[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 1 Legend of the golden witch

[Ithekro]

Best way to put that is that the Tea Parties are in a way related to each other. Both "exist", though outside the "game" so to speak. Are they "alive"? And yes, Battler is that stubborn.

[Arachanox]

Ah, I think I get what you're saying. There's more to it than I'm being told and I just have to wait to play the other games to understand the Tea Parties more fully, huh? I'll look forward to it then.

Thanks.

[DentD]

I finally finished Episode 1 of the VN and I have a couple thoughts that I don't believe have been discussed yet (although I could be very wrong!).

Spoiler for the 2nd twilight in Ep 1:

From what I've heard on the anime episode discussions, we shouldn't trust anything that isn't seen from Battler's perspective.

IIRC, Battler, the other three cousins, Nanjo and Natsuhi were all in the parlor when they decided to have dinner. Natsuhi asked the servants to go invite Eva and Hideyoshi for dinner as well.

So at that point, Kumasawa, Kanon and Genji were outside of the parlor. Meaning they could have done anything! Battler and the cousins were left alone after Natsuhi and Nanjo were rushing off to Eva and Hideyoshi's room. So by the time Battler and the cousins arrived, the chain to the door was already cut and the magic circle had already been painted on the door.

Rather than trying to explain a closed room murder, isn't it simpler to say that the chain was already cut by the killer, because Battler didn't witness it being cut by Kanon? Of course, this obviously implicates at least Genji and Kanon as accomplices, if not the killer (or one of the killers) themself. However I think this is far more easy to believe than the idea that some human was able to murder both Eva and Hideyoshi without getting past the chain. Let me know if I am missing something that makes this theory implausible.

Spoiler for Kinzo in Ep 1:

Then, regarding finding Kinzo's charred body... While Genji affirms that Kinzo had polydactyly, nobody confirmed that no other members of the Ushiromiya family had the same condition. The genetic allele for polydactyly is a dominant trait, meaning it is highly likely that either one of Kinzo's children or his grandchildren could have inherited this! So I do not see how having six toes was absolute proof that the charred corpse in Ep 1 was Kinzo's.

Spoiler for Natsuhi:

Okay, I also question Natsuhi's death. I do not believe, even with the shorter barrel, that Natsuhi would have been able to kill herself. I also find it equally unlikely that the gun is made to shoot from the wrong end. While it is plausible that the culprit shot her with another gun (or stole the Winchester, shot Natsuhi with it and then put it back in her arms), I wonder about the possibility of Natsuhi firing her gun and having her bullet ricochet off of something into her head? I know, this is probably equally unlikely, but I feel that this also should be considered if we are looking at suicide, reverse guns, and a gun toting shooter.

Spoiler for Ep 1 TIPS:

I was wondering how reliable the TIPS provided at the end of Episode 1 are. Most notably I am referring to the game results, where each murdered character is proclaimed dead in order of twilights. Can we consider this to be truthful or is this also suspect? I ask this because it seems that in order to deny the existence of a 19th person, one must implicate somebody within the family, somebody who seemed to be murdered. I, like others, believe it is all too easy for somebody to have placed a fake body in amongst the first six dead people. So if that is the case, if somebody (presumably somebody whose face was unrecognizable) was not actually amongst the dead in the first twilight, that means the game results in the TIPS page mean nothing! How utterly unreliable.

Also, I have a question regarding the entire nature of Episode 1.

Spoiler for Games of Umineko:

Do we really know that these are the actual "real" events that occurred? From what I've seen in the anime so far, the subsequent arcs are "games" set up by Beatrice to try to test Battler. But the murders are different. So how can Battler's solutions for the subsequent games have any bearing on the events that actually took place in Episode 1? If Beatrice was really trying to prove to Battler that no human could have committed all the murders, why wouldn't she use the original set up as in Episode 1? Which leads me to believe that the events in Episode 1 are actually NOT the real events. They are just another game, except we are not seeing any of the meta-world so early on.

Sorry if this is considered necro-posting since it has been awhile since people discussed things in here. And please, if my theories are way off base, let me know, thank you!

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by DentD

I have a question regarding the entire nature of Episode 1.

Spoiler for Games of Umineko:

Do we really know that these are the actual "real" events that occurred? From what I've seen in the anime so far, the subsequent arcs are "games" set up by Beatrice to try to test Battler. But the murders are different. So how can Battler's solutions for the subsequent games have any bearing on the events that actually took place in Episode 1? If Beatrice was really trying to prove to Battler that no human could have committed all the murders, why wouldn't she use the original set up as in Episode 1? Which leads me to believe that the events in Episode 1 are actually NOT the real events. They are just another game, except we are not seeing any of the meta-world so early on.

Sorry if this is considered necro-posting since it has been awhile since people discussed things in here. And please, if my theories are way off base, let me know, thank you!

The answer to your question is revealed later on. The rules of Umineko will become much more clear the more you continue read/watch.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by DentD

Spoiler for the 2nd twilight in Ep 1:

Rather than trying to explain a closed room murder, isn't it simpler to say that the chain was already cut by the killer, because Battler didn't witness it being cut by Kanon? Of course, this obviously implicates at least Genji and Kanon as accomplices, if not the killer (or one of the killers) themself. However I think this is far more easy to believe than the idea that some human was able to murder both Eva and Hideyoshi without getting past the chain. Let me know if I am missing something that makes this theory implausible.

That is a solution. What you say is possible, however you would need to suspect both Genji and Kanon.
There is another simple way to explain this closed room and was frequently mentioned in this thread: "the culprit is still inside hidden somewhere".

Originally Posted by DentD

Spoiler for Kinzo in Ep 1:

Then, regarding finding Kinzo's charred body... While Genji affirms that Kinzo had polydactyly, nobody confirmed that no other members of the Ushiromiya family had the same condition. The genetic allele for polydactyly is a dominant trait, meaning it is highly likely that either one of Kinzo's children or his grandchildren could have inherited this! So I do not see how having six toes was absolute proof that the charred corpse in Ep 1 was Kinzo's.

This whole thread is plenty of theories about Kinzo's body not being really Kinzo's body.

Originally Posted by DentD

Spoiler for Natsuhi:

Okay, I also question Natsuhi's death. I do not believe, even with the shorter barrel, that Natsuhi would have been able to kill herself. I also find it equally unlikely that the gun is made to shoot from the wrong end. While it is plausible that the culprit shot her with another gun (or stole the Winchester, shot Natsuhi with it and then put it back in her arms), I wonder about the possibility of Natsuhi firing her gun and having her bullet ricochet off of something into her head? I know, this is probably equally unlikely, but I feel that this also should be considered if we are looking at suicide, reverse guns, and a gun toting shooter.

The ricochet bullet is actually the witch's thesis (except she claims that she made the bullet bounce back). In practice such an event is impossible. As well as it's impossible for Natsuhi to have shot herself in the middle of the head with a rifle.

Originally Posted by DentD

Spoiler for Ep 1 TIPS:

I was wondering how reliable the TIPS provided at the end of Episode 1 are. Most notably I am referring to the game results, where each murdered character is proclaimed dead in order of twilights. Can we consider this to be truthful or is this also suspect? I ask this because it seems that in order to deny the existence of a 19th person, one must implicate somebody within the family, somebody who seemed to be murdered. I, like others, believe it is all too easy for somebody to have placed a fake body in amongst the first six dead people. So if that is the case, if somebody (presumably somebody whose face was unrecognizable) was not actually amongst the dead in the first twilight, that means the game results in the TIPS page mean nothing! How utterly unreliable.

I don't think they are reliable. They are most probably metaphors which are impossible to understand unless you already know the truth. As a rule of thumb, if it isn't red, it isn't reliable.

Originally Posted by DentD

Spoiler for Games of Umineko:

Do we really know that these are the actual "real" events that occurred? From what I've seen in the anime so far, the subsequent arcs are "games" set up by Beatrice to try to test Battler. But the murders are different. So how can Battler's solutions for the subsequent games have any bearing on the events that actually took place in Episode 1? If Beatrice was really trying to prove to Battler that no human could have committed all the murders, why wouldn't she use the original set up as in Episode 1? Which leads me to believe that the events in Episode 1 are actually NOT the real events. They are just another game, except we are not seeing any of the meta-world so early on.

Funny, I always thought that if there's really only one game that is real that must be the first game. That is the only game where you don't see any blatant magic event. However it's not like I can say your theory is wrong. The only problem I see is how do you know which is the true one?

[DentD]

The ricochet bullet is actually the witch's thesis (except she claims that she made the bullet bounce back). In practice such an event is impossible. As well as it's impossible for Natsuhi to have shot herself in the middle of the head with a rifle.

I thought Beatrice's comment about bullets bouncing back was a very important clue, if we are to view the TIPS as metaphors. While it is rare and highly improbable, it is not impossible for a bullet or at least a fragment of a bullet to ricochet directly back to the shooter.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/m9rjrud2a3qa8kp6/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fS4tcLg5oCg

Funny, I always thought that if there's really only one game that is real that must be the first game. That is the only game where you don't see any blatant magic event. However it's not like I can say your theory is wrong. The only problem I see is how do you know which is the true one?

Could it be that the true events would be revealed in a later arc? I think that would be rather compelling. Or perhaps, at some point the meta-characters will examine the exact events surrounding Episode 1 and red truth it all. That would be great.

[Jan-Poo]

I thought Beatrice's comment about bullets bouncing back was a very important clue, if we are to view the TIPS as metaphors. While it is rare and highly improbable, it is not impossible for a bullet or at least a fragment of a bullet to ricochet directly back to the shooter.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/m9rjrud2a3qa8kp6/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fS4tcLg5oCg

This is like one chance on a quadrillion... and in both cases there was a steel plate involved. I don't think the culprit used a steel plate with the intention to make the bullet ricochet, and there isn't any steel plate in that room. The kind of surfaces you see wouldn't make the bullet jump back.

[DentD]

You're probably right, Jan-Poo, but at this point I just can't bring myself to absolutely rule it out.

Spoiler for typhoon:

Ok, here's another thought I had about the series. It seems very odd to me that the culprit was able to rely on the typhoon to create what is essentially a cut off area. The more I think about it, the more like it seems highly fortunate for the culprit that the typhoon came at all.

1. Since the culprit is trying to implicate the witch, they are following the rules of the epitaph. Meaning they need at least fourteen (thirteen killings are explicitly noted in the epitaph but there are "remaining" people who are also killed so you need more than thirteen) people to murder.

2. While it was mentioned that Kinzo may have supported that orphanage in order to gather people for sacrifices, this does not fit in line with the letter Maria read at dinner from "Beatrice", which gave everybody on the island at that time a chance to solve the gold. It makes sense that the family members would have to be there. Also, if the culprit truly is after the gold then it makes sense that the family members, not just servants, would need to be taken out of the way in order for the gold to be claimed by somebody else. So it is obvious that only annual family conferences could be used to carry out the events depicted in the epitaph.

3. I do not believe that any human could have absolutely guaranteed that a typhoon would have hit Rokkenjima on October 4-5th, 1986. While it is true that a few of the guests felt like there may have been bad weather, it is hard for me to accept that somebody there absolutely knew that everybody would be unable to leave the island because of a typhoon.

4. Maria was given a letter that appeared to have a wax seal made with Kinzo's ring. I am still not convinced that the culprit would not have been able to make a copy of the seal (as mentioned by the adults in Ep 1, it wouldn't have been hard to copy it since they've all received letters with that seal at some point). The letter claims it was made with Kinzo's ring, but we have no proof. Yes, we do not see the ring on the corpse that is supposedly Kinzo's but a ring is terribly easy to hide.

5. Either way, the culprit must have planned, prior to the typhoon starting, to set things in motion. I would guess that in order to figure out exactly what they would do, they would need far more time than the start of the game. Somebody needed to disguise themselves as Beatrice, they needed to either obtain Kinzo's ring or make a copy of it, they needed to write letters, figure out how they would kill thirteen+ people, etc. You would need a lot of time to figure out how to do all of these things if you wished to follow the epitaph! If somebody just wanted to murder everybody without implicating a witch they wouldn't need to do all of these things like give Maria a letter, write magic circles on doors, etc.

6. Imagine if the culprit carried out the first twilight and then the next day the typhoon passed! So now somebody would have been able to phone or radio the police, or a boat could have came and the others could have left. How would the culprit have dealt with that? While perhaps it is possible for somebody to have guessed at the weather within several days of the conference, I feel like this plan took much longer to sort out, and so there is no way they could have said well in advance during their planning "There will be a typhoon so I don't have to worry about anybody leaving. I will be able to continue murdering people per the epitaph."

It just all seems really suspicious to me. I'm not even sure where I'm going with it, but the only conclusion I can come up with is the culprit made this plan and waited for the right moment. Fortuitously in 1986 there was a typhoon during the family conference! But then again, would somebody really be willing to wait a year at a time on the off chance that a typhoon would occur? Far too many variables involved, I think.

Again, not sure where I'm going but it just bugs me.

[Ithekro]

Yeah a typhoon is not something one banks on. The historical typhoons on those dates (Carmen) had only developed on September 30th over a thousand miles away and only made itself into a typhoon on October 4th eventually reaching 100 mph winds (155 km/h), then reached 190 km/h by October 6th, before going away on October 9th...but it was moving the entire time. The real one dropped some 10 to 11 inches of rain on Guam.

One doesn't have time to plot out such a thing based around a typhoon in five days while hoping it actually hits your relatively tiny island when it can turn in any given directon in that amount of time...just like a hurricane.

[Arraxis]

I've got an issue with the music in the demo version of Umineko. It seems that some of the file names got corrupted - I downloaded it from Mirror 12 if it helps. Anyway, I checked with a Youtube video of the VN to make sure music was supposed to play in that area, and it does. The file that matches it is for some reason named ë-é¦öÓ.ogg - obviously not the real name of it. After the opening, there is no music until Maria arrives.

I don't think it is an issue with Japanese character support, since if I copy-paste hiragana and such, it'll register. I've attempted changing the region and language to Japan, but it doesn't affect the file names. I'm using Vista. Is it possible to help me out here? Whether by helping me rename the files manually or something else. Hopefully it is just an issue with the demo, since I'm really interested in buying the first 4 episodes, and don't want to end up with music that doesn't work.

[Christen]

Your filenames are incorrect. They should be in Japanese.

[Tomoya-kun]

Originally Posted by Arraxis

Hopefully it is just an issue with the demo, since I'm really interested in buying the first 4 episodes, and don't want to end up with music that doesn't work.

Yup. It's just a demo problem. The same thing happened to me when I downloaded it. Basically some of the songs won't play and you won't get some of the sound effects either, but everything should work fine in the full game itself.

[Echoman]

The way I see it...

Spoiler for About the general nature of the "game" though nothing terribly spoilerish imo:

Anything Battler sees, before 12:00 AM of the 6th, can pretty much be taken at face value. The 6th is outside the scope of the game, so anything happening then is considered irrelevant, and thus Beato can pretty much do whatever, and when he's seeing things that other people see, he's pretty much just being given Beato's interpretation. Not that it's ALWAYS going to be false, as with the George/Shannon ring scene, but it can't be trusted as much as things that Battler is personally there to witness.

Something I've been wondering for a while though, is whether or not every act of "magic" that Beato tries to demonstrate actually has to symbolize something else, or if it's all supposed to be ignored completely. I'd give examples, but they don't really fit in the Episode 1 thread.

[Arraxis]

Yeah, I assumed they were meant to be in Japanese . Anyway, thanks for letting me know that it's a problem with the demo. Makes me feel that it might just be more worthwhile getting the full version, since missing out on some songs would ruin the atmosphere. Some of the misnamed ones sound quite impressive. Is it possible for someone who knows the names of the songs in Episode 1 to list them all here, so I can rename them manually? It seems the misnamed ones are still in alphabetical order... somehow...

[Arbane the Terrible]

Originally Posted by Echoman

Something I've been wondering for a while though, is whether or not every act of "magic" that Beato tries to demonstrate actually has to symbolize something else, or if it's all supposed to be ignored completely. I'd give examples, but they don't really fit in the Episode 1 thread.

I'm inclined to believe they're symbolic, just because it would be bizarre for the author to write _so_ much that needs to be completely disregarded. As for _how_ they relate to what's "really" going on... not enough information to guess.

[Arachanox]

Spoiler for TIPS:

They don't mention anyone dying for the third twilight.


First Krauss, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, Shannon, Gohda
Second Eva, Hideyoshi
Third ???
Fourth Kinzo
Fifth Kanon
Sixth Genji
Seventh Nanjo
Eighth Kumasawa
Ninth Natsuhi

Important/unimportant?

[Raneh]

Originally Posted by Arachanox

Spoiler for TIPS:

They don't mention anyone dying for the third twilight.


First Krauss, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, Shannon, Gohda
Second Eva, Hideyoshi
Third ???
Fourth Kinzo
Fifth Kanon
Sixth Genji
Seventh Nanjo
Eighth Kumasawa
Ninth Natsuhi

Important/unimportant?

At the third twilight, the surviving shall praise my honorable name on high.

There is no gouging/killing supposed to happen at the third twilight

[Arachanox]

Ah, good point. Thanks

[rogerpepitone]

At the third twilight, those who remain shall praise my honorable name on high.

Nobody dies at the third twilight.

[Arraxis]

Anyway, I bought Episode 4 off of HimeyaShop, so now all I have to do is wait for it to come in, install the patch, then I can play . I do hope it won't take too long, as the anime is pretty good, and more often than not the original source material is better.