[Fall 2018] Nanoha the MOVIE 4th Detonation

[Archon_Wing]

Pretty good movie, though Nanoha one shotting Yuri with the new hax and almost being able to take on the main villain on her own was a bit much. Discount Spaghetti was whatever too; at first I thought he'd have a motivation but he went psycho so fast that it wasn't meant to be. It also suffers from the problem that this series cannot get away from-- it insists on giving everyone something to do so it just bounces all over the place. It's a series more meant to be in episodes as every movie has been a clusterfuck to a certain degree.

It's nice that they were able to create something pretty good that was original; at least for me it's been like more than a decade for them and StrikerS just never cut it.

The relationship between Iris and the sisters was made more clear in the film and was somewhat more interesting than usual. Of these I think Iris's actions were the most sad after being tossed around as such. Nanoha's random existential crisis kinda felt out of place and somewhat cliche because of the movie format especially because it was in a fight vs the nameless minion, but hey, Fate's around for her, k? The end ran many parallels between it and things that happened before, so it was a nice touch.

[4th Dimension]

Yeah, I wasn't a fan of Reflection for it's decision to go the route of physical weapons and HAXORZ to invalidate magic.

And while Detonation does have some neat bits of Nanoha fighting more physics tech based foes, it also hasn't really solved issues that would wreck the worldbuilding that I like.

Also, they weren't original. Pretty much most of the plot except maybe Iris was taken/inspired or JAMMED IN from VAROUS Nanoha bits that were never animated. We have characters (one of which now only shares name and looks with the original) from Gears of Destiny the video game. We have mecha designs + immunity to pure magic + gore from Force. We have cats bit from Materials mangas. Hell, even the last scene with the gravestone is nearly verbatum the end of GoD, so they did that to that person just so they could do that scene.

So, I can't say I liked it. And I DEFINITELY don't like the direction they have been pushing the series ever since Gears of Destiny. And that makes me REALLY pissed and REAAALY sad.

[Archon_Wing]

I meant original in the sense that the sense that it is not a remake like the first two movies despite the derivative elements. I don't care for anything post A's and the first 2 movies were nice but don't add much.

[4th Dimension]

At this point I don't WANT them to add stuff. I am DEFINITELY no fan of Movie 2nd PRECISELY because most of the changes there IMO were to the determent of the movie.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

Yeah, I wasn't a fan of Reflection for it's decision to go the route of physical weapons and HAXORZ to invalidate magic.

Uh, I think I saw Magic 1 and Magic 2. If they had been telling you that whatever Iris was using was Magic and what Nanoha was using was Tech these past ten years, you wouldn't know the difference. So basically hating on it is a bit like hating Velka-style because it focuses more on physical materialization (or a simulacra of such).

Besides, the seed that Physical Weapons are fully competitive was around since StrikerS - remember how they used to have mass weapons and how they were dangerous? If it was easy to defeat the best of them with magic, they can't be that dangerous.

We have characters (one of which now only shares name and looks with the original) from Gears of Destiny the video game. We have mecha designs + immunity to pure magic + gore from Force.

Hey, at least no weird anti-magic Eclipse fields that are kind of a virus. This is just "physics" that can be competitive.

And yes I do recognize those three from a guidebook I bought for Gears of Destiny (did not have a console), but I think this is their most promising rendition yet, so they are kind of taking the best elements.

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

At this point I don't WANT them to add stuff. I am DEFINITELY no fan of Movie 2nd PRECISELY because most of the changes there IMO were to the determent of the movie.

IIRC from a long time ago, every Nanoha movie is supposed to be a film made in MGLNverse. And I think the movies all play to that theme - flashier everything than the relatively bland reality (TV anime version, due to budget), and oh how they neatly cut out Graham's little role in the A's movie!

[4th Dimension]

Magic vs. Tech: Eh no, this is explicitly supposed to be tech. And yes, StrikerS did say that people used mass based weapons in the past, but the key thing is that pure magic WON that contest. They wouldn't be using pure magic if pure mass was competititve on it's own. Normal weapons could only be competitive in StrikerS due to AMF reducing the effectiveness of Magic, but even AMF was a magic thing and could be countered by overwhelming it or via skill.

They tried to do a similar thing, except made a much bigger mess. Instead of AMF which makes some sort of sense, we now have tech somehow outright hacking magic, by a society that had a really brief meeting with it, and as a result of that haxzorz magic is suddenly rendered nearly useless in combat. There is no countermeasures for it, no way to overwhelm it. With a swing of the hack writer's wand decade of lore is rendered irrelevant just so the writer could have another trope characteristic of hacks, the invulnerable antagonist.

And this switch from magic to physical introduces MUUUCH more problems than it solves. Before whenever something that would be impossible in physics would happen, we could say MAGIC. But now there is no such recourse. There is no way to explain the gigantic mechs that violate cube square law. There is no way to explain flying on tinsy flame bits forever. No way to explain most of the nonsense the opposition does. Sure, they are supposed to be able to do things because of NANOMACHINES SON, but instead of using that to create advantages and limitations to what they can do, the writer simply treats nanomachines as mana, variant cores as Linker Cores and Formula as magic. Which makes no conceivable sense. So in effect he has instead of MAGIC made "science" indistinguishable from magic just so his new toys could beat up his old toys via writter fiat. "Nuh nu nuh, your Buster doesn't work on me because I say so".

And those aren't the only problems with this new nonsense. The show has allways shied from protagonists actually killing people, which I am fine with. But it has also contained world ending doom lasers and like. BUT, since we were using magic we could get away with saying that spell can be programmed to not use lethal force on living things to explain why the target of an attack that wipes out buildings arround the target just faints. Now that explanation is gone, and I honestly thought Nanoha and Fate just murdered that dude at the end. Except the writter doesn't want that so he survives through nonsense deus ex machina when he should be VAPOR.

Basically it's actively ruining what made the universe make sense in favor of new ugly designs and writing shortcuts for hack writers.

So basically hating on it is a bit like hating Velka-style because it focuses more on physical materialization (or a simulacra of such).

Velka? What is this, is it 2000s so we don't know that it's Belka?
And no, this isn't anything like that. Belkans still used magic, which means we can still use the same justifications for what they do. How do they materialize explosive balls out of nowhere? MAGIC! Why can her sword infinito extend? MAGIC! Why is she using a cricket mallet?!? MAGIC! etc. etc. etc. Additionally they never do the hack thing and just show that Belkan shit is better and that you can't do ANYTHING to them with Mid style and require protagonists to switch to Belkan. That kind of a turd writing doesn't happen in A's because back then things still made sense. Belkans had their advantages and disadvantages and a slight tech lead. But there was no "nuh nuh nuh, nothing you do can touch me because I said so".

I bought for Gears of Destiny (did not have a console), but I think this is their most promising rendition yet, so they are kind of taking the best elements.

Best elements?!?

This shit is a MASSIVE disservice to GoD. Hell characters are barely themselves. Kryie is basically character assassinated in favor of making Iris so we could blame all bad on her... and then even she had a trap dor bad guy behind her so she too can escape any blame. Compare that to GoD Kyrie who herself made a plan that she knew wouldn't please her dad yet she still did it anyway because she thought her cause justified it. Kyrie who wasn't a crying damsel in distress who gets emotional whenever something she doesn't expect happens. And Kyrie who in the end works her butt off to make the proper resolution happen raher than stand idly by emoting.
Hell even "Materials" aren't themselves, since their background that made some sense (most of the nonsense was from BoA, which was pure nonsense to begin with, so you work with what you have) we have this whole nonsense with Yuri being custodian or something and the ridiculous cats angle.
Etc, etc etc.


Movie being propaganda: Honestly that theory never made complete sense to me, at least not in the prime anime verse. Maybe in some parallel one. And this movie can HARDLY be called propaganda or like given how deus ex machina nerfed the rank and file Sailing Force mages were even against enemy mooks and while using physical weapons. But I guess it makes total sense for nanomachines being able to help just BOUNCE actual coherent laser and plasma shots.

[AP24]

Just watched Reflection and Detonation in one go. Good thing I held off on watching Reflection until Detonation is out. Waiting one year would have been unbearable for me.

I wonder if they are going to keep the Formula system for the next movie if there will be one.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

Magic vs. Tech: Eh no, this is explicitly supposed to be tech.

I heard, but as you put it:

in effect he has instead of MAGIC made "science" indistinguishable from magic

That's what I meant when I say Magic 1 vs Magic 2. BTW, Inherent Skills and Eclipse look a lot like Magic too. This is just the latest Not-Magic.

And yes, StrikerS did say that people used mass based weapons in the past, but the key thing is that pure magic WON that contest.

It could be that magic won by making hybrid Tech-Magic fighters a.k.a Force and here. Further, AMFs notwithstanding the Not-Magic Inherent Skills were reasonably competitive and they were bashed together by one guy. A specialist design from a civilization who had to dig hard into the Tech route because they never bumped into Magic can be better.

Further, I don't believe in thinking if it is "Tech" all the Realism Shackles are applied while Magic gets carte blanche. Instead, if you show me you can do X with Method 1, I'll be quite OK with you saying X can be done with Method 2 as well. If you don't show me something, all the gaps are interpolated with regular physics considerations. Show me something soft and fluffy, and you'll have to work very hard to convince me it is actually tough.

haxzorz magic is suddenly rendered nearly useless in combat.

They also didn't have to work very hard to fit the Formula stuff into their system. So basically both sides can interact with each other.

Besides, I've rewatched the film to assess "haxzorz" magnitudes, and it basically had the bind countermeasure and shielding ratings I would expect a mage on the equivalent part of the capability ladder to have. What's so unfair about it? The only other rulings they can make is 1) Kyrie can break binds simply overstressing them or 2) Kyrie's doomed once they get her in a magibind.

create advantages and limitations to what they can do,

I saw advantages and limitations. For example, Formula apparently cannot create much from thin air - no equivalent to a mana to fermion conversion (I assume the little bit is from prestored material). It must use existing fermions, in fact existing atoms (since it can't just use air). Its much less flexible but it does have that war-winner on the battlefield - Speed and Power.

Mid style and require protagonists to switch to Belkan

Uh, the cartridge system installation was quite a switch, too. Further having burnt that option in A's they simply can't justify another last minute buff without it looking arbitrary. Since magic isn't suddenly going to get faster to match Formula, there's no choice but to put a little formula into the mage.

Velka? What is this, is it 2000s so we don't know that it's Belka?

Well, two problems. For one thing, I watch Nanoha in Japanese, so I don't care as much about Belka/Velka, Raging Heart/Raising heart or any of that kind of stuff as some others. For another, the 2000s was exactly when I was really into Nanoha, and I quit sometime in Vivid and Force and wasn't really tracking until Vivid Strike. So I confess, I also didn't realize there were two PSP video games (as it turns out, I was tracking BoA) swimming out there. My bad there.

Personally I don't think the movie Kyrie was that bad, but maybe the GoD one was indeed better.

nerfed the rank and file Sailing Force mages were even against enemy mooks and while using physical weapons.

I think this is inevitable. Anything that is a challenge to the Aces is inevitably too much for the mooks to deal with.

[FlareKnight]

As a whole I enjoyed the movies. I was wondering how many more layers of manipulation were in effect though. Kyrie was manipulated by Iris who was in turn manipulated by the chairman. And I was half waiting for someone to be pulling his strings, but they were running out of movie so I gave up on that .

If nothing else I felt for the manipulated in these circumstances. Both Kyrie and Iris made decisions they knew were wrong even if they were manipulated in that direction. If nothing else the flashback history for Iris and Yuri did work as intended. Iris was pretty effectively evil for much of the story, but still managed to make her likable in terms of her past. And while she was goaded on nicely by that jerk, Yuri herself didn't do a great job handling her. On top of that she left her in that messed up state before she was sent off with the book. Extremely unfortunate, but not surprising there was so much venom from Iris that didn't want to hear a word Yuri had to say in the present.

It was a challenge to juggle the cast in this movie. When you have to handle so many new characters it is tough to give too many of the original cast time to shine. In reality if you stretched out this plot a bit more in a show then it's possible to balance it better. But these were pretty lengthy films so maybe it just is what it is. You can focus on your new cast or your old cast, but not really both at the same time. At least Fate and Nanoha especially had their moments across 2 movies.

In terms of the powers at work in this movie, I enjoyed them. I don't think this messed up the universe or the world building. It is just additional layers. And I thought the action was excellent. They certainly put the movie budget to work here. And it was nice in a lot of ways to see the various characters get their big action scenes. Again this one was less Fate and Hayate, but overall they did good work. And there was a lot to handle with the multiple Yuri fights, the Iris conflict with Kyrie while not long was pretty well handled.

A minor point on the rank and file mages...they were always useless. Anyone remember the first season of Nanoha where they got smoked by a dying Precia? The rank and file only exist to make the villains look awesome for smoking them. Heck, Chrono ends up in that position more often than not. These past few movies have done him a service in letting him get some things done without being easily taken down.

The only regret I have is that the flashback portions on that planet were so good that I'd like to have gotten even more. Just make a small slice of life story about them all working to restore life back to that planet. Might be pretty enjoyable

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

At least Fate and Nanoha especially had their moments across 2 movies.

Nanoha, sure. Fate, not so much. She barely did anything in Reflection and literally didn't do shit in Detonation.

When you have to handle so many new characters it is tough to give too many of the original cast time to shine.

Yes, but I think most fans would prefer to keep the focus on the original characters if they've got a choice. I don't think this habit of adding more and more characters is a good idea. If anything, I think it will end up killing the franchise as the focus gets thinner and thinner due to the ever expanding cast.

[4th Dimension]

Fate didn't do anything in Reflection?!? She practically had as many scenes as Nanoha and her showdown with Levi was pretty much given just as much attention as Nanoha's with Stern. If anyone was shafted with was the Yagami family.

Well they didn't really add that many characters in these. Bigger problem is that the cast of the good guys is now composed of 3 supposed heroes + about 7-8 supporting characters. Though things aren't helped with the Iris getting all that silly story that ate more time. And she is the bloody movie original character.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Nanoha, sure. Fate, not so much. She barely did anything in Reflection and literally didn't do shit in Detonation.[/Spoiler]

Not as if that's all that new. When the big fight in A's was going on Fate was trapped in a dream land for most of it. Nanaoha took almost that entire fight. She's just not the main character. Which makes sense whenever we look up and see the title of the franchise . Fate is always sidelined to some degree minus the one where she was the antagonist for much of it. Not all that different here. She got to fight Kyrie and Levi in Reflection. Honestly can say she had as much if not more to do there than Nanoha herself. Not so much in Detonation, but that's how it goes sometimes.

Yes, but I think most fans would prefer to keep the focus on the original characters if they've got a choice. I don't think this habit of adding more and more characters is a good idea. If anything, I think it will end up killing the franchise as the focus gets thinner and thinner due to the ever expanding cast.

I think we're a bit late about worrying about the franchise being killed. At least on the anime side. The last main story that pushed the main cast was StrikerS in 2007. And even that is debatable since a lot of focus did go to new characters. A's would probably be the safest pick and that's 2005. We're looking at a franchise that created a big setting and then moved on from the main cast over 10 years ago. Past that we've had spinoffs and movies re-telling stories we already saw. What franchise are we trying to keep alive and what does that entail? Stories that focus primarily on Nanoha and Fate? There are barely any of those even before these movies kicked off.

In the end what works or not comes down to preference. I like focus on Nanoha and Fate. They are the ones that got this franchise started. There's no doubt the more you expand things outward and add new faces the tougher the juggling act becomes. You either need to simplify it down to the main cast and new antagonists or let the main cast step back a bit to flesh out more new faces.

All I know is that I mostly enjoyed these movies. There are other angles that could have been used to approach them and ways to simplify things down that allowed more focus on Nanoha and Fate (and Hayate if you want to make it a focus on the trio). But they went out there and made a solid pair of movies that fleshed out the characters it did chose to focus on. I don't think it hurts anything to make good and entertaining movies. So long as that happens they can switch gears to make a smaller cast in the next one that focuses more on characters people want to see.

[4th Dimension]

I don't think Fate has been sidelined much in any of the animes. In fact the problem is more that they use her for rather predictable ways. Basically she is an angst dispenser. Whenever MT feels like he needs an emotional moment he just prodds Fate's mommy issues.

A's during finale: Mommy issues
StrikerS finale: Dadd- nah, again mommy issues
Gears of Destiny: She literally meets her mom AGAIN

if anything in these movies they didn't pull that overworked tro-

wait...

yeah they did that again in Reflection.

By making it about her vocally acknowledging Lindy as a mom. So again mommy issues.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

I don't think Fate has been sidelined much in any of the animes.

Nanoha's main appeal are the big magic battles, and in that context Fate always gets sidelined. Detonation was the worst in that respect as she didn't get a single fight scene (at least in Reflection she got some small fights).

[Archon_Wing]

That's been a problem with the franchise since A's.

I can imagine the cast all lining up, all asking Tsuzuki "Do I get to do something?" Is like a pie that has like 30 slices. I'm not even exaggerating.

As for the complains about quality of screentime and who gets what, I'd rather not go into that, since I mean the forum got starlight breaker'd to oblivion. Lay it to rest.

[4th Dimension]

Big magical battles: Eh, they aren't the main appeal. They weren't that detailed back in the original anime. If there was things that were interesting about them is Nanoha figuring out asymetric solutions to her present problems, which these utterly lack (well there is that cable bit, which shouldn't have worked) since it's all accelerator nonsense and flashing lights.

And on top of it all, I don't think she even SLBs anything in these, because we have the boring stupid for me world ruining physical nonsense.

[Akiyoshi]

Just saw DETONATION. I have my fair share of issues with the movie but overall enjoyed it more than REFLECTION (guess it has to do with it having a lot less jobbing) and in the end my main beef is something I'm sadly already too used to which is the Wolkenritter being treated like appliances but that's commonplace by now so I shouldn't complain, I guess. The issues 4th Dimension expresses about Formula Eltria are almost the exact ones I had about the Eclipse years ago.

I have a couple questions that the movie didn't clarify or maybe the subs I watched failed to translate well. Are Nanoha's arm and eye replaced by cyborg replicas or where fully restored somehow (reminds me of what happened to Signum in Nanya's fic, how time flies)? What happened to the Tome of the Night Sky at the end? Hayate made a big deal of getting it back in Reflection but we never found out if she did in Detonation or if it was taken to Eltria with Yuri. And finally, subs more or less implied Yuri wasn't originally tied to the Tome of the Night Sky and just got added later which means the origin of the book and the knights (at least in the movie timeline) still remains a mystery.

The fights didn't seemed very Nanoha-like but if we forget that for a moment there were a bunch of cool ones. I think Yuri and the materials seemed a lot weaker in the movies than in the PSP games. Lastly, the reveal of the materials true origin came out of nowhere and sort of broke the immersion for me. Other than that I enjoyed the Nanoha introspection.

As for Formula Eltria in the future seems Nanoha is the only special snowflake for the time being.

[4th Dimension]

What subs did you use? I hope the Ron ones since the original ones are an attrocity.

As for Nanoha and her injuries, it's explained somewhere (maybe in the dictionary) that they fully restored/regenerated her limbs and like using a combination of NANOMACHINES SON! and Yuri's life manipulation shenanigans. So no cool prosthetics for Nanoha.

Presumably BoNS is back with Hayate or what remains of it given that Iris was captured and held by TSAB for a while and she was the one who had it I think.

Well, Materials were really slightly weaker than the originals in games. So I'd say the "Materials" were slightly buffed here. But yeah of course they were weaker since they aren't the BIG BAD and didn't get Accelerator which is apparently the most important thing now.

I don't think even Nanoha will be able to continue using Formula, unless they also got the tech about NANOMACHINES SON! from Eltorians.

[Kazu-kun]

I hope they won't continue this timeline. It's atrocious and overall pretty boring. They should really just start over again but this time keep the focus to the original main characters. Or better yet, just let the franchise rest in peace.