Shakugan no Shana II - Episode 16 Discussion / Poll

[cnnydz]

Originally Posted by UPR

YES. Because he knew Margery or Shana or Whilhelmina could fix everything no problem.

i am so tired of hearing this, THERE IS NO GUARANTEE THAT EVERYTHING WILL BE FIXED , the fuzetsu was set up by yuji so if yuji is killed then the fuzetsu will go "puff" and everyone hurt will die. and even if he didn't die it is unlikely they will have enough POE to fix everything if the fight went on any longer. in fact they didn't have enough POE after the fight, many students with minor injures(bruises and broken bones) were not healed. so stop criticizing Tanaka.

[Proto]

Because he knew Margery or Shana or Whilhelmina could fix everything no problem. It has happened BEFORE.

While personally I agree with you that people should only think rationally and discard their feelings, since anything that is not rational thinking only hampers the further development of humanity[/sarcasm], you have to understand that the characters are modeled after actual humans, and as such seeing pseudo simulations of your dearest other one being killed in front of you is not an experience many people would like to see more than... zero times.

This series thjeme has always been about the interaction of both humans and the extra-terrestial beings of Guze interacting and growing relationships with each other, each one bringing their own emotional baggage into this interaction while trying to understand each other. Humans acting like humans (with everything that that statement implies) is what one would expect from this series instead of characters acting like something that one woulld expect from a shounen manga.

[Whitemoon648]

Originally Posted by ZODDGUTS

sigh I have a bad feeling that there going to do that drag out the whole love triangle to the very end of the series. They really need to get rid of her and for Yuji and Shana to leave the city but it seems the author/creator of Shakugan no Shana is playing it safe by keeping the whole love triangle going and keeping both Yuji and Shana in the city as long as possible. Would really like to what sort of adventures they would have outside the city but it doesn't seem it's gonna happen.

i dont want them to get rid of her. Make her stronger and then seperate them. Or Maybe even make her Dark Yoshida-san . That would be so fun.

You know how in some anime they make the nice and caring characters into evil characters?

[Owaranai Destiny]

Originally Posted by UPR

YES. Because he knew Margery or Shana or Whilhelmina could fix everything no problem. It has happened BEFORE. It was not the first time. Get over yourself. Again it just disrupts flow. And personally I don't want to see minutes of him crying like a baby when there are actual problems and where people can actually die.

I must really have missed it. What has happened before that concerned the people he really cared for in comparison to what happened now? I assume you are talking about season 1, or else the fact that it's simply anything or anyone which/who has been severely injured. Ogata Matake is not simply just 'anyone' to him currently.

You know, it's precisely that Tanaka has seen this before and he knows the consequences that he was able to understand how fearful it is to lose someone you love, especially if you keep your connections with someone from the other world as strong as he wanted it to be in the past.

And again, I wonder what flow you're talking about? The main plot? The issues amongst Kazumi, Shana and Yuuji?

[CapoExecutor]

Originally Posted by lua thien

Hecate is literally the purity of essence but I guess it seems that Konoe's memories with Yuji and the experiences of humanity have some unforseen consequences. Ya think she might get bored in just reliving those memories of Konoe Fumina in a timeless cycle that Hecate would hunger for new memories?

So who would be the purity of form in the Shakugan no Shana universe?

Interesting point, considering that she mentioned that she's synchronized and absorbed the desires of others before. Yet, her core isn't tarnished but time will tell if Konoe's memories prove otherwise.

I doubt there's someone with the purity of form in all the Guze but don't give your hopes up yet.

Heh, quite a Starcraft addict.

Originally Posted by Alea Misa

Its interesting the color thing...
Imo, I think the color red for Shana relates to Alastor, for judgement, but he also had the capacity to love in the past. Though I think there is more to red for Shana...Red can be associated with courage, fire, action, or anger/temper, which are both apart of Shana's character. Red can also mean vitality, war, and survival, and that is usually what Shana has to deal with consistently.
As for Yuji, Blue is the color of water or sky, which most often is associated with communication, loyalty, truth, affection, friendship, emotions, mental strength, compassion, perception, protective, and calm, which is apart of Yuji's character. Yuji has a way of balancing out Shana's traits, and vice versa.
While Kazumi is Yellow, it is associated with awareness, expression, youth, brightness, warmth, playful, and mental activity, which fits her character pretty well, if you think about it.
As for the crucifix that Pheles gave her, I agree with Owaranai.

Spoiler for continue...:

Most likely the crucifix would mean sacrifice. Kazumi is only human, she doesn't belong in Shana and Yuji's world, but since she insists on associating with both of them and their situations and wants to be of use to them both, Pheles gave her something that she would be able to do. Kazumi cannot expect everything to go the way she planned, Shana and Yuji both learned that, and accept that, and Kazumi is no exception to that. Just because she cares, doesn't mean it will entitle her to everything she wants. At least Pheles gave her a choice for some sort of purpose and role, she can still choose what she wants, but this time she has a chance for her existence to mean something. I'm not sure about the exact words Pheles said to Kazumi, as I don't really understand Japanese, but perhaps, Kazumi's life would mean her current life (as her body doesn't have the capacity for Pheles), but not her entire existence. Though I'm not sure if this story has the cycle of death and rebirth, and reincarnation, but I don't remember it talking about that, so who knows.

Well written. The crucifix seems appropriate for the meaning of sacrifice but will it be a worthy one or will it be for nothing? I think that Pheles might be unwittingly telling Kazumi to walk away while she still can. She probably should've given Kazumi a Bible as well. Only those who are Guze-aware would notice that Yoshida had died. I wonder if her younger brother Ken would be used in the plot.

I think someone mentioned on how the number three seems to play a role in the storyplot. Three primary colors, three people in a love triangle, three different emotions, three entities tied to the Reiji Maigo, and three different forces that seek the Reiji Maigo for different means.

[X207]

i find that crucifix a bit cold hearted. both pheles and yoshida wants to help yuji for various reasons. so calling upon pheles to help out yuji in an energency and hav yoshida dissappear in the process makes yoshida feel more like a lowly chess pawn to phele's queen. its still too harsh a lesson knowing that she'll never stop trying to stay around yuji and shana.

[Grimkill7]

I was going to give this episode an 8, but I couldn't give it any higher than a 7. Yoshida's whining has taken me over the edge. Just use that hougo Kazumi. Use it and it'll all be over quickly and painlessly. That's a good girl. **strokes Yoshida's head gently** That's a good girl.

In other seemingly related news, Yuuji is doing what appears to be something (zomgplotexplosion!). Blutsauger, blah blah blah, getting stronger, etc. etc. Imagine the previous training sessions, only Yuji has lethality now... YAY for lethality!

Over in the interesting characters camp, Wilhelmina... did pretty much nothing this episode. Your irrefutable cuteness alone can't keep you on the screen Carmel-san (Who am I kidding? Hell yes it can). Margery Daw lost one of her cohorts. I don't know how she can possibly carry on without Tanaka(?). I mean, he was practically the backbone of her power in battle. Looks like she's doomed.

Meanwhile, at the Legion of Doom's Bel Peol's HQ, things are certainly stirring up. Silver specifically. Hecanoe is just as cute as ever. I just want to pick up and squeeze her and her little hat and hope that she won't own me with her rod of doom. Scientist man is back, along with DOMIIIINOOOO! This alone got episode 16 an extra 3 points out of me. That guy is awesome.

16 wasn't action packed, but at the same time you can't call it slice-of-life either. Nor can you say that it fits between the two. This episode belongs in some kind of strange episode limbo that righteous but non-believing episodes go to when they pass on. It was a sub-par episode by season 1's standards, but a godly episode by season 2's. Keep em coming J.C. Staff.

[KholdStare]

Well that was quite boring but emotional at the same time, so I'm not sure how to rate this. It's actually an episode without someone trying to kill each other, so I'll take that. I thought what Pheles gave Kazumi was supposed to be cooler, but oh well. The BGM was good too, so 7/10.

[Kinny Riddle]

Those of you who upon hearing Yoshida might die and gloated about her needing to die quickly need to cut her some slack. How would you feel being told to your face that you have no chance in a love triangle and so you're better off dead?

For the record, I can be counted as a Yuji x Shana shipper, but I do not dislike Yoshida.

[Tokkan]

I'm not any sort of shipper, but I find Shana a better choice for Yuji. Regardless, Yoshida isn't exactly as hate-able. In fact, I like Yoshida quite a bit.

[KholdStare]

It's Kazumi, and I'm not sure why people hate her. Of course she had such a better role in season one and in season two they made her look like repetitive stalker, but she needs to be there to further fuel the romance portion of the plot...or something. Plus, she's cute, and I don't want her to die.

And yes for the record I support Yuji's relationship with Shana.

[Tokkan]

Originally Posted by KholdStare

It's Kazumi.

Kazumi to her friends, Yuji calls her Yoshida-san and so I call her Yoshida.

[Owaranai Destiny]

Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle

Those of you who upon hearing Yoshida might die and gloated about her needing to die quickly need to cut her some slack. How would you feel being told to your face that you have no chance in a love triangle and so you're better off dead?

For the record, I can be counted as a Yuji x Shana shipper, but I do not dislike Yoshida.

Bravo. My sentiments exactly. It's been quite tiresome to read post after post of forumers declaring their undying hatred for a character that doesn't deserve all that.

To be honest, I've just finished the episode, and I don't get the deal with the discussion on Eita. He hardly appeared in the episode, save to stop before Satou's house, hesitating then turning back the way he came. The talk should come in the next episode, though, because it will be nice to see how he has been affected by all this in greater depth and how this affects his relationship with Satou and Margery, now that Ogata and him are more or less secure.

No action, despite the exciting OP animation. It's nice to see that Yuuji finally has the strength to back up what he wants to do. There's not one ounce of 'wimp' in him as far as I can tell in this episode. He didn't cower or hesitate, but instead requested for Blutsauger to make himself stronger. Admirable, and this episode coupled with the previous one seemed to magnify his ability to deal with and recover from unexpected and shocking revelations, a trait shown in lesser magnitude in Season 1.

As for Kazumi...I will agree that she is slightly irritating, but that's understandable as she is feeling left out and perhaps even slightly desperate for the slightest chance she can get to be able to be with Yuuji. Her reluctant acceptance of the method to do that from Pheles is an indication, and I have her feeling she may yet have a big part to play in the events that will unfold with what is to become of Yuuji.

Good episode, but not the best I've seen of the 'aftermath' after an episode big on action. They did justify how Johan managed to come out with a sound explanation, if a little lacking in detail. Still, it's not too good to nitpick all the time.

[Whitemoon648]

Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle

Those of you who upon hearing Yoshida might die and gloated about her needing to die quickly need to cut her some slack. How would you feel being told to your face that you have no chance in a love triangle and so you're better off dead?

For the record, I can be counted as a Yuji x Shana shipper, but I do not dislike Yoshida.

I think you are taking it a bit too seriosuly here . They just mean they dont want the character to be here any more as it is anoying to them. So basically let her die. You cant really compare to reality here. still yeah it is harsh for them to say that ( iwont deny that ).

And yeah i am Yuji X shana suporter too but still dont want Yushida-san to die eaither ( like you). She should be there for the romance element of the shana series to work ( well at least the end of the whole series). She is an essential component to shana series, well because shana is halfy a romance anime.

[Altima of the Gates]

The real issue here is that people are only thinking of Kazumi here as a stalker of Yuji and nothing else. i think she is thinking about deeper things than that. This is a harsh world she is living in, so beyond some surface thoughts she might be thinking about some other important things.

Wanting more strength in order to survive - She has seen time and again exactly what these Tomogara can do and its not at all surprising that she would want more power, not to just be by Sakai-kun's side, but because she would rather not be like every other human who can be wiped out at any moment. Seriously, after seeing the battle in 15, I would want more than just an artifact where I can sacrifice myself just for a summon.

I think someone said that maybe the hougu Pheles gave her was a test for her to gain new powers, and that would be great. If not, this was pretty much the biggest slap in the face ever.

[Sirth]

Spoiler for Awakenings, and Yoshida/ Eita musings.:

Somewhere back, someone was wondering why the normal humans (Yuuji, Satou, Eita and Yoshida) can remember those that "don't exist." My guess is because they've awakened to the world, so the idea of the loss of existence doesn't affect them.

Yuuji: When he met Shana and told him he's a torch. Saw a boy disappear from his mother's hand, and she walked on. Same with another boy and his friends.
Eita and Satou: When they met Margery and learned about the world.
Yoshida: When she met Khamsin, and used the monocle on a boy as he disappeared (I think he disappeared...)
Ogata: Hasn't seen anything of the above, so she doesn't remember Fumina. Thus, she hasn't awakened like the others.

So I'm thinking, when you come into contact with a Flame Haze or Tomogara, and then you learn about the existence of their world and the torches, you then "awaken," and the traditional effects it would have on you disappear. However, you now have to live with the knowledge of this world, and your ignorance of it goes away. Ignorance is bliss, or so they say.
Course, doesn't apply to Fuuzetsu. Yuuji is a mystes, Eita and Satou had a spell cast on them/ have an item off Margery, and Yoshida has a charm from Khamsin. Obviously, Ogata has nothing.

As for Yoshida's "whining," I think it's because she loves Yuuji, but that built when she didn't realize he could disappear at a moment's notice. When she found this out, Yoshida's worries multiplied, and now has to deal with the fact that her rival, Shana, takes Yuuji deeper into a world she can't be part of, unless some happenstance comes about.
I think anyone would brood over the fact that someone you care about deeply is starting to get into something you can't be a part of. She's just walking into a world that is becoming more and more complicated, and she's not the type that would cope with such a thing so easily. Like the above, she was probably happier with her ignorance.
Eita and Satou probably could. However, despite it being fixable, Eita just saw the love of his life get essentially "killed" by someone he admired the most. I think anyone would at least be disturbed by something like that, but to see it happen to the real person despite frozen time, they could flip out. Seeing her in another fuuzetsu then reopened that wound. He's backing out before it happens again.
Satou is just that way. He's a composed person. Yuuji probably just has hidden courage and will he's never been able to see before, and is trying to shed the wimpy side to bring it to the surface. Can't wait to see him wield Blutsauger.
No offense, but I have to agree with the people above: I can understand a few people hating on Yoshida, but when it gets to 5 or 10 people in a row saying they want her dead, it gets annoying. Keep in mind, I'm one who'd like to see Yoshida forget Yuuji and go with Ike, but...

THIS is what I'm starting to like about this series. Some really good drama going on all over. I was starting to think it'd be like Bleach but shorter (No, I'm not one of those "Shana is Bleach" people. Bleach just taught me I wasn't a fan of actiony series anymore.), but now it's becoming one of my favorites.

[Anh_Minh]

I think one of the problem with Kazumi is that people don't get why she's so attached to Yuji. I know I don't.

She's one of those many anime girls, madly in love with the male lead, doing crazy stuff to be with him, and nobody knows why. Sure, Yuji is a nice guy, full of qualities. But is he worth all getting involved in that dangerous world? She's only known him a few months!

But all in all, I like her. She's nice. And her yandere side in Shana-tan is damn entertaining.

[KholdStare]

Originally Posted by Tokkan

Kazumi to her friends, Yuji calls her Yoshida-san and so I call her Yoshida.

Never mind.

[DX HBK]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I think one of the problem with Kazumi is that people don't get why she's so attached to Yuji. I know I don't.

She's one of those many anime girls, madly in love with the male lead, doing crazy stuff to be with him, and nobody knows why. Sure, Yuji is a nice guy, full of qualities. But is he worth all getting involved in that dangerous world? She's only known him a few months!

But all in all, I like her. She's nice. And her yandere side in Shana-tan is damn entertaining.

I think Yoshida had known Yuji for much longer than just a few months. Probably when they were back in primary or middle school.

[Anh_Minh]

Then you'd think she'd be less shy around him, wouldn't you? And that he wouldn't call her "Yoshida-san".