation, or may not be totally upfront. Or that he may be a bad guy.

We're just saying there is no concrete evidence yet. It's a neat literary distraction technique, where you portray a seemingly bad character as a crone or a witch or a thief or something, but in the end, find out that appearances were deceiving.

I think that's a fair point, but portraying Kyube as a multi-tailed kitsune in the contract scene is what sealed the deal for me...if that's meant to deceive the viewers, it's some pretty heavy handed misleading.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

It's a neat literary distraction technique, where you portray a seemingly bad character as a crone or a witch or a thief or something, but in the end, find out that appearances were deceiving.

But in the end, you do have to explain this in a convincing manner. If you don't, it would just seem as some arbitrary crap.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

How do we know he lacks empathy?

Because he never shows any. For example, even though Mami described QB to be her "friend", he never seemed to care about her death in the first place. No word of mourning, no word of recollection, no word of comfort to those left behind. Nothing.

My interpretation of Kyubey's conversation with Kyoko in Episode 5 is that he was trying to talk her out of going after Sayaka. That he was doing this to prevent the two magical girls from clashing with each other. That could indicate empathy.

The only thing is: He didn't. Not once did he say "please don't do this". Not once did he say "you shouldn't fight another MG". Not once did he warn Sayaka about it either, so that she could prepare herself for this deadly threat. He merely gave a nebulous "things might not go as you think"-remark while telling her about Homura (showing that there's no stupid rule like "you must not tell MGs about each other"). Not even the smallest "as a MG you need to be prepared that others MG might try to kill you" post-contract.

Sorry, but this is completely inexcusable in my eyes. EITHER this MG world is so messed up that you need to be prepared to be intentionally targeted by your MG colleagues - then it is QB's goddamn duty to warn the girls he's luring into this meatgrinder BEFORE they contract - or, if you go for the "situation is desperate, he must create MGs to save everybody even if it's by conning them" excuse, then he should at least try to discourage them from infighting. But he doesn't.

What we know for sure is that the life expectancy of a MG is significantly lower than that of a civilian. What QB is doing is killing people - shortening their lives with his treachery. We don't know yet what his personal gain is (we'll probably learn in the later eps), but with all we've seen and with all we know, I find it extremely difficult to understand how anyone would still want to "give him the benefit of doubt".

[guuchan]

Originally Posted by totoum

I fail to see a difference,he could have said "your wish is fine" because any wish would be fine,but people have interpreted that as implying some wish wouldn't be fine.

Same can be done with "your wish will be carried out".

Specifics don't really matter,there's room for doubt since he didn't answer with a simple "yes it's true" and kinda avoided the question.

"There's room for doubt" and "there's clear implication" are different enough. Very. The moment I heard the line, my instant understanding, literally, was that Kyuubee was reasserting that any wish could be fulfilled as he had stated numerous times. "Donna negai" was what he always said, hence Sayaka's question. As couple of people mentioned here, "your wish is fine" clearly implies that there are wishes that aren't fine, however what he truly said didn't imply anything directly but just responding to Sayaka's question.

As I said in episode 3's thread, Kyuubee's mentioning of wish being related to the MG's strength was a very important point, and this has been touched on again in this episode. So Kyuubee explained that Sayaka had a strong recovery ability because of her wish relating to healing. Then how about Mami? We all know what her wish was: coming back to life from being almost dead, or if you would like to put it another way, being healed from fatally injured. What would her speciality be then? She might be written off from the show (with much emphasis on "might"), but I think it's pretty interesting to think about. I would be laughing so hard if she comes back to life later on her own, even though I admit that's quite a crazy idea.

[Patriot's Blade]

am i the only one who's facinated by those white cars moving in-line with each other? & are those the same white cars that appeared in Bakemonogatari?

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

i think mami's ability is resurrection or immortality. L0L. if so, that strong witch at the opening scene at ep 1 might be her or sayaka who doesn't easily die, making them quite invincible? XD speculation that is..XD

[Joachim]

Originally Posted by JDGBOLT

Not sure if anyone else noticed, but it seems like there may be some credence to the whole time travel kind of thing, potentially. QB mentions that the type of wish affects the abilities of the mahou shoujo, at least indirectly, with how sayaka has high regeneration capabilities with the wish to heal another. It seems to me, at least the way that the scene was shot, that homura's ability isn't so much teleportation, as we thought, but could be more time manipulation, as in perhaps pausing time. In the scene as she shows up, we can see her moving along from the point of view of a still drop of water, which after she is done moving, the water begins moving again. Also, after, showing the shot of a water drop behind madoka, it suddenly bursts like something has hit it, all while time is paused. So it seems to me that her ability is pausing time or something to that effect, even if only for a short time. Also her item that is on her as she appears looks to be some sort of clock or cyclical kind of thing. So I wouldn't be surprised if it was some kind of time manipulation happening there, and could provide a hint to what her wish was. Just some food for thought.

Same thoughts for me after watching the episode, the whole mahou shoujo have certain distinct abilities depending on what they wished for kind of indirectly states that homura somewhat has a time manipulation wish (resetting the timeline? rewinding the timeline?) that affects her ability to somewhat manipulates time at will (what we saw she can somewhat pause not fast forward or rewind time)

hopefully i am not thinking too much, so mami's wish is to be saved from certain death....

so she might have escape death/cheat death mechanism because of her wish? heh unlikely though