Spice and Wolf II - Episode 4 Discussion / Poll

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Ninjacat

That's a bit far-fetched. Lawrence doesn't seem to be going to the north often, if at all. He's not really familiar with obscure legends eighter, despite having one as a travelling companion. He's also very well placed to know those stories are to be taken with a very large grain of salt.

It's novel and manga canon. Don't remember about the anime.

[Ninjacat]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

It's novel and manga canon. Don't remember about the anime.

Interesting, I don't think they mention it in the anime. I wonder how he'd stumbled upon that bit of info... Thyen again it may just be one of those bits of folklore lying around...

Still, that's a pretty flimsy lie, if it's one at that. "Mythical village of giant wolves being destroyed by a giant moon-eating bear" is pretty hard to swallow, even if you know one of those giant wolves.

[typhonsentra]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

It's novel and manga canon. Don't remember about the anime.

Yeah, it's very clear in the novels that he wasn't comfortable telling her until he had complete confirmation. It just so happened that the letter she read was the final confirmation (In the novels (Could be wrong about this), I believe he asked her if she was absolutely certain about the story and she couldn't say that when he went to visit her the first time.).

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Ninjacat

Interesting, I don't think they mention it in the anime. I wonder how he'd stumbled upon that bit of info...

He does travel north. Even further north than Kumerson, I think. News and legends travels in every direction, including southward. They met halfway.

Thyen again it may just be one of those bits of folklore lying around...

Still, that's a pretty flimsy lie, if it's one at that.

That's the problem: impossible to know how Horo would interpret the hint of falsehood in "I never heard about it".

"Mythical village of giant wolves being destroyed by a giant moon-eating bear" is pretty hard to swallow, even if you know one of those giant wolves.

Yes and no. He heard it was destroyed. Even if the details, which he may or may not have heard, are fantastical, the main point is that it was destroyed. Who cares how?

[Ninjacat]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yes and no. He heard it was destroyed. Even if the details, which he may or may not have heard, are fantastical, the main point is that it was destroyed. Who cares how?

I think the 'how' is pretty important when we're talking about a pack of house-sized wolves. As Lawrence said last episode legends can be pretty inaccurate and politically charged. And he's right; as far as the church is concern Horo is a demon who also never exist, that's two lies right there. Horo lived for centuries in a village, and even their legends were pretty inacurate regarding her.

It might have been destroyed, or it might have been a rumor spread by some king who wanted to diminish the power of the wolf-worshippers. That stuff happened a lot in real life.

I know the village being destroyed is canon, but you can't blame Lawrence for not knowing that. We can blame him for keeping Horo in the dark, even though he meant well. Shit happens and the timing was pretty bad; Lawrence was busy and pushing asside Horo at the time, she was feeling a bit insecure already and she's not the most stable individual to begin with. Lawrence meeting strange women and willing to wager his relationship with her didn't help.

A female scented letter adressed to her companion, telling of her own village's destruction... It would have been hard to take in the best circumstances.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Ninjacat

I think the 'how' is pretty important when we're talking about a pack of house-sized wolves. As Lawrence said last episode legends can be pretty inaccurate and politically charged. And he's right; as far as the church is concern Horo is a demon who also never exist, that's two lies right there. Horo lived for centuries in a village, and even their legends were pretty inacurate regarding her.

It might have been destroyed, or it might have been a rumor spread by some king who wanted to diminish the power of the wolf-worshippers. That stuff happened a lot in real life.

I know the village being destroyed is canon, but you can't blame Lawrence for not knowing that. We can blame him for keeping Horo in the dark, even though he meant well. Shit happens and the timing was pretty bad; Lawrence was busy and pushing asside Horo at the time, she was feeling a bit insecure already and she's not the most stable individual to begin with. Lawrence meeting strange women and willing to wager his relationship with her didn't help.

Myself, I think Lawrence did... alright. Maybe I'd have done things differently, maybe not, but it's hard to say what's best. But that's not the point.

The point is, Lawrence can't say "You're wrong, I didn't know about Yoitsu's destruction when I met you" without Horo hearing the lie in that sentence and making things much, much worse.

[Ninjacat]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Myself, I think Lawrence did... alright. Maybe I'd have done things differently, maybe not, but it's hard to say what's best. But that's not the point.

The point is, Lawrence can't say "You're wrong, I didn't know about Yoitsu's destruction when I met you" without Horo hearing the lie in that sentence and making things much, much worse.

I guess I have to concede that point.

Lawrence could have gotten creative and say something along the lines of " You're wrong, there was no reason for me to believe in Yoitsu's destruction before now!" Bullshitting is not lying!

That's not really Lawrence's style though.

[Filozof]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Myself, I think Lawrence did... alright. Maybe I'd have done things differently, maybe not, but it's hard to say what's best. But that's not the point.

The point is, Lawrence can't say "You're wrong, I didn't know about Yoitsu's destruction when I met you" without Horo hearing the lie in that sentence and making things much, much worse.

agree.

plus you are thinking too much into Horo's outburst, she already said she is sorry.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Filozof

agree.

plus you are thinking too much into Horo's outburst, she already said she is sorry.

Well all depends on how we interpret that sorry. I mean it could be saying sorry about blowing up like that. Or it could be "sorry, but I need some time." Or it could be a few other things. Since they haven't spoken since that moment in episode 3 there hasn't been a chance to clarify.

Anyways I agree that it could have become an even bigger disaster if Lawrence had tried to say that he knew nothing about Yoitsu. Right now he needs to work on making his plan succeed and then try to speak with Horo after.

[Von Himmel]

Err. . can someone explain what Lawrence's strategy is to lower the price and take some profits from Amarti ? I still can't understand how Lawrence is going to take profits from the credits. .

So, in the end, Amarti should pay an equal amount of money that Lawrence paid him ? Uu-! can't understand this ! uu-uu !

[bladeofdarkness]

lawrence promised him 500 worth of pyret at its CORRENT price on credit
if the prices drop then lawrence gives him something worth LESS then 500 (because it was originally worth 500, before the price drop)
and he gets 500 anyway because its the promised figure

but if the prices raise then lawrence gives him something worth MORE then 500 and only gets 500 for it

and the reason why i think he is doing this is because that way he takes away Amarti's OTHER means of payment (money) , and making him depend entirely on pyret (merchandise)
so if the value of the merchandise drops, Armati cant pay up

[golthin]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

lawrence promised him 500 worth of pyret at its CORRENT price on credit
if the prices drop then lawrence gives him something worth LESS then 500 (because it was originally worth 500, before the price drop)
and he gets 500 anyway because its the promised figure

but if the prices raise then lawrence gives him something worth MORE then 500 and only gets 500 for it

and the reason why i think he is doing this is because that way he takes away Amarti's OTHER means of payment (money) , and making him depend entirely on pyret (merchandise)
so if the value of the merchandise drops, Armati cant pay up

the 500 in credit is part of his strategy but not all of it. lawrence also will sell pyret to lower the price so it cuts in the profits of amati and helps him because he only need to give the set amount of pyret regardless of the price. the only reason Amati accepted this lousy deal was out of pride, as lawrence baited him into anger. much like Amati baited lawrence before with his contract.

[Filozof]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Well all depends on how we interpret that sorry. I mean it could be saying sorry about blowing up like that. Or it could be "sorry, but I need some time." Or it could be a few other things. Since they haven't spoken since that moment in episode 3 there hasn't been a chance to clarify.

Anyways I agree that it could have become an even bigger disaster if Lawrence had tried to say that he knew nothing about Yoitsu. Right now he needs to work on making his plan succeed and then try to speak with Horo after.

she is still helping him (sending him the list of amati's assets and still invalid marriage contract), and in my short list of posts there are one or two that explain what i think of horo. -basically i think she is to wise to do something realy stupid(or childish, not to be so offensive)
she had a moment of weakness and had an outburst, she apologised in i think a sincere tone.
i think she could be a bit mad, but that's because lawrence doesn't trust her completly just yet and is still avoiding her.

[bladeofdarkness]

you have to remember that for all that she is an incredibly likable charactrer, horo is not human
she may look human, but she is as much wolf as she is (wo)man
and that means that you cant predict how she'd react when pushed far enough

[Filozof]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

you have to remember that for all that she is an incredibly likable charactrer, horo is not human
she may look human, but she is as much wolf as she is (wo)man
and that means that you cant predict how she'd react when pushed far enough

I don't base my opinions on shalow atributes like that.

[Vexx]

I think what bladeofdarkness is saying isn't "shallow" -- it is something intrinsically true for interactions between any two beings who do not come from the same background.
If you think of Horo as an alien from Arcturus whose entire experience and culture has never had any attachment to anything associated with Earth, one could easily imagine the enormous number of possibilities for misunderstandings, missed cues, completely unexpected reactions. Heck, even between two humans this happens - someone raised in Asia interacting someone raised in Europe. All it takes is a difference in the set of expectations.

Horo is a being of Wolf Culture -- but she's been away from it for hundreds of years and gotten to rub up against a lot of Human Culture. So she's like a foreign exchange student who seems to have comprehensible reactions to events most of the time but occasionally has a completely unexpected reaction to some things.

[gonzo562]

this episode was alright. I gave it a 8 cuz not enough horo in this episode

[bladeofdarkness]

thank you Vexx
its pretty much exactly what i was going for
horo isnt a normal human, and so her reactions to a clearly distressing situation (judging from her reaction, its very distressing) can not be easily predicted

[Filozof]

Originally Posted by Vexx

I think what bladeofdarkness is saying isn't "shallow" -- it is something intrinsically true for interactions between any two beings who do not come from the same background.
If you think of Horo as an alien from Arcturus whose entire experience and culture has never had any attachment to anything associated with Earth, one could easily imagine the enormous number of possibilities for misunderstandings, missed cues, completely unexpected reactions. Heck, even between two humans this happens - someone raised in Asia interacting someone raised in Europe. All it takes is a difference in the set of expectations.

Horo is a being of Wolf Culture -- but she's been away from it for hundreds of years and gotten to rub up against a lot of Human Culture. So she's like a foreign exchange student who seems to have comprehensible reactions to events most of the time but occasionally has a completely unexpected reaction to some things.

perhaps i should delete second part of bladeofdarkness's post, because i wasnt' replying to it.
this is what i was replying to:

you have to remember that for all that she is an incredibly likable charactrer

and if i take the second part of his post in consideration, he is asuming that i haven't considered that already. and there is no basis in my posts/opinions to asume that. and it is also not true.

[Vexx]

Hmmmm, no if you parse the sentence - he really isn't assuming you haven't considered that.

Its the "...FOR ALL THAT..." that shifts the meaning. Another way to say it is "despite being a very likeable character".

Isn't grammar fun?