Tate no Yuusha/Shield Hero Season 3 Anime Episode Discussion

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Yeah, that Fohl didn't fight back made little sense. Ah, well. I guess I was more upset that the whole story again leaned into the slavery angle with Naofumi gleefully making the slavers slaves themselves, with some BS "Well, we can't execute them, because some noble might get upset about stuff he'll never know if we don't tell anybody" reason.

Other than that, the season is pretty solid so far. Not a "dying horse" by any measure.

What makes you think people won't know if a nobleman is killed? And how is it in any way "leaning into" it to make an example of those that continue the practice? If anything, it's probably the most effective and fitting deterrent to make it clear that if you ignore the Queen's orders and try to enslave citizens from his territory, he will himself ignore those rules and sell them as slaves to people that will treat them the way they'd have treated his citizens.

[Twi]

What was a nobleman doing in the Shield Hero's land that merited being killed? If anyone knew where he was then they'd be likely to be considered conspirators, whereas if he was going there and kidnapping people in secret then who knows?

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

What makes you think people won't know if a nobleman is killed?

Because, as far as I know, nobody outside of the people Naofumi can trust will know that the nobleman slaver and his guys are dead, if they execute them on the spot. It's not as if a silent alarm is triggered somewhere because some noble died somewhere else.

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

And how is it in any way "leaning into" it to make an example of those that continue the practice? If anything, it's probably the most effective and fitting deterrent to make it clear that if you ignore the Queen's orders and try to enslave citizens from his territory, he will himself ignore those rules and sell them as slaves to people that will treat them the way they'd have treated his citizens.

Because it perpetuates the cycle of slavery. Now that other nobles will, inevitably now, know that Naofumi sold one of their kind as a slave, they will feel more motivated in taking revenge, best done in their mind by, big surprise, making more slaves out of beastfolk.

[SuitUp]

Youd think that Naofumi, being basically god in the flesh for the beastfolk and their country would be very keen in liberating ALL the beastfolk slaves he comes across, not just the ones specific to Raphtalia's village

[Twi]

I'm pretty sure he's basically doing this as a favor to Raph more than anything else. He never cared about the title or legacy of the Shield Hero to start with.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Because, as far as I know, nobody outside of the people Naofumi can trust will know that the nobleman slaver and his guys are dead, if they execute them on the spot. It's not as if a silent alarm is triggered somewhere because some noble died somewhere else.



Because it perpetuates the cycle of slavery. Now that other nobles will, inevitably now, know that Naofumi sold one of their kind as a slave, they will feel more motivated in taking revenge, best done in their mind by, big surprise, making more slaves out of beastfolk.

Really? A man closely associated with the nobility like this dies within his home country, and "no one" will know? I honestly find that highly doubtful. Especially since they were spotted by a knight who clearly has a moral code that won't exactly allow her to fail to report the situation, along with her entire squad. The man himself might have been making some mistaken assumptions when he said his execution would ruin the village: they might have been able to make it so that he and all his numerous men were never there, avoiding the retaliation, but once everyone else showed up it became honestly impossible.

And as for the "it perpetuates the cycle of slavery" bit, that's a much more complicated issue. It takes a lot of assumptions on all sides to say whether nobility will feel more motivation or justification in retaliating after one of their kin's execution versus selling them into slavery. But honestly I sincerely doubt that any action will make them less inclined to express their animosity by enslaving the beastkin. This is what they've been doing, it's the most profitable, and it's the most satisfying path for them as it allows them to commit atrocities on the race that they hold so much resentment toward. Ultimately though, punishment is often more about what will deter others. And that's where there's room for debate. Sure there might be some who will take from this "these monsters commit the atrocities of enslaving our kin, we must destroy them and enslave the survivors". But there will also definitely be those who say "these monsters were able to wipe out this force, and instead of just chopping their heads off, they sent them off to a lifetime of pain". A swift death may for many be much easier to accept than the horror of being turned over to an enemy that worships the one they just crossed and harbors all the same prejudices toward them that they themselves hold.

Honestly, this falls too easily into the same nonsense that'd been going on until now: interpreting anything that could have an outcome that increases slavery as "the story is perpetuating/leaning into slavery". It's very easy to say such things, but honestly I find it rather pointless. It's not such a simple thing that any choice will really have a completely positive outcome or completely demonstrate the evils of slavery. Ultimately though, I'd say that punishing people who would break the law and try to enslave innocent children by making them experience the exact future they intended to subject those kids to is a fair demonstration of where it stands morally. Just like executing a murderer isn't "perpetuating the cycle of killing" but just demonstrating what some moral systems would deem a fitting punishment and making it clear to those that would do it again what they'd risk if they tried.

Similarly, I find it kind of ridiculous when people say stuff like "Naofumi should annihilate the slave trade" or "Naofumi should free every slave he encounters". He's revered as a god by a foreign country, yes. But he's still really just a man, with limited funds and plenty of limits to what he can do without crippling himself. He has to be practical and do what he can with what he has. Don't condemn him for not risking the survival and of his people every time he sees someone else who might suffer. It wouldn't be practical for him to be able to do anything, and if he did pull that much off it'd make him far too unbelievable and perfect.

[Frontier]

To be honest I stopped taking the slavery aspect seriously when it became part of the shows' powerup conceit and the Slave Merchant has a near identical family .

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Frontier

To be honest I stopped taking the slavery aspect seriously when it became part of the shows' powerup conceit and the Slave Merchant has a near identical family .

Naofumi essentially agrees. He doesn’t enforce any slave demands unless they mean him harm.

[frubam]

Decent 3rd episode. Nice to see the tigers get saved, and Atla on the road to recovery. Could have honestly done without the random bandits; it was a bit absurd just any ol' bandits could retake the town, considering if Kohl didn't get to the flare, all of them would have been recaptured(at the very least, for a time) and Kohl would be dead. If the author used the bandits status as being noble-affiliated as a setup for Siltvelt relations between humans and demis to lead in to the backstory of the ex-King, then it would at least be something. We'll see... never liked the ex-King, but his backstory has piqued my interest to wonder about his hatred of the Shield Hero.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Really? A man closely associated with the nobility like this dies within his home country, and "no one" will know? I honestly find that highly doubtful. Especially since they were spotted by a knight who clearly has a moral code that won't exactly allow her to fail to report the situation, along with her entire squad. The man himself might have been making some mistaken assumptions when he said his execution would ruin the village: they might have been able to make it so that he and all his numerous men were never there, avoiding the retaliation, but once everyone else showed up it became honestly impossible.

You mean that knight (Eclair) who is a direct subordinate to Naofumi (and his friend) and the squad which is made up by soldiers who directly venerate Naofumi as the Shield Hero? I kinda doubt that the execution of the noble would have made the news under those circumstances. But whatever, plot convenience.

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

And as for the "it perpetuates the cycle of slavery" bit, that's a much more complicated issue. It takes a lot of assumptions on all sides to say whether nobility will feel more motivation or justification in retaliating after one of their kin's execution versus selling them into slavery. But honestly I sincerely doubt that any action will make them less inclined to express their animosity by enslaving the beastkin. This is what they've been doing, it's the most profitable, and it's the most satisfying path for them as it allows them to commit atrocities on the race that they hold so much resentment toward. Ultimately though, punishment is often more about what will deter others. And that's where there's room for debate. Sure there might be some who will take from this "these monsters commit the atrocities of enslaving our kin, we must destroy them and enslave the survivors". But there will also definitely be those who say "these monsters were able to wipe out this force, and instead of just chopping their heads off, they sent them off to a lifetime of pain". A swift death may for many be much easier to accept than the horror of being turned over to an enemy that worships the one they just crossed and harbors all the same prejudices toward them that they themselves hold.

Honestly, this falls too easily into the same nonsense that'd been going on until now: interpreting anything that could have an outcome that increases slavery as "the story is perpetuating/leaning into slavery". It's very easy to say such things, but honestly I find it rather pointless. It's not such a simple thing that any choice will really have a completely positive outcome or completely demonstrate the evils of slavery. Ultimately though, I'd say that punishing people who would break the law and try to enslave innocent children by making them experience the exact future they intended to subject those kids to is a fair demonstration of where it stands morally. Just like executing a murderer isn't "perpetuating the cycle of killing" but just demonstrating what some moral systems would deem a fitting punishment and making it clear to those that would do it again what they'd risk if they tried.

Similarly, I find it kind of ridiculous when people say stuff like "Naofumi should annihilate the slave trade" or "Naofumi should free every slave he encounters". He's revered as a god by a foreign country, yes. But he's still really just a man, with limited funds and plenty of limits to what he can do without crippling himself. He has to be practical and do what he can with what he has. Don't condemn him for not risking the survival and of his people every time he sees someone else who might suffer. It wouldn't be practical for him to be able to do anything, and if he did pull that much off it'd make him far too unbelievable and perfect.

The point is that he isn't even trying to abolish slavery, something he has the standing to at least try to do, but instead feeds further into the system. It's not the same situation as with Rudy in Mushoku Tensei, who does not have the social standing (and doesn't want it) to change how things get done in his fantasy world. Naofumi is an integral part of this worlds entire survival, is well recognized by multiple heads of state and is about the only person among the four heroes who gets shit done. If he'd put his foot down, he'd get somewhere. But that is the edgelordy part of Naofumi's personality I never really jive with, he is at times a selfish bastard, who goes "got mine, fuck the rest".

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

You mean that knight (Eclair) who is a direct subordinate to Naofumi (and his friend) and the squad which is made up by soldiers who directly venerate Naofumi as the Shield Hero? I kinda doubt that the execution of the noble would have made the news under those circumstances. But whatever, plot convenience.

Have you never heard of Lawful Good? Eclair is Naofumi's subordinate, but she's also a soldier of the kingdom under the Queen. I for one find it hard to buy that she'd feel right covering things up.

The point is that he isn't even trying to abolish slavery, something he has the standing to at least try to do, but instead feeds further into the system. It's not the same situation as with Rudy in Mushoku Tensei, who does not have the social standing (and doesn't want it) to change how things get done in his fantasy world. Naofumi is an integral part of this worlds entire survival, is well recognized by multiple heads of state and is about the only person among the four heroes who gets shit done. If he'd put his foot down, he'd get somewhere. But that is the edgelordy part of Naofumi's personality I never really jive with, he is at times a selfish bastard, who goes "got mine, fuck the rest".

For starters, if I understand right, slavery HAS been abolished. There are still illegal slavers out there, but they've been forced to work underground or in more lawless locations. The trader himself has to pick and choose where he works as a result. And I'd say you're seriously overstating Naofumi's political power. The Queen isn't able to fully eradicate slavery, so what makes you think a Hero that many in their nation still revile as the devil incarnate can? Not to mention that the reason he has as much standing as he does is because they're in a time of CRISIS. It's not going to be very long at all before they face a new enemy that by all accounts will be at least if not far more powerful than the one that nearly crushed him and all his allies, killing countless people in the process. He's got bigger things on his mind than the remnants of a corrupt institution, things like gathering as many allies as his standing and finances currently DO allow him to gather, keeping them safe, and training as many of them as he can to be able to fight at his side. And if achieving his more pressing goals means he has to work with unsavory people in vile trades, then he'll do so.

This's my problem. People keep saying nonsense like "He's not even TRYING to stop this thing", completely ignoring the size of what they want him to stop, the amount of time and effort it'd take to even make an attempt, and the fact that he has MUCH bigger concerns. If he's still around after the four beasts have been annihilated and whatever is causing the Waves has been neutralized, then you can preach about how he needs to do something about the continued presence of slavery, but for now he has to focus on what will get other, more urgent jobs done as soon as possible. And for that, what matters here is making it clear to anyone that would try to harm or kidnap the citizens of his territory that such actions would be a very bad idea. To that end, making it clear that the punishment will match the crime is a simple yet effective message to his enemies.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Have you never heard of Lawful Good? Eclair is Naofumi's subordinate, but she's also a soldier of the kingdom under the Queen. I for one find it hard to buy that she'd feel right covering things up.

I disagree, but again, plot convenience to make Naofumi use slavery, because the writer clearly has a fetish for it.

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

For starters, if I understand right, slavery HAS been abolished. There are still illegal slavers out there, but they've been forced to work underground or in more lawless locations. The trader himself has to pick and choose where he works as a result. And I'd say you're seriously overstating Naofumi's political power. The Queen isn't able to fully eradicate slavery, so what makes you think a Hero that many in their nation still revile as the devil incarnate can? Not to mention that the reason he has as much standing as he does is because they're in a time of CRISIS. It's not going to be very long at all before they face a new enemy that by all accounts will be at least if not far more powerful than the one that nearly crushed him and all his allies, killing countless people in the process. He's got bigger things on his mind than the remnants of a corrupt institution, things like gathering as many allies as his standing and finances currently DO allow him to gather, keeping them safe, and training as many of them as he can to be able to fight at his side. And if achieving his more pressing goals means he has to work with unsavory people in vile trades, then he'll do so.

This's my problem. People keep saying nonsense like "He's not even TRYING to stop this thing", completely ignoring the size of what they want him to stop, the amount of time and effort it'd take to even make an attempt, and the fact that he has MUCH bigger concerns. If he's still around after the four beasts have been annihilated and whatever is causing the Waves has been neutralized, then you can preach about how he needs to do something about the continued presence of slavery, but for now he has to focus on what will get other, more urgent jobs done as soon as possible. And for that, what matters here is making it clear to anyone that would try to harm or kidnap the citizens of his territory that such actions would be a very bad idea. To that end, making it clear that the punishment will match the crime is a simple yet effective message to his enemies.

The anime is not about slavery, but about saving the world from the invasions. That the writer is again and again hammering on the slavery button is for no good reason but to make Naofumi use it, is in my eyes bad writing. And the writing would be no more good or bad if Naofumi would use his immense leverage (he's the only one around who is actually doing something so that not everybody gets killed) to actually enforce the abolishment of slavery, instead of re-enforcing it. Which, again, is plot convenience by the writer to push his slavery fetish onto the viewers.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I disagree, but again, plot convenience to make Naofumi use slavery, because the writer clearly has a fetish for it.



The anime is not about slavery, but about saving the world from the invasions. That the writer is again and again hammering on the slavery button is for no good reason but to make Naofumi use it, is in my eyes bad writing. And the writing would be no more good or bad if Naofumi would use his immense leverage (he's the only one around who is actually doing something so that not everybody gets killed) to actually enforce the abolishment of slavery, instead of re-enforcing it. Which, again, is plot convenience by the writer to push his slavery fetish onto the viewers.

Okay, seriously, don't go accusing authors of having "fetishes" for things, especially something like this. Not to mention it's hard to call it a "fetish" when there's absolutely no point where slavery is presented in any way remotely approaching that. Heck, the few positive slave relationships never have anything remotely resembling a master-slave dynamic. Calling that a fetish is like saying a person has a furry fetish when he wrote a story where many characters are identified as being "beast-people" but never drew any transformations or any figures remotely different from human, not even animal ears. And then when he finally does show a character with some animalistic features and behaviors, she's treated as annoying and pathetic.

And of course slavery comes up again and again. In a world with major conflicts, those conflicts won't automatically stop because a big threat is looming, especially if it's not a "whole world all together all at once" type of threat. But again, that doesn't mean that the heroes themselves are going to drop their preparations for the next threat every time they see something unpleasant. Pretending the slavery just suddenly disappeared in itself would be seriously bad writing, and entirely unbelievable, and I'm quite certain plenty of people would complain about serious issues being brought up for convenience then brushed under the rug when no longer useful. It's a difficult subject that can't be discarded believably, can't be eradicated believably because again Naofumi has power, but not near as much as you like to insist, and can't continue to be present because obviously some people will be convinced that the author just "likes" it.

I'm not saying Naofumi's a saint or anything. This is a situation where there is no definitively good or bad answer or right or wrong. That's why I hate people making absolute statements to declare this "supportive" of slavery or some nonsense like that.

I've been following this from the start, and I will say I have not seen one single point where slavery is "fetishized" to even the slightest degree. On the contrary, the very presence of any level of a subservient attitude is treated as a serious and downright annoying flaw that needs to be corrected. This isn't the best presentation possible, obviously, but it's not the sort of bad writing or fetishization/support of slavery people like yourself keep claiming. People just interpret it that way and have from the moment Raphtalia decided that getting the crest replaced would be the best way to prove to a still-broken Naofumi that he could trust her as much as she trusted him. It was a way to convey a moving act of trust in a story where that, again, is one of the major themes, but it was easy for people to just declare as an "obvious" demonstration of some sort of deviant tastes.

Look, if you want to insist that the author has some sort of slavery fetish then go ahead; don't get why you'd watch it if you think it's that bad (and don't say you don't when you just went on about it being badly written) but go ahead. Personally, I get the feeling that if he is catering to any fetish it's that of punishment/vengeance. Which is quite popular these days, and frequently does involve slavery as there's a certain satisfaction in seeing an oppressor so thoroughly oppressed. Thus the scene when he's told what'll happen to him and he breaks down in horror: the point isn't some fantasy about having the power to control others, but rather having the power to turn the tables on those that'd abused such power and make them personally experience the other side. Naofumi isn't ever portrayed controlling others, and those associated with him are never portrayed like simpering slaves, but he most certainly is portrayed as willing to hurt those that hurt him and thoroughly enjoy it. Again, not moral, but not "perpetuating" or "fetishizing" slavery.

PS, sorry for being so long-winded and probably wandering aimlessly. I'm not always very good at organizing and summarizing my thoughts.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

This's my problem. People keep saying nonsense like "He's not even TRYING to stop this thing", completely ignoring the size of what they want him to stop, the amount of time and effort it'd take to even make an attempt, and the fact that he has MUCH bigger concerns.

I think a point is that the author could have addressed literally this -- that Naofumi would like to solve the issue since he finds it problematic, but he realizes he has limited time and other major priorities so he can only do what he can. Even just simply acknowledging that in the story is a way of at least partly addressing the elephant in the room, and then they could just leave the whole issue of slavery behind (as, like, a sort of necessary evil Naofumi had to resort to when getting started due to his oppression, but not a good thing and he's moving forward). But instead, the author keeps leaning back into it as a plot device, even though it's really unnecessary to do so. The author wants to keep using it as a plot device, for whatever reason.

I would tend to agree with magnuskn's assertion that it's the author's fetish, tied back to the notion of not being able to trust women with the potential to betray. If you're thinking about Naofumi's character arc, I think it would have been more powerful for him to make an effort to overcome and reject it, rather than continue to lean into it. So anyway, yeah, I just think it's a bit of missed potential, if nothing else. It's one area where I feel the hand of the author comes through too strongly. There's enough else going on in the story that I tend to think it's an unnecessary distraction.

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Look, if you want to insist that the author has some sort of slavery fetish then go ahead; don't get why you'd watch it if you think it's that bad (and don't say you don't when you just went on about it being badly written) but go ahead.

I think you're getting a little bit too personal in all this defense of the story. Someone can find one aspect of the story flawed, but still find enough to like in the other parts that they still find it overall worth their time. I don't think he's saying that the story is a piece of crap or irredeemable, just that this particular aspect isn't well-written in his opinion. Clearly it doesn't bother you as much, and that's fine too. We don't need to have a super-impassioned argument about it; it's just a discussion.


Also, just to be clear about this...

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

I've been following this from the start, and I will say I have not seen one single point where slavery is "fetishized" to even the slightest degree.

Raphtalia's slave crest is literally on her breasts. Rewatch the scene where the slave crest is being reapplied there -- it's absolutely fetishized. I honestly don't really see how you can deny it. But it's not like just because this is a fetish the author leans into means that the whole story is completely irredeemable.

And also:

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

On the contrary, the very presence of any level of a subservient attitude is treated as a serious and downright annoying flaw that needs to be corrected.

Yes, that attitude should be "corrected" via the shock collar effect of the slave crest, perhaps? Are you very sure that you don't understand the fetish, actually? (Honestly, I think you really don't, but...)


A lot of anime is actually at a weird intersection between some sort of fetish and a moving story. I remember we had this argument a lot of times in the past on this forum for various shows where people found the fetish aspects so overpowering to them that they don't understand why they didn't just make a "hentai" instead. This story isn't nearly that bad, I don't think, but there's still a blend here. If the slavery/bondage fetish is a bit too much to discuss rationally, you could also consider some of the "lighter" anime fetishes this show has too, like beastpeople, harem, younger love interests, etc. The elements are there and they are being pandered to, but it's not so overpowering that you can only like the show if those particular fetishes appeal to you. I'm quite sure that some people enjoy this show completely unaware of all this, while other people will find it overwhelming or uncomfortable. Honestly I think a lot of anime is like that at some level.

[Twi]

I'd honestly prefer none of the fetishes at all, because I don't watch anime for that anymore, and would rather they stick to the plot of two worlds at war.

[BWTraveller]

I'm sorry I got heated. I honestly never meant to. I was kind of in a hurry to get my thoughts down before heading somewhere, and honestly I dislike when people says stuff like "obviously the author loves X" in what sounds to me like a derogatory manner. It's a dumb line to have set, and I never meant to set it, but it lies there in my mind. I shouldn't have included that part, and for that I apologize.

I've read stuff written with or catering to fetishes. Vengeance fetishes, slavery fetishes, and many others. Some good, many very bad. I honestly can't buy that with this. Sure, there may be some sexualization of Raphtalia's breasts, but I honestly never got the impression that there was any actual interest within the story toward a master/slave dynamic. As you said, Flame, if anything it's about trust: early on he needed it to trust anyone, even a child, and now it can be seen as a demonstration of trust from the side of those that take it. But there's nothing I've seen related to actual control or dominance, which is kind of the bread and butter of standard slavery fetish material.

I also doubt the whole "can't trust women who aren't slaves" thing. That was a plot point at the start when he was initially betrayed, but it is not the case anymore. Several of the strongest women are not slaves. The only ones deliberately enslaved were Raph, who lost it and chose it out of concern due again to the trust issue (which honestly I imagine came partly from her recognizing from personal experience with betrayal that it can be hard to just accept a promise), and Filo, who Naofumi didn't know was even capable of conscious thought at the time. After that the crest has only been offered, to all of his citizens regardless of gender, for the sole purpose of exploiting the growth bonus.

And I'm sorry RF, I don't mean to be argumentative toward an admin, but seriously? Interpret "a character flaw that needs correcting" as "oh she should get shocked for being that way"? We both know that that NEVER happened. He only used the shock a handful of times at the very beginning, a couple times to get Raphtalia to actually attack, once or twice when Filo was going too wild to control, and once, cut from the anime, when Filo recklessly jumped forward and Naofumi tried to stop her in a panic (this was the time with the zombie dragon and directly caused her being eaten). As for subservience, it was never corrected, only viewed as a demonstration of how utterly obnoxious the character was, and it was corrected over time through personal character growth with momentary instants of temporary improvement, which incidentally coincided with changes in power: when subservient and willing to do anything asked without question, she's an utter weakling who can't get stronger no matter how she levels, but when she's standing firm as her own woman she's quite possibly stronger than Naofumi.

Personally, I just don't see anything in this as the author himself indulging any kind of interest in slavery itself. It could certainly have been presented differently in places, but there didn't seem to be any sign to me of wanting to actually control women or anyone. And the inability to trust was largely indifferent to gender and more importantly presented as something that needed to be grown out of. To me, it seems to be trying to say that you should know how to trust people, that it may often take effort on both sides but ultimately you shouldn't need any kind of absolute guarantee to be able to trust another person. Slavery fits well as a shape for such guarantees, and also works well as a way to demonstrate conflict, prejudice and oppression.

And yeah, I do believe that enslaving an ugly guy who'd tried to enslave the citizens was more of a "I can't kill you, so I'll do to you what you wanted to do to them". Whether this "encourages" others to try and take vengeance and lead more slave raids or convinces them that it's not worth such a risk is too uncertain to really call it an act perpetuating or discouraging the local trade.

Anyway, got long-winded again, but I'll try to leave it here.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

And I'm sorry RF, I don't mean to be argumentative toward an admin, but seriously? Interpret "a character flaw that needs correcting" as "oh she should get shocked for being that way"? We both know that that NEVER happened.

Of course, and I never say it did happen. But again, this is what it is to "flirt" with a fetish like this. Every time they bring it up, there is always some sort of "plausible explanation" as to why it's not bad/evil in that moment -- it was necessary, it's to save her life, it's a sign of her trust, she was being controlled, it's to allow them to share the hero's power, it helps him level up, etc. And, to your earlier point, they never show that Naofumi derives any pleasure in using the slave crest. In every situation, there is always some degree of plausible deniability -- a perfectly "reasonable" explanation that isn't "evil."

But the point is that they could also just, you know, not.

The author specifically wrote this slavery motif in the story, and then has to write all sorts of reasons why it's "not actually bad in this case" every time they keep bringing it up, while simultaneously calling out the "evil" slavers to contrast between Naofumi who "owns slaves, yes, but he's actually a good guy!" As Frontier said, they tied it to the powerup conceit and made a running gag of the slave owner's "family." And again, none of that really had to be in there at all. You can definitely make the argument in the opening act that there was a purpose to it -- dancing with the devil was the only way to do good. I still say that could have been a reasonable way to show Naofumi's character development. But after that, honestly, it is a bit gratuitous, leading to these accusations of "lightly" pandering to a fetish. But, again, I'm not saying it's like totally killing the story or anything. I can also understand, though, why some people feel the story would be better off without it. At the very least, like I said before, I feel like there was potential to actually do something more profound with this theme and it was sort of a missed opportunity.

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

And the inability to trust was largely indifferent to gender and more importantly presented as something that needed to be grown out of.

Well... getting his revenge by renaming Malty to Bitch is not exactly growing out of it, and "Bitch" also has a very specific derogatory gendered meaning. Yes, they also involved the father, but "Trash" isn't really the same (although it still isn't in any way mature). The story again rationalizes this as a sort of clever way around the situation... but the whole thing was contrived by the author in that way to begin with. (The author literally created Malty as a character to be a "bitch" that betrays Naofumi and was so on the nose to create a scene to literally name her that in case you missed it. )

All in all, I think I'd be a bit more suspicious of the subtext in the work, not only the literal text. Within the text there's always a justification, but you always have to consider why the author even chose to write things this way in the first place when there were plenty of other ways they could have gone with the same core plot and themes. And I think that kind of criticism is fair.



By the way, feel free to be argumentative with me as much as you like, so long as it doesn't devolve into personal attacks or anything -- I'm not here to lord my opinions over people, just to discuss.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Of course, and I never say it did happen. But again, this is what it is to "flirt" with a fetish like this. Every time they bring it up, there is always some sort of "plausible explanation" as to why it's not bad/evil in that moment -- it was necessary, it's to save her life, it's a sign of her trust, she was being controlled, it's to allow them to share the hero's power, it helps him level up, etc. And, to your earlier point, they never show that Naofumi derives any pleasure in using the slave crest. In every situation, there is always some degree of plausible deniability -- a perfectly "reasonable" explanation that isn't "evil."

But the point is that they could also just, you know, not.

The author specifically wrote this slavery motif in the story, and then has to write all sorts of reasons why it's "not actually bad in this case" every time they keep bringing it up, while simultaneously calling out the "evil" slavers to contrast between Naofumi who "owns slaves, yes, but he's actually a good guy!" As Frontier said, they tied it to the powerup conceit and made a running gag of the slave owner's "family." And again, none of that really had to be in there at all. You can definitely make the argument in the opening act that there was a purpose to it -- dancing with the devil was the only way to do good. I still say that could have been a reasonable way to show Naofumi's character development. But after that, honestly, it is a bit gratuitous, leading to these accusations of "lightly" pandering to a fetish. But, again, I'm not saying it's like totally killing the story or anything. I can also understand, though, why some people feel the story would be better off without it. At the very least, like I said before, I feel like there was potential to actually do something more profound with this theme and it was sort of a missed opportunity.



Well... getting his revenge by renaming Malty to Bitch is not exactly growing out of it, and "Bitch" also has a very specific derogatory gendered meaning. Yes, they also involved the father, but "Trash" isn't really the same (although it still isn't in any way mature).

All in all, I think I'd be a bit more suspicious of the subtext in the work, not only the literal text. Within the text there's always a justification, but you always have to consider why the author even chose to write things this way in the first place when there were plenty of other ways they could have gone with the same core plot and themes. And I think that kind of criticism is fair.



By the way, feel free to be argumentative with me as much as you like, so long as it doesn't devolve into personal attacks or anything -- I'm not here to lord my opinions over people, just to discuss.

Part of the problem with slavery in general is that it's honestly hard to use it as a device without it coming across as "flirting with the fetish". I personally didn't see it coming anywhere near that line, in fact pulling away and specifically avoiding it. Sure, that's got its own issues, as it can be easy to make it into "he's a good guy because he could torture you for being annoying but doesn't", but at least for me personally it was more of "yeah we don't want to go there and it doesn't fit with the character or what we wanted out of the inclusion of this so just, no". I'd say they did fair. I'm usually very forgiving, I know plenty well, but it honestly felt more like "I included this thing because this situation fits my 'heartlessly betrayed and unable to trust anyone' concept too well; now I've opened that box, I might as well use it". Still, he did take a pretty darn big risk opening that box. And yeah, while logically it makes sense that a guy who got the ability to power up slaves would want to use it when he knows he's about to face a kaiju, no matter how much the people consent to the situation it still is slavery.

Still, I'd say it really should've come more like what you said, perhaps show a little more distaste at the continuation of slavery to demonstrate that he's tolerating a necessary evil, maybe even show some hesitance with using the slave shield's power up. I just find it pointless to, say, denounce an act as encouraging slavery when it's either necessary to achieve a goal (such as actively searching for members of the village to save them leading to the villagers becoming valuable merchandise) or honestly hard to declare as having a quantifiable influence in one way or another. The results are hard to predict, and failure to do anything may arguably be just as bad, so why be so eager to declare the decision wrong? No point in denouncing your choice at a Morton's Fork.

And to be fair where the naming is concerned, Malty's actions were basically the textbook definition of the word "bitch", while Aultcray wasn't ever in a position to do such things due to age, gender relative to the heroes and obviously monarchial responsibilities. The author himself apparently described Naofumi as a "mirror", returning treatments as they're given. And there's a huge difference between trusting strangers or people who try to be worthy of trust and trusting, well, her.

I don't know, I've seen plenty of stories, as I said above, that are built on dominance, vengeance, control, etc., and this just doesn't feel like it's going there. Especially with the way that plenty of trust is given to many who aren't bound in any meaningful way. Just a matter of perspective I guess, but I for one don't see what some seem to see.

[magnuskn]

Yeah, what relentlessflame said. Saves me a lot of brainpower, which, to be frank, isn't there right now during the morning when my coffee hasn't kicked in yet.

While I am also an advocate of taking the story and characters as they are and working from there, it's really difficult to do when there's such an overt author appeal overlay whenever slavery comes up and also Naofumi sometimes acting up as if all his prior character development hasn't happened yet. With slavery, it seems obvious to me that the theme comes up again and again in a way where the writer can justify its use by the good guys. And that's a choice of his, not something he can't remedy if he'd wish to do so.

[scififan]

The character of each yuusha is explored by the author.

Sword yuusha lost all his teammates' lives. He ends up alone. He blames his failure on they are too weak. Mayin steps in and manipulates him.

Lance yuusha lost all his teammates' trusts. He ends up alone, too. Mayin used to kiss up to him. Now, she is falsely accusing him of wrongdoing. His morale is saved by the idol singing Filo. He calls Filo his wife and Naofumi his father. They got scared and ran away from him. Lance yuusha can still get female teammate by using his good look, but he is acting like an idiot, now.