Sword Art Online - Game Mechanics and Technology [Speculation, NO Spoilers]

[ronelm2000]

Originally Posted by Kimidori

about the bug fixing thing, GM can not fix bug or change the code of the game, it programmer's job. and they don't get into the game, find the bug and fix it on the spot. they get into the game, find the bug, get out of the game, open the source code, find the bad code and fix it.

It may even be that there's no one who's handling the bug fixing division. I mean... Cardinal fixes everything, right?

[Krono]

[mod edit: tangent moved from Episode 16 thread]

Originally Posted by aohige

Yes it is.
It's a reuse of the Kayaba tech, and that's the reason why Kirito's Nerve Gear was able to synch with the new game.

What I'm saying is, "Kayaba technology" would be banned completely.
If another company was to make a new VRMMO, they'll have to R&D from the GROUND up on their own. Not take Kayaba tech and tweak it a little.

First of all, they haven't actually shown an Amusphere in the series yet, nor detailed how it's safer. So all your talk about it being a carbon copy/tweaked only a little is pretty empty.

Second, there's nothing innately wrong with "Kayaba's" technology. You're basically saying that if a microwave oven is built that can kill the user, all microwave ovens would be banned, and any new ovens attempting to do the same thing would have to be invented from scratch based on entirely different principles. When some pretty simple changes would prevent any more microwave ovens from killing the user.

Third, ALO being able to interact with NerveGear is a matter of software, not hardware. Other Amusphere games likely exist that do not support NerveGear.

The bottom line is that what the did was take the technology, and use it to design a new helmet that is safe. This would not be difficult, or require R&D from the ground up.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Krono

Second, there's nothing innately wrong with "Kayaba's" technology. You're basically saying that if a microwave oven is built that can kill the user, all microwave ovens would be banned, and any new ovens attempting to do the same thing would have to be invented from scratch based on entirely different principles. When some pretty simple changes would prevent any more microwave ovens from killing the user.

Yeah, obviously, you didn't care to actually read.
I've repeatedly said I'm not talking about all like-wise technology, over, and over, and over.
I know you and everyone else on that side of the argument is stuck on this idea of "all or nothing", and that's why I made sure to reliterate that's not my intention. But you keep bringing it up, and repeating the same strawman I tried to prevent.

It's pointless to continue this if you're not going to actually be on the same page of discussion, and relentless is getting itchy fingers.

[Krono]

Originally Posted by aohige

Yeah, obviously, you don't care to actually read.
I've repeatedly said I'm not talking about all like-wise technology, over, and over, and over.

And it's pointless to continue this if you're not going to actually read what you're replying to, and relentless is getting itchy.

No, I read what you wrote.

My point is that Amusphere is a likewise technology. It does the same thing as NerveGear, on the same principles, just with a design that's safe. They didn't just give NerveGear a software update and slap a new case on it like you imply by calling it a "carbon copy" and "tweaked a little"

What you seem to be saying however, is that even that is insufficient and they would have to come up with a design that operates on entirely different principles before it would be allowed.

[aohige]

Well, that's another discussion entirely, so let's have at it.

The similarities of Nerve Gear and AmuSphere... as long as we focus on that, we can continue, right relentless?

Granted, I got this off wiki, but

ナーヴギアの後継機。形状は二つのリングが並んだ円冠状の器具。「絶対安全」を売り文句に、ナーヴギアのセ キュリティシステムおよびセーフティ機構を強化したもので、電磁パルスの出力も大幅に弱められ ている。 規格はナーヴギアと同一であるため、いずれのマシンであっても同じソフトを動かすことが可能。出力の低下に 伴い、若干解像度も落ちている。その為かSAO生還者を始めとするナーヴギア経験者がアミュスフィアを使用 すると物足りなく感じる模様。 後継機としてレクトエレクトロニクス主導による複数メーカーによってアミュスフィア2（仮）が開発されてい る。

Looking at this, it's obviously a simply modified NerveGear.
It pretty much clearly says so. It says, it took NerveGear, and simply increased security and safty measures.
It also uses the same standard as NerveGear, making it compatible with its predecessor.

They didn't just take principals of how NerveGear works and developed an entirely new system... they took the product, duct-taped it, and said to the public "hey! it's safe!".

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by aohige

Well, that's another discussion entirely, so let's have at it.

The similarities of Nerve Gear and AmuSphere... as long as we focus on that, we can continue, right relentless?

Granted, I got this off wiki, but


Looking at this, it's obviously a simply modified NerveGear.
It pretty much clearly says so. It says, it took NerveGear, and simply increased security and safty measures.
It also uses the same standard as NerveGear, making it compatible with its predecessor.

They didn't just take principals of how NerveGear works and developed an entirely new system... they took the product, duct-taped it, and said to the public "hey! it's safe!".

Spoiler for concerning amusphere:

Actually, according to the novels, while the Amusphere operates on the same principal as NervGear, the spec of the machinery in the Amusphere was lowered to where it became physically impossible for an Amusphere to harm the user's brain like the NervGear was capable of. This is the reason why the quality of the feedback for the various senses was much lower in games played with an Amusphere as opposed to NervGear - the same thing was mentioned in the wiki you quoted too.

Basically, not so much "duct-tape", but that instead of that twin-turbo V8, you're getting an inline 4 under the hood

[aohige]

That's rediulous. It doesn't take a very high amount of electricity to fry a brain, if that thing can pump that into the brain in the first place.

I don't think the public will go "oh, ok. So you say you took a brain frying unit and lowered voltage, awesome. I'll hook it up to my brain immediately!"
Yeeeeah that's not gonna fly, regardless of if it's really safe or not.

And it's still taking the same ol' gear and engine, and tweaking it.
I expect at least an decade before Kayaba tech is reviewed and reexamined into the public, and meanwhile focus on similar technology developments by other companies.
The fear of the mad scientist leaving other black boxes would linger in the people's minds, as it should.

[Oroboro]

Think of it this way. Imagine if instead of "Magic Microwave Death" Kayaba instead just put a tiny bomb in every single NervGear.

Would VR-tech itself be to blame? Is it the NervGear itself, or the bomb that's dangerous? Or would people just say "Oh, just don't build one with a bomb in it."


Following that, there seems to be a bit of confusion between Government Regulation and Free-Market Capitalism. Maybe the public IS too scared of it. So it doesn't sell and the company goes bankrupt, oh well. ( I mentioned before, but a dedicated portion of hardcore gamers would likely be willing to try out a new game regardless of the risks)

But that's different from the government stepping in and banning stuff, rather than just getting heavily involved in the regulation of it.

Spoiler for Some minor info on the Amusphere from Novel 5:

There's a discussion Kirito has in novel 5 with some on whether or not the Amusphere could kill someone. They go over microwaves (There arn't any), electric shock, death by fright, and a few others before concluding that none of them could happen and are impossible.

[Xellos-_^]

A few weeks back, executives of a U.K. company called Zappar came to my office to show me their augmented reality technology. I have been looking into augmented reality for over a decade and have only seen false starts. But for the first time, I finally saw a technology and app infrastructure coming together that suggests to me that augmented reality is finally ready for prime time.
I happened to be in London last week for meetings and met again with Casper Thykier, the Managing Director of Zappar and got an even more impressive demo of the technology. And perhaps more importantly, it brought me greater clarification about Zappar’s potential impact on games, movies, children’s books and advertising.
By definition, augmented reality (AR) is a technology that lets a person view a real-life scene, ad, kids book, game or movie poster, for example, via their mobile device and then adds information to the device’s screen to make whatever the person is viewing come alive with additional content.


http://techland.time.com/2012/10/22/...or-prime-time/

doesn't look like VMMORPG is that far form reality.

[Oroboro]

There's still a lot of work to go on anything involving a direct brain interface, but the future is looking bright.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by aohige

Well, that's another discussion entirely, so let's have at it.

The similarities of Nerve Gear and AmuSphere... as long as we focus on that, we can continue, right relentless?

Granted, I got this off wiki, but


Looking at this, it's obviously a simply modified NerveGear.
It pretty much clearly says so. It says, it took NerveGear, and simply increased security and safty measures.
It also uses the same standard as NerveGear, making it compatible with its predecessor.

They didn't just take principals of how NerveGear works and developed an entirely new system... they took the product, duct-taped it, and said to the public "hey! it's safe!".

Maybe they just don't have that much leeway when it comes to the fundamentals of manipulating your brain. Sure, they could have changed the protocols to communicate with computers, but what would it have done with regards to the brain frying hazard? Nothing.

So all they could do to keep access to the VR capacity is keep Kayaba's tech, stick a bunch of hardware safeties on it, and hope it still works as a VR helmet.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

doesn't look like VMMORPG is that far form reality.

I think Oculus Rift is closer to it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzCwczY1jTM

What the article describes is what the 3DS already does.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yk3rSX-vOVw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43uSXA9qUe8

[Vmem]

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

I think Oculus Rift is closer to it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzCwczY1jTM

What the article describes is what the 3DS already does.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yk3rSX-vOVw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43uSXA9qUe8

I think the news below is actually the closest to real VR technology (granted it's not for gaming):

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_1...r-humans-next/

so someone has solved "not completely" the eye-bran message, or how the brain interprets messages from the eye. this is a HUGE step in essentially plugging a wire into the brain (or in the future a wireless signal), and telling the brain to "see" whatever computer generated graphic we want it to see. now we just need this for all the other senses.

hmm, seems like VRMMORPGs in 2025 isn't that unrealistic

[Salt]

Originally Posted by lightbringer

Nobody really does that. There are ticket systems. Players or GMs will submit bug reports. GMs may act as a filter at this stage. Programmers will look at open bug tickets and if it's something that can be reproduced they will try to fix it. Then it's time to test the fix. Successful fixes will be merged into the main code base used for the current test build. Every once in a while a set of such fixes will be pushed, together with new features that have been tested, from the test build to the live build. Some MMOs allow regular players with an active subscription access to the test builds also (EVE, WoW both do this for instance) because this way the company gets a free army of testers and the players get to play with the new features earlier - it's a win-win situation.

I think we just need to accept that the story is written by someone who doesn't knows how computers work nor even how MMOs operate.

This can't be helped, the author is a writer not an engineer - although it's possible for an author to be both such as when an engineer quits and turn writer; although I don't believe this happens very often due to the very different skill set and attitudes required to be writer; compared to say lawyer-turn-writers or physician-turn-writers.

We just have to close an eye toward "suspension of belief " breaking errors and just accept them as "dramatic license".

As for the safety of nerve gear and its successor, I don't really know enough about beaming microwaves into people's brain to induce imagery and sound to comment - no one does since this is not possible (yet or maybe never). However it could be analogous to lasers where some HMDs effectively shines a laser directly into your eye and draws straight onto the retina and for most part are safe - although there have been concerns about its safety, it doesn't take much power from a laser to fry a persons's eyes.

[Esebian]

Originally Posted by Salt

I think we just need to accept that the story is written by someone who doesn't knows how computers work nor even how MMOs operate.

This can't be helped, the author is a writer not an engineer - although it's possible for an author to be both such as when an engineer quits and turn writer; although I don't believe this happens very often due to the very different skill set and attitudes required to be writer; compared to say lawyer-turn-writers or physician-turn-writers.

We just have to close an eye toward "suspension of belief " breaking errors and just accept them as "dramatic license".

As for the safety of nerve gear and its successor, I don't really know enough about beaming microwaves into people's brain to induce imagery and sound to comment - no one does since this is not possible (yet or maybe never). However it could be analogous to lasers where some HMDs effectively shines a laser directly into your eye and draws straight onto the retina and for most part are safe - although there have been concerns about its safety, it doesn't take much power from a laser to fry a persons's eyes.

Well its more or less the same for microwaves

Too be clear: You can indeed stimulate the brain with microwaves for letting people see ghosts or other precences or even for letting them hear noices or voices inside of their heads.

But there are at least 2 problems:

Firstly you can't control the effect on the brain. Everybody reacts different for the same wavelength and frequency of the microwaves. Some just feel headaches while others see ghosts or are even unaffected.

Secondly the brain can't stand microwaves for too long, not only the brain but your whole body cannot, as the microwaves destroy your cells and is followed mostly by cancer. Well in the brain that's more or less a certain death...so not really appropiate for a toy.

Solutions (maybe):

For the first prob you maybe could tune your NerveGear so that you can control the wavelength with the result that you can find the frequency to which your brain reacts...

For the second prob I don't really know a solution as it's a matter of fact that for interfering with the brainwaves you need a wavelength that is at least near the one for the brainwaves and I don't think those are to good for the brain if they are put onto there for serveral hours over a limited timeframe.

Maybe sometimes in the future you pack it to create inteference while having a frequency much lower then the brainwaves so it doesn't destroy the cells but that's more or less speculation

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Esebian

Well its more or less the same for microwaves

Too be clear: You can indeed stimulate the brain with microwaves for letting people see ghosts or other precences or even for letting them hear noices or voices inside of their heads.

I'm speechless if you're talking about real life. In which case please read less conspiracy theories and study more biology.

Originally Posted by Esebian

Secondly the brain can't stand microwaves for too long, not only the brain but your whole body cannot, as the microwaves destroy your cells and is followed mostly by cancer. Well in the brain that's more or less a certain death...so not really appropiate for a toy.

This is totally dependent on the level an intensity of the microwave. Microwave by definition is non-ionizing, it has no more power to "destroy" your cells anymore than the infrared emission from your TV remote can. At high intensity levels it will, but that's through plain old dielectric heating.

tl;dr, go study more on EM radiation.

[Esebian]

Originally Posted by kyp275

I'm speechless if you're talking about real life. In which case please read less conspiracy theories and study more biology.




This is totally dependent on the level an intensity of the microwave. Microwave by definition is non-ionizing, it has no more power to "destroy" your cells anymore than the infrared emission from your TV remote can. At high intensity levels it will, but that's through plain old dielectric heating.

tl;dr, go study more on EM radiation.

Actually I am a physics student so I try to tell the least possibly amount of your so called conspiracy theories and more of actual facts.

And it is simply a fact that microwaves aswell as nearly all waves with the right wavelength can be followed by headaches and feelings of uneasyness, with the right psychological stimulation (btw I don't mean sth like suggestion, that is crap aswell) you can even bring people to see things that aren't there, that is the thing most people accuse of being the reason for your so called ghost sightings and so on.

I'm not trying to say you can control people per remote control or such crap, that's total nonesense, just that microwaves can have actual effects on your brain.

And ofc microwaves is non-ionizing, I never said sth else, that is clear.

I just wanted to give a simple explaination that anybody (also those who didn't have physics in school or university) can understand, I didn't want to put a whole theory at this forum with actual formulas and sample calculations. XD

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Esebian

Actually I am a physics student so I try to tell the least possibly amount of your so called conspiracy theories and more of actual facts.

shouldn't it be NONE of the conspiracy theories?

Originally Posted by Esebian

And it is simply a fact that microwaves aswell as nearly all waves with the right wavelength can be followed by headaches and feelings of uneasyness, with the right psychological stimulation (btw I don't mean sth like suggestion, that is crap aswell) you can even bring people to see things that aren't there, that is the thing most people accuse of being the reason for your so called ghost sightings and so on.

epilepsy/vertigo =/= manipulating neurological process. Please point out any credible and peer-reviewed papers that says radio, infrared, microwave, visible light, x/ultraviolet/gamma ray can mess with people's mind, which is essentially what you're claiming here.

[Esebian]

Originally Posted by kyp275

shouldn't it be NONE of the conspiracy theories?



epilepsy/vertigo =/= manipulating neurological process. Please point out any credible and peer-reviewed papers that says radio, infrared, microwave, visible light, x/ultraviolet/gamma ray can mess with people's mind, which is essentially what you're claiming here.

Well the core of physics is always that you believe in sth, all other claim to be impossible and then make it possible

So indeed conspiracy theories sometimes can be the actual starting point for experiments or theories ^^

A well for the paper I already have a case in mind but I totally can't remember the name of the researcher to who that happened. The case itself I can remember: The researcher if I recall right tried to look what wavelength a small metal pipe can withstand until it begins to well let's say break. So after he put the wavelength on the pipe he began to work and make experiments and after some while he "saw" sth in the ankle of his eyes, when he tried to focus it it dissappeared and that phenomena started everytime after a certain while after he startet sitting next to the pipe. To make it short after some while as as researcher he couldn't believe in ghosts and similar things tried to find the reason for his experiences, well after he put the wavelength from the metal pipe the whole thingy in his eyes disappeared and he made the swinging pipe the reason for that phenomen. I have a book in which his name stands but I'm currently at home and the book is where I study so for the name you will have to wait till monday then I can give it to you

And for mind, well I already said that that is crap and impossible even in 2000 years I think, ik that is still far from the NerveGear, it's just the nearest thing possible that I pointed out, not the correct solution ^^

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Esebian

Well the core of physics is always that you believe in sth, all other claim to be impossible and then make it possible

So indeed conspiracy theories sometimes can be the actual starting point for experiments or theories ^^

Please tell me you didn't just equate science to conspiracy theory. There's a big difference between saying nothing is impossible in a scientific context, and the nuts who wear tinfoils on their head so they won't be controlled by aliens.

Originally Posted by Esebian

A well for the paper I already have a case in mind but I totally can't remember the name of the researcher to who that happened. The case itself I can remember: The researcher if I recall right tried to look what wavelength a small metal pipe can withstand until it begins to well let's say break. So after he put the wavelength on the pipe he began to work and make experiments and after some while he "saw" sth in the ankle of his eyes, when he tried to focus it it dissappeared and that phenomena started everytime after a certain while after he startet sitting next to the pipe. To make it short after some while as as researcher he couldn't believe in ghosts and similar things tried to find the reason for his experiences, well after he put the wavelength from the metal pipe the whole thingy in his eyes disappeared and he made the swinging pipe the reason for that phenomen. I have a book in which his name stands but I'm currently at home and the book is where I study so for the name you will have to wait till monday then I can give it to you

Not so interested in some random book written by random people, there's plenty of those around. I'm looking for actual credible published academic research that is peer-reviewed. Frankly, something of this magnitude would be quite well known, and I have yet to come across anything in my search other than conspiracy nuts websites.

I can get you a copy of a "research paper" by flat-earthers, doesn't mean what they wrote in there remotely resembles reality.