2012-09-18, 16:15 | Link #30661 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Of course, you're making the mistake everyone does, assuming that Yasu's goal RE: Battler was romantic in nature.
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2012-09-18, 16:28 | Link #30662 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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But that has absolutely nothing to do with her decision. People don't decide to kill an entire family because of that, and Yasu, as crazy as he was, didn't either. You're point is moot anyway. I'm talking about overreactions here. Unless you can argue that it is understandable for a transexual to become a psycopath, Yasu is still a very unsympathetic person. I know about three different cases of children that lost their penis and were raised as girls. Two of these cases adapted to their reassigned sex without problems, the remaining didn't and he had psychological problems throughout his life. In the end he killed himself, but he didn't drag anyone with himself. But Yasu's cases is different from that one, because Yasu has clearly a female personality, meaning that he adapted. He doesn't have any excuse.
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2012-09-18, 16:31 | Link #30663 | |||||||
Human
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Crime Scene
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Girl who I don't even remember murdered my family and made me watch? -> Let's marry her. Conclusion1: Are you fucking kidding me, Ryuukishi? Conclusion2: I don't even know who deserves more to be called a moron. Sick things are sick. No matter what side you take, you're gonna be siding with some fucked up individual. Quote:
My reaction: refer to conclusion 1. Quote:
You have to be Jesus, capitain. You have to be Jesus to forgive that. I can barely forgive the guy that ran over my aunt and made her almost lose her life because he was drunk. I'd go all Sasuke on the responsible's ass if something as strong as Rokkenjima's big bang happened. Then again, I don't consider myself the best human in the street. Quote:
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I can be dissapointed by a lot of things and let them pass, but the motive of mass murder has to be a pretty damn good one. Quote:
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2012-09-18, 16:35 | Link #30664 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
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I think it's understandable for anyone to go crazy after being faced with that level of lying and manipulation from people she had previously trusted. But make no mistake, Yasu is screaming in agony over them allowing her to live when her body is "like this" in the red guts scene. That should probably be a pretty big hint as to how she felt about it.
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2012-09-18, 16:44 | Link #30665 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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And anyway this still has nothing to do with Yasu becoming a murderer.
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2012-09-18, 17:04 | Link #30666 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
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How dare she make those people feel bad for lying to her for her entire life! The reason for Yasu's mindset that allowed her to write elaborate murder mysteries and flip the trigger on a bomb that eventually blew up the island has nothing to do with her...motivation for writing elaborate murder mysteries and flipping the switch to the bomb that would eventually blow up the island? If you say so.
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2012-09-18, 17:08 | Link #30667 | ||||
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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The motive for mass-murder is not the excuse for mass-murder. Heck, Sweeney Todd is one of the saddest fictional-people, I say, serves those bastards right to be turned into pies, but I still think he saw what he had coming. The motive for a crime can let you have insight on where another human being went wrong. And I think no matter what the crime, everyone should have the right to be forgiven. If you are not willing to accept the author's choice of motive here, that's your opinion, and clearly I can't disagree with you there, even if my opinion's the total opposite. Neither can I say anything to you when you think it can't 'justify' murder, because even I who does accept it find it stretched. However, disagreeing with it because it cannot 'excuse' murder is where I draw the line. Murder can be justified but not excused. Quote:
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2012-09-18, 17:23 | Link #30668 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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To believe a person irrational enough to kill themselves is one thing. To believe them both irrational and hopelessly callous to people who have never wronged them is another matter entirely and I sincerely believe that someone who is characterized the way she is characterized would stop herself from such madness, even if resolved to commit suicide. Remember, even if we assume all the adults have somehow done her wrong, and all the servants, and Battler (which is stupid, but I'm accepting your premise on its face here), as far as I can tell Maria/Jessica/George never have. And probably Hideyoshi. I can somewhat accept "these people have wronged me or wronged my family or lied to me, I don't care what happens to them." But there are people there she cares about and who have done their damndest not to hurt her, at least so far as we (and she) seem to know or care about. To cross the line further and say "I don't care what happens to them either" is the act not of a person in despair, but of an utter monster. And she is not characterized as a monster, nor does anyone accept it when she portrays herself that way. Which leads me to believe that, when worse came to worse, I don't think she could bring herself to harm those people. Apparently, she couldn't bring herself to harm Battler... or else Battler just coincidentally happened to get away, but that doesn't seem like it'd be a satisfying resolution at all. Plus Eva. There shouldn't have been any survivors if her execution were as professional as Beatrice's. I think she's just not capable of doing that outside of the stories. She has trouble doing it within them.
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2012-09-18, 17:35 | Link #30669 | ||||
Human
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Crime Scene
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The logical retribution, of course, was to blow everyone in his face... Quote:
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Mass murder Is not excusable. But Yasu's motive is so weird and shady it's like she wanted to blow something and things went bad from there. So.. like an excuse. "Not my fault even if i say it was... forgive me for starting this madness?" Quote:
I've felt insecure, I'm sure you too, and all the others in this discussion. For the ones who have already *ahem* went at it with their lovers: Oi! You there felt insecure when showing yourself for the first time to that special person? Did you had second thoughts? Maybe... don't know... like your only option was to blow away an island with 16 guys in it yourself included? I say nay... But going serious: you don't think about killing a lot of people because you are afraid your boyfriend is not going to like your body. And if you do, go to the nearest mental hospital and do us a favor locking yourself up before something happens.
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2012-09-18, 19:04 | Link #30670 | ||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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The one we 'deal with' is PieceYasu who commits the murders on the gameboard and whose story is told in Ep 7. PrimeYasu's real story might have had some common elements but we really don't know if it's the same. PieceYasu surely decided to commit murders and then kill herself and destroy the island. Can we say the same for PrimeYasu? We don't know. She might have, she might have not. We don't even know if PrimeYasu was really Kanon & Shannon or the idea to represent herself as two servants was merely metaphorical, we don't know if PrimeYasu played Kanon's role at Jessica's school with Jessica knowing it was Yasu/Shannon in truth, we don't know if George really planned to ask Shannon to marry him or it was just an one sided thing from Yasu/Shannon, just to name a couple of things that are rather important for Yasu. Note also that PieceShannon and PieceKanon are strongly in love with George and Jessica and willing to off each other to fulfil their wish. Can the same be said for their Prime versions or they're just a metaphor of a wish of being a certain type of person? If we assume that PrimeYasu never meant to kill anyone, her intention contrasting sharply with PieceYasu who meant to make a mass murder we've to assume what we learnt on the gameboard about PieceYasu didn't necessary apply to PrimeYasu. Otherwise, if they're the same, they shared the same murdering intention. Quote:
If in all those years didn't realize it either she's very ignorant on anatomy or it's something that can't be seen first glance (if she had a uterus and it was removed/damaged, well at best you'll notice a scar that you won't necessarily connect to a missing/damaged uterus). If she could already realize herself what had happened to her, Genji told her nothing new... but somehow Umineko seems to imply she discovered it only right then and not before as apparently it's in that moment she start to consider herself as furniture. Anyway, Genji apparently told her something she hadn't realized herself. So to confirm it either she can start studying anatomy or needs to go to a doctor to check. Now, apparently her problem is a delicate issue so she might not be so willing to go have it checked by a doctor especially since likely she was told there was no way to fix it. Genji making up such a story for some unknown reason seems hard to picture so really, the only reason I can see for Yasu to check Genji's words is because she's either lacking faith in him or she's delusional. In either way it requires a certain amount of guts to face her problems which I can't see Yasu having. So I don't think it's likely Yasu would check Genji's story about her injury. What Genji might have lied about though, willing or by mistake, is about Natsuhi causing her to fall from a cliff. Yasu evidently found out and believed Natsuhi did it on purpose. Genji wasn't there to check if Natsuhi did it on purpose and not even Natsuhi is that reliable as she was in a peculiar state of mind. This is something Yasu can't know for sure as well as she can't know for sure she's really Kinzo's daughter without a DNA test. Genji might have told her that story just because he wanted to make Kinzo happy before he were to die. Through all this is apparently unimportant as, according to Yasu, that's not why she's doing things. So either she's lying or her injury, her fall and her birth aren't as important as Battler breaking is promise is. I like to think they are but that's not what Beatrice insist is her motive. Her motive is Battler forgetting his promise... though if Battler had remembered it she wouldn't have turned into Lion. She would have still been an incest baby, tossed off a cliff by Natsuhi and mutilated. But hey, at 13 she would have been living on her own in a big city, working and studying and maybe seeing Battler at school and when she was off duty and maybe Battler might have decided to date her... or he might have dumped her as his promised required only to go get Yasu, not to devote his life to her. But hey, the fact he would have kept it would have really changed things for Yasu. Now, instead than 10 tons of gold and a bomb to blast everyone she should have used something else to off 18 people once she were to realize her life wasn't a bowl of cherries. I'm being sarcastic so it sounds mean but really, Yasu's motive should have been explained better otherwise what's said isn't enough to justify her actions. Quote:
He seems to believe that the parade fixed everything as it gave back to Yasu her birthrights and her family. Even if Kinzo apologized to Beato he implied now he knew the difference between Beato and Yasu so the dressing up (which might also be merely an embellishment so we don't really know if it happened) might have been merely to underline the resemblance between Beato and Yasu. In Japanese stories where a kid goes lost and then it's found she's often dressed like the mother (or has to do something the mother did) so that she can be compared to her and recognized. Quote:
We've too many bits in which it's said it's all Battler's fault to think Yasu completely forgave him. Blaming Battler is also a convenient copying mechanism. Thinking that if Battler had done something different her life could have been better gives her hope somewhere a better universe exist for her. Bern 'set her straight' though telling her that in all the universes in which she was Yasu tragedy strike and the same would happen even in the universes in which she was Lion and she wasn't burdened by Battler's promise. To be honest I think Bern sort of cheated as she basically implied that, in order to end up in the cat box, all the other universes had to end into tragedy so there's no way for a happy ending but, at the same time she did something interesting. She asked Lion to think at how the others were feelings. She does all of it in a rather cruel way yet she forces Lion to face something Lion refused to look at. Quote:
Even when she 'uses magic' Maria tries to do it in a way that is active. She thinks that sound she makes should make things better between her and her mother because once it worked. Probably she kept trying to make it because Rosa gives mixed responses (when Rosa feels guilty because she had just hit Maria she doesn't complain anymore if she does it and gets nicer with Maria) so Maria might even think that the times Rosa complain is because she's not saying it properly. Still, she's doing more than just waiting. Quote:
Of course the game might have been trying to draw a line between PieceBeato and MetaBeato. After all it's MetaBattler who forgives MetaBeato. MetaBeato isn't killing real people as the pieces aren't real in her world so effectively it can be the only thing she's doing wrong is not explaining this clearly to Battler who seems to think each time a piece die it's a person that's killed. However the whole message is so blurry that this interpretation isn't immediate or the only one possible. Quote:
Mama got angry and said mean things? Surely she didn't meant that it was just stress. And it can be it was just stress. Rosa was a bad mother but this didn't necessary mean she hated Maria, just that she failed at being a mother because she chosed using a behaviour that had been used by her relatives on her. In many cases the truth is in between. Rosa is stressed and exhasperated and doing the wrong thing. It doesn't mean there's no love at all, just that there isn't enough to help Rosa doing the right one all the time. Rosa is, after all, weak and unstable. Maria couldn't understand all that, she could only see that some days her mom would love her deraly and some others... she wouldn't and would try to interpret this 2 contrasting truths her own way. Yet she always try to get along. And I think that's worth something.[/quote] Quote:
In the end George is very open to her confessing her his worst sides but she can't find herself willing to do the same. Jessica and Battler too always seem to be rather straightforward and honest and Battler seems to have quite a bunch of troubles in doubting others. So in a fashion Yasu has around himself people who're willing to trust her but whom she's unable to trust in. Yes, she has issues so it's understable she has troubles but the point is she's the one trapping herself in this vicious circle. |
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2012-09-18, 20:13 | Link #30672 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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She was a baby who fell from a cliff. Part of her body could have been crushed or either even stabbed by something sharp over which it fell damaging her internal organs. In a list of traumas you can have due to incident are included the crushing of a uteus which will also cause internal bloodloss of the organ so it's possible that was the damage Yasu received. Genji said he didn't think she would survive when he rushed her to Nanjo so I think whatever she suffered was serious and Yasu was very lucky to survive to it. Anyway Ryukishi believed it shouldn't have been possible to determinate which sex Yasu was just by reading what happened to him/her so it has to be possible for Yasu to be hurt in a way that would make his/her body unable to be loved regardless from his/her gender. If this wasn't true, just by knowing Yasu was hurt in such way we would know which gender Yasu is/was and this would destroy the catbox about Yasu's sex. As Ryukishi wanted to preserve the catbox just saying Yasu received an injury that turned his/her body unable to be loved shouldn't help us to guess which sex Yasu is. |
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2012-09-19, 01:22 | Link #30673 | |
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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The impression I got isn't that Battler forgave Beatrice, but that he realised that she wasn't to blame in the first place and that he even wanted her forgiveness. Now, if what he realised was "If only I hadn't forgotten my promise, Beatrice wouldn't have killed my family! It's all my fault!" then OK, things are messed up there. But it doesn't make sense for him to think that, in my opinion. Jesus or not, it isn't a logical train of thought for him to follow. Meta-Battler didn't get presented as a person who would simply forgive mass murder in real life. But he did grow into someone who wasn't always horrified by "fictional" murder on the gameboards - like in the love duel, where he was hardly yelling at Jessica/George/Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice for the murders they committed during that. |
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2012-09-19, 02:16 | Link #30674 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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We don't point at those scenes and claim that Meta or Piece Jessica is a horrible, irredeemable monster because she'd boil Kyrie in lava for the sake of her crush in that situation. It's understood that the "motive" was a caricature for the reader's benefit and that we shouldn't approach Piece Jessica as having the same level of realism as a real-world murderer. Although the murder in question took place in a fantasy scene, Battler went to the trouble of putting that element in a game about Beatrice's origins, and even included a fantasy-meta level to talk about it in, so I think it would do a lot of good to consider why he did that.
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2012-09-19, 02:48 | Link #30675 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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At least Nanjo and Genji had good reasons. Maybe they were misguided, but they didn't do that just to have fun. You might as well blame adoptive parents for not telling their children the truth right away. And anyway is that what Yasu's drama is about? She's been "lied" to? Quote:
If anything of what you mentioned was the cause for Yasu to blow up the island, she would have done it whether Battler returned or not, simply for the fact that George asked Shannon to marry him. But the truth is that if Yasu had born female and never suffered any injuries, nothing would have changed at all. Battler would have still forgot about his promise, George would have still proposed to Shannon, and Yasu would have still snapped when Battler decided to come back 6 years later.
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2012-09-19, 07:14 | Link #30676 | |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
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The ShKanon/furniture complex is a part of what Yasu wanted Battler to understand through her game. And it meant a lot to her. Her hopeless and desperate mental condition + Battler brings us what we have. Erasing one of them will change the story. |
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2012-09-19, 08:50 | Link #30677 | |||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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In the first place, it was not the revelation of Yasu's sexual problems, or the revelation that her most trusted guardians were lying to her her whole life or anything like that that actually triggered any actual intent to murder. The trigger was Battler's return. So how could news of Battler's return cause Yasu to plan and carry out a mass murder? In other words, it's not a matter of her "snapping" from pain. In fact, it's more like she "snapped" from hope. So what we have is a situation where Yasu's motive for killing over a dozen people is not vengeance, nor desire for destruction caused by a sense of powerlessness, nor some other motive that places intrinsic meaning in the act of taking the lives of the victims. No, the motive is to create a chance of Battler remembering her. In other words, these murders are no more than a means to an end. The victims are less than human. They're consumable tools. They're pieces. This is not a satisfying motive for murder. It's a fantasy motive. Yasu simply has no "mystery" motive. That's why I think Yasu is innocent in Prime. Quote:
Without love, it can't be seen. They are her words. But I shall repeat them. Love exists in everyone's hearts. Her true tragedy was that she couldn't see it. |
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2012-09-19, 09:08 | Link #30678 | |||
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Join Date: May 2009
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Although really that whole scene mostly just existed so Kyrie could plot dump. Quote:
The same is true for anything Yasu hears from Genji and Nanjo or from Kinzo or from anybody really. She doesn't know there was a baby. She doesn't know she was that baby. She doesn't know the baby was injured in some way and that her body image is the result of an actual injury. Feeling abnormal or uncomfortable with one's own body is not that uncommon in perfectly healthy people. Yasu had these feelings and made assumptions based on information. The point is, she chose to believe this was true and behaved accordingly. Jan-Poo's point (I think) is that it doesn't make any difference whether she's right or wrong about it. For example, let's say the baby really did exist, really did suffer a fall and an injury, really was operated on by Nanjo, and really was placed in the orphanage by Genji. And at some point Genji accidentally made a mistake and lost track of the baby, thinking entirely by error that some other baby was the one. That baby came to be raised as Yasu-Alternate, let's say, on the mistaken assumption it was Kinzo's secret child. Yasu-Alternate grows up in the same situations and perhaps has the same feelings. Yasu-Alternate is also uncomfortable with him/herself for reasons he/she isn't sure of. Yasu-Alternate also has a relationship with Battler which is interrupted by Battler's departure. And Yasu-Alternate eventually finds out from Genji/Nanjo what happened to the baby. He/she believes them, because they're telling the truth about the incident, but all three just happen to be mistaken and think Yasu-Alternate was that baby. Would Yasu-Alternate behave the same way as Yasu? I don't see why not. He/she believes the circumstances to be as presented, even though everyone involved in the situation is mistaken. By the same token, Yasu can't know she's the secret baby or that there even was a secret baby. She has to trust Genji, and apparently she is inclined to do so. In doing so, she believes it and acts as if it is true. Because she acts as if it is true, it doesn't matter if it is or isn't actually true, because Yasu has no apparent way of knowing other than the ways she's got in front of her. So whether the situation is Baby Exists -> Yasu is Baby -> Body Image Caused by Injury or Baby Doesn't Exist -> Yasu isn't Baby -> Body Image Caused by Something Else, Yasu will behave identically by drawing a conclusion that fits the information she has. Thus in Jan-Poo's theoretical account of a perfectly normal female Yasu who just mistakenly believes she's a mutilated male, silly as such a thing might obviously sound, her reaction ought to be no different. In other words, unless the scenario changes so drastically as to be entirely unrecognizable, the events of 1986 would play out basically the same whether or not the stories were true. Quote:
Still a potentially dickish thing to do to Battler, but at least it would be done with the willing participation of everyone for an essentially innocent purpose. That would be a sufficient "mystery" motive, although obviously it would also assert her innocence.
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2012-09-19, 10:24 | Link #30679 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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@Renall
My point is close to what you're saying, but more or less you nailed the fact that "being a mutilated male" has so little to do with a real problem for herself that even if she was a normal female she would have still come up with some kind of drama to feel pitiful about. Now if she was a mutilated male that never felt like a woman, that wanted to be male and that suffered form his forced feminization then hell yeah, I would understand and recognize her tragic situation. But as much as we have doubts about Yasu's sex there isn't really any about her gender identity. Yasu doesn't suffer from being a woman at all, if anything her ideal selfs are always female. The point is that people like her usually end up deciding to remove their testicles by their own decision, and often they hate the fact that they have a penis. In the end the real problem with Yasu (assuming she was a mutilated man) is not that she doesn't have a penis, but the fact that she wasn't born a woman. Her idea that "it's all because of that incident if I'm not fit to love" only shows how much she subconsciously needs to play the part of the tragic heroine at all costs. If she still had a penis, she'd still have a problem romancing George and Battler, and she probably would still dramatize over the fact that she doesn't have a vagina. Which at least it's something that I would understand, at least there would be a sequitur. But there's still the fact that the whole idea that she isn't fit to be loved is something that she decided by herself. Nobody told her that, of course the chance that she would be refused was high, but she didn't even try. She didn't even left the involved persons to decide whether they still wanted to love her or not. And that's why she's a drama queen. You can understand that a person is one, when they decide their tragedies are unsolvable before even trying. Which is basically what she did with the whole Battler situation. BTW. There is no evidence that Yasu is actually a biological male. For all that we know she could as well be female. In that case she would be simply a woman unable to reproduce. In this case at least there would be a real connection with her incident, because supposedly that would be precisely the reason that made her unable to bear children. However that would still be an overreaction. The world is plenty of women in the same condition. It's sad, but it's not such a tragedy. And that's certainly not a reason to think you can't possibly be loved. Quote:
But the character in her stories would still be a psychopath.
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2012-09-19, 10:37 | Link #30680 |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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Well I did suggest a drastically different interpretation of Yasu's body that cannot be loved.
She has lethal health problems that are going to kill her soon anyway. Basically she's in the same situation as Kinzo. No need for gender confusion or being unable to reproduce. I'm sure some would say that she can still be loved even if dying and all of that, but that's a bit too idealistic. Not going to bother debating that much if anyone disagrees. I'm only going to say, go look at a retirement house and witness how much love these people are receiving. As for what problems she has I'm not certain but it looks like it's heart related problems. Teen with heart problems aren't going to live very long. Especially if they had surgeries already (I know there's exceptions and that nowaday medecine is getting much better but in 1970-80 an heart surgery wasn't something you'd easily recover from). |
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