[Manga] Chapter 246 Discussion

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by The Small One

Why Renji and not Rukia?

Well, Renji had the goal to surpass Byakuya and was training day and night to achieve this goal, while Rukia wasn't even seated, and also didn't want to change this fact. Besides, while Renji was training, she was running around without her powers in a useless Gigai for about half a year.

And it was always strongly implied, that she was the Kidou-type and not the Swordfight-type of Shinigami. So either she changes her type, or she won't be able to reach Bankai.

Even though Renji was training day and night, it still didn't help him achieve bankai sooner - and him achieving bankai at the end was actually all because of the need to help Rukia not because of the goal to become as strong as Byakuya. And, if you compare that long period of achieving bankai (maybe ten or more years) to half a year, it doesn't make a lot of difference.

Also, for Rukia, maybe all she needed was some kind of resolution to become stronger, which is not something she had before. Maybe that is the reason, which prevented her to become stronger. Right now, she has all the resolution she needs, resolution related to her family, her friends, her society. So, if it is a problem related to that, it should already be solved.

Lastly, isn't Aizen also Kidou type and a bankai user at the same time? Also, I don't remember that kidou type cannot achieve bankai part, I would be glad if you can provide a chapter number as a reference.

Originally Posted by hdx514

or that ANYONE would be able to beat a vastorode arrancar with SHIKAI.

I thought Zaraki (who can be considered as one of the strongest captains and to be around a vastrode arrancar level) lost to only "shikai".

[Ishun]

#246 is out and!

Spoiler for #246:

It seems Ichigo & Co are going to make new friends. And of course, the best thing could happen, Rukia in next chapter! D:

EDIT: Ah, that's because I somehow got blind and didn't see there was already a a thread for #246. My bad, mods can delete this post if they feel like. >_>

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Ishun

#246 is out and!

Spoiler for #246:

It seems Ichigo & Co are going to make new friends. And of course, the best thing could happen, Rukia in next chapter! D:

You are in the current chapter thread, there is no need for a spoiler tag.

[kagato3]

Originally Posted by hdx514

the very earliest shinigami ichigo wasted fishbone easy, yet after years of training and experience, she wasn't able to do the same in one strike, and last time i checked fishbone wasn't sand based - poor ATK. she got easily distracted/cried at mere sight of gillian saying BS like: only royal guards can handle it - poor EXP (menos grande were in textbooks, no wonder she's second rate student), in top physical condition, she wasn't able to dodge the sneak attack of a weak hollow - poor SPD. she got a direct hit from the weak hollow and nearly died - poor DEF.
.

Compairing Ichigo to anyone is pointless as his power level has always been near off the scale and durring that first second as you call it he was radiating power like crazy, something he did not do again till he fought Kenpatchi. Rukia was strong enuff to cut halfway through fishbone's arm to free Ichigo's sister in 1 strike and she had won the fight untill Ichigo butted in and started yelling at her drawing her attention away from the fight. She did not "cry" at the sight of a menos, she was shocked to see one as they almost never leave HM and she then said that fighting them was under the juristion of the royal guards. Given that they rarely leave HM and combat with them is under a completely diffrent group, how is only hearing about them in text books make her a second rate student?
Which sneak atack are you refering to the one the knocked her down and did no damage to her while she was trying to get Ichigo to leave her alone and let her fight or the one she jumped in front of to save Ichigo?

Originally Posted by hdx514

the academy teaches students how to FIGHT and do soul burial, class ranking directly reflects power.

No, it is based on how well they did on the entrance tests Renji was at the low end of those that made it in and Rukia was just on the other side of the cut off line.

Originally Posted by hdx514

top students who later became VCs include renji, momo, kira and shuhei.

We do not know if Shuhei was in the top class of his grade. Only that he was the first to be recruted for the divisions as a seated officer with out takeing the entrance tests. Note this is also what happend to Rukia she was placed in Div 13 with out graduating while Renji was still in the top class

Originally Posted by hdx514

specifically, renji, momo and kira were top of the 1st division. i don't know about american universities, but in top british universities a top ranking first class student is day while a top ranking 2nd class student is night.

Given the top class seemed to have around 18 students in it, it seems to be set up more like a high school, meaning that there are likely to be many classes, so the diffrence between the top class and the second highest class is not as great as you make it out to be. Sure they were the first to do things and therefore got more practice, biut it did not mean that if you were not in the top class you were useless. Infact we only saw inside the school twice the first time 2 months in to training when Renji's class went to practice soul barials and when Rukia left in her final year before Renji had taken his test to join the divisions. There is no evidence that they were trained any better then any of the other classes only that they were able to get a head start because for the most part they know the basics all ready.

Originally Posted by hdx514

kira fought evenly with VC matsumoto, at least from what we've seen. matsumoto was only starting to train for bankai.
shuhei lost to yumichika. yumichika was only starting to train for bankai.

Um not realy if i remember Kira and Matsumoto's talk after Azein left Kira was broken up because he had gone all out on her and trying to kill her, and she replyed that it was ok because she hadn't been.


As to your bet as to if Rukia has or will have one soon if you read back I never claimed she did or would although I don't see it out of the realm of possablity I have only been trying to correct what appers to be incorrect information you have been baseing this debate on.

[Nightengale]

Originally Posted by kagato3

Note this is also what happend to Rukia she was placed in Div 13 with out graduating while Renji was still in the top class

It's because Byakuya pulled strings.

[Biswa]

Uh oh, a lot arguing going on before anything has even happened. Hell, whatever happened to the rest of the chapter? Everyone's talking about Rukia >_<. I personally think the new friend hollows are the best thing to happen since Kon.

Also im not even going to argue that much about this Rukia thing. People are arguing and stating stuff that hasn't even been remotely stated in the manga. But I'm gonna definitely be AGAINST Rukia getting bankai though, because the show really wouldn't be interesting and inspiring when we find out what Ichigo did in Soul Society was weak sauce. I prefer to look back at Soul Society and Ichigo's and thinkg -- "Bad ass!" Ichigo's the main character and he is the only one who needs to be able to do it. I basically would like the power gap between Ichigo and everyone else.

If Rukia is going to be able to do bankai, Ichigo better darn be able to crush that bankai with his mind with his mask on. That's what i mean.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by The Small One

You can't compare Aizen with Rukia, since he is a captain and should have higher stats and especailly limits from the start. If the author doesn't suddenly decide to change the background story to somethig mysterious, Rukia clearly isn't captain material.

I can still not compare Renji or Ikkaku with Aizen, or previous Aizen, even though they also achieved bankai. And, don't forget that before SS arc, neither Renji nor Ikkaku were close to captain material.

I merely mentioned that part to show that being sword-type or kidou-type does not prevent a person from achieving bankai. And, another thing is, achieving bankai does not automatically make someone superior or as good as compared to other bankai users.

I can understand the objections against Rukia achieving bankai, but I can also understand arguments supporting the other way. That's why I believe it is possible for her to achieve bankai, and I won't find it illogical.

Originally Posted by kagato3

No, it is based on how well they did on the entrance tests Renji was at the low end of those that made it in and Rukia was just on the other side of the cut off line.

I am not sure about the second part, but the first part says enough for me. I don't think the entrance exam can perfectly decide on how well a person can achieve 40-50 years later, including whether the person has ability to achieve bankai or not. Cause it is clear, it doesn't work, as the majority of the first class graduates fail to achieve bankai. If Kira entered with scores higher than Renji, how would someone explain his failure to achieve bankai, when Renji has already achieved it?

[Zu Ra]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

I merely mentioned that part to show that being sword-type or kidou-type does not prevent a person from achieving bankai. And, another thing is, achieving bankai does not automatically make someone superior or as good as compared to other bankai users.

Bankai is not the highest determinant of ones power. True I second that fact . We wouldnt have seen Tosen and Komura get literally pawned by a man who didnt even know the name of his zanapkuto , Zaraki .With Tosen and Komamura having Kido and Zanzutsu based Zanapkuto respectively

There can be also an strong argument that it was Zaraki Kenpachi , and we all know Kenpachi is a title . Tosen and Komamura maybe green horns but they are not small fry either . They maybe weaker than Zaraki but not all that much .

Unlike in the real world, in Bleach Universe opponents strength relies more on will of heart , tenacity and never say give up attitude

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by i_shinigami

Unlike in the real world, in Bleach Universe opponents strength relies more on will of heart , tenacity and never say give up attitude

Or the flow of the story as if it is a multi-level game.

[hdx514]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

I thought Zaraki (who can be considered as one of the strongest captains and to be around a vastrode arrancar level) lost to only "shikai".

what are you talking about? zaraki would possibly be vastorode level IF he's like any other normal captains, i.e. know bankai. he doesn't.
kenpachi = shikai ichigo+ a little extra help < bankai ichigo < unreleased grimmjow < released grimmjow

and we don't even know if grimmjow's an vastorode as it is. if he is a vastorode, how the hell would aizen be able to crush the most powerful class of menos, arrancarized, with reiatsu alone?! why'd he even need them?

do you even know what it implies if zaraki is around vastorode level? ichigo won't need the stupid mask, because he's already 5+ times stronger than a vastorode. [are you as crazy as i_shigami who thinks that d-roy could be a vastorode or are you trying to find excuses for him?

Compairing Ichigo to anyone is pointless as his power level has always been near off the scale and durring that first second as you call it he was radiating power like crazy, something he did not do again till he fought Kenpatchi

do you even see what people are saying?
i_shinigami: rukia should get bankai because ichigo did, claiming rukia could have possibly beaten a vastorode class d-roy easily with shikai
Sazelyt: claiming constant-kai kenpachi is vastorode level, comparing aizen to rukia
it's this total lack of common sense which leads people to imagine ridiculous things. and they haven't got the least bit of courage to place their bet on rukia

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by hdx514

what are you talking about? zaraki would possibly be vastorode level IF he's like any other normal captains, i.e. know bankai. he doesn't.
kenpachi = shikai ichigo+ a little extra help < bankai ichigo < unreleased grimmjow < released grimmjow

and we don't even know if grimmjow's an vastorode as it is. if he is a vastorode, how the hell would aizen be able to crush the most powerful class of menos, arrancarized, with reiatsu alone?! why'd he even need them?

do you even know what it implies if zaraki is around vastorode level? ichigo won't need the stupid mask, because he's already 5+ times stronger than a vastorode. [are you as crazy as i_shigami who thinks that d-roy could be a vastorode or are you trying to find excuses for him?

You need to accept Zaraki as he is. Even in his current condition, he is one of the strongest captains. And, at his level, he lost to a "shikai". I don't know why you want to find excuses for that (yes you are the one doing that, not me).

Also, do you even know what Zaraki, maybe a top-3 strength level captain, being weaker than vastrode implies? It doesn't require 10 vastrodes to crush SS. Also, when did Ichigo become 5 times stronger than Zaraki? I guess you assume Zaraki losing to Ichigo means he was stronger than Zaraki at all times, but we both know that "may not be" the case. My example just aims to show you, your statement is not correct. The fights do not have to take place as you wish and losing to a shikai is quite possible as it has already taken place.

Originally Posted by hdx514

do you even see what people are saying?
i_shinigami: rukia should get bankai because ichigo did, claiming rukia could have possibly beaten a vastorode class d-roy easily with shikai
Sazelyt: claiming constant-kai kenpachi is vastorode level, comparing aizen to rukia
it's this total lack of common sense which leads people to imagine ridiculous things. and they haven't got the least bit of courage to place their bet on rukia

I think everyone is capable of seeing and reading what everyone is saying. You know if a vastrode would be much stronger than a captain, Hitsugaya wouldn't have used the magical number 10 for them (which incidentally equals to the number of captains). Instead he would have used 9. Can you see that simple but important difference? I "bet" you can't.

[Zu Ra]

Firstly we are not on Gia Online so grow up Dude did it take you so long to come up with this argument I mean you stay on Invisible mode most of the times lurking here . and thats the best argument you can come up with . Really you are just going on and on about the same thing with no fresh or new insights to support your argument . And am really sorry I hurt your feelings , henceforth I keep Ichigo Figurine in an altar and bow everytime I watch Bleach . - lol -

But one good thing came out this whole thing you learnt to use color in your font - Yipee- If we keeping on arguing like this one day my dream will turn into reality you will Learn to Capitalize


And why you dont you adress or even mention Ichigo interfering in the Fishbone fiasco ?? That is still a mystery .


Also dont you know in all shonen manga "The bad guys are just shown ridiculously Powerful earlier and Pawned later"
ALWAYS

P.S. Next time you retort come up with something amusing and intresting I really dont find using crazy and ass all that offensive .And genrally people start using cuss words when they start losing an argument

[Fudozukushi]

Originally Posted by hdx514

kenpachi = shikai ichigo+ a little extra help < bankai ichigo < unreleased grimmjow < released grimmjow

Gee and

Bankai Tōsen<Kenpachi

Unreleased Grimmjow< Sealed State Tōsen

Comparing characters on how they would fight against someone else based on past fights is pointless

[hdx514]

@Sazelyt

evidence: ichigo equaled kenpachi with more or less shikai. bankai gives at least 5+ times power boost.
now where's the EVIDENCE that zaraki is top 3 strength level captain? (i.e. clear evidence of him being tronger than 6-7 of the remaining captains)

it's crystal clear from the manga that bankai ichigo > ichigo ~ kenpachi
where's your countering "may not be" evidence? in the anime fillers where he beat ichinose?
your examples so called showed absolutely nothing. the only captain in history to not even know his own zanpakuto's name or the oldest captain with the most powerful zanpakutou have nothing in common with rukia. whatever their shikai can achieve is no evidence for an ant like rukia. and just because A can defeat B with shikai, doesn't mean A is top 3 in any rank or B is vastorode arrancar level. what are you thinking? tell me, do you seriously think i'm wrong and rukia could easily beat a vastorode arrancar with shikai?

fact: significant forces in S.S. = 10 captains + VCs + demonarts leader(s) + covert ops (leaders), how can you forget? last time i checked that's a lot more than 10.
and you know hitsu ain't counting the royal guards in? you know the royal guards aren't even VC level?
hitsu said the average vastorode > the average captain before becoming arrancar, which offers another power boost, in what way does that NOT make an average arrancarized vastorode much stronger than an average non-vaizard captain, please tell me.

@i_shinigami
while people have different interpretations for the fishbone d fight, no one besides you on AS or indeed any other bleach forum would doubt the fact that d-roy is not even close to vastorode level. cut your irrelevant personal stuff, if you want then bring it to the PMs, you'll get a proper "retort" in english deutsch 日本語&漢語, 小jb樣~

@Fudozukushi
tousen clearly attacked grimm by surprise mate. he was grimm's superior, it wasn't a battle situation, the arm cutting was totally unexpected. alright, maybe these are excuses, but what's not an excuse is grimmjow's response right after that: even now without an arm, he wanted to kill tousen on the spot, but once the real powerful aizen said i won't forgive if you attack, he backed away.

if non-vaizard tousen had the real ATK power to cut grimmjow's arm which couldn't even be cut by ichigo's black月牙天冲, then he would have killed kenpachi back then. ichigo's much weaker attacks were able to ko kenpachi, remember?

and basing things on past fights would be pretty pointless for the protagonist of the shounen series, because they're generally the only ones blessed with super speed lv up. oh also in this case tousen also has a reason to lv up - vaizard powers, but kenpachi? none we can see.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by hdx514

@Sazelyt
tell me, do you seriously think i'm wrong and rukia could easily beat a vastorode arrancar with shikai?

If I remember correctly, your message was mentioning "anyone with shikai" vs. "anyone at vastrode level". Rukia is only a part of that "anyone" group, and does not tell you about everyone, as Ichigo-Zaraki example is quite clear for me.

And for Zaraki's strength (when he was still keeping the eye pathch), I think his fight against Tousen and his old friend say enough. Maybe, at that last moment, Ichigo in his fight against Zaraki, became very close to bankai strength.

Originally Posted by hdx514

fact: significant forces in S.S. = 10 captains + VCs + demonarts leader(s) + covert ops (leaders), how can you forget? last time i checked that's a lot more than 10.
and you know hitsu ain't counting the royal guards in? you know the royal guards aren't even VC level?
hitsu said the average vastorode > the average captain before becoming arrancar, which offers another power boost, in what way does that NOT make an average arrancarized vastorode much stronger than an average non-vaizard captain, please tell me.

Since when VCs or others started to have a major impact on the strength battle of the captains? As we have seen those many times, they are not a match. You must have known clearly if you put all the insects together in a division, they still won't constitute a single problem for a captain. Yes, they might delay him, but that's all.

That 10 number equals to number of captains - there is no mention of royal guards , no mention of other insects (otherwise he would say 11-12-13). Hitsugaya was comparing a vastrode to a captain. So, it is pretty clear to me, that comparison mainly assumes the strength comparison between them. And it only shows for me, a vastrode is not a lot stronger than a captain, they might be stronger than an average captain but not enough to destroy the soul society if they would come in a group of 9. (and hitsugaya was using vastrode as arrankar vastrode). Also, I checked, he says more than 10 vastrodes, so it is not even just 10.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by The Small One

I think it does.
IMHO an average Shinigami has one area he excels in. Those who have more than one can be considered "gifted". And to achieve Bankai, you have to excel in the Swordfight-Area. Bankai is something pretty rare. Even Shikai is something, not every Shinigami can reach, but Bankai is even more difficult only reachable by those with very high stats for Swordfighting.
And Rukia is just an average Shinigami, who clearly has strenghts for Kidou, not Swordfight.

Again, that is an opinion. But, I still don't get the reason behind the idea of exceling in the sword-fight to achieve bankai. I have never seen/read/heard any requirement on that. To achieve bankai, the shinigami has to reach a certain level and do whatever his/her Zanpaktou requests him/her to do, and that can be anything, related to the shinigami's abilities or the ability the bankai is supposed to give, and not limited to sword-fighting.

I would find it highly illogical. Rukia was shown to be weak from the very start of the series, with her only strong point beeing Kidou.
If you think it's okay, well okay, but I definately wouldn't like her to suddenly get this powerful.

At the beginning she was losing her powers. The recent Rukia (Rukia from one month earlier) we have seen, was the real Rukia. And even maybe then she wasn't fully recovered.

[kagato3]

I think I'm going to have to go with Sazelyt on the whole needing to exceling in sword-fighting to achieve bankai. From what we saw of his fight with Ishida, I would not say Mayuri exceled at sword combat. The only requirements ever stated was that you could matrilze the presonality of it and then force it to your will, combat with it is likely but not required and if it is against a Kidou based soulslayer wouldn't being stronger in Kidou be more important then swordfighting if you do have to face off with it?

[Rurik]

Ill third that Opinion, anyway the only thing said about Rukia (if I did not missed something) is that she was the top of her Class in Kidou…this however does not means she is lacking In other departments.

For all we Know She can Have as well as She could not Have Bankai, as out of the Blue Ikakau had Bankai, god knows for what amount of time. I guess plot is the one that decides at the end.

The only things is that If She has Bankai, then This must be something she has kept secret or never used, considering that Gotei 13 needed to cover for the empty Spaces for the lost Captains.

[hdx514]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

If I remember correctly, your message was mentioning "anyone with shikai" vs. "anyone at vastrode level". Rukia is only a part of that "anyone" group, and does not tell you about everyone, as Ichigo-Zaraki example is quite clear for me.

that's what i said, and the ichigo/zaraki example proves me wrong how? there's evidence of zaraki or ichigo defeating an arrancarized vastorode?

i'll take a step back, what i meant by ANYONE was really "MOST people who are far beyond rukia's level", i.e. possibility of exception in EXTREME cases, such as aizen or yamamoto, or the mysterious royal guard, but they have absolutely NOTHING to do with rukia. i used ANYONE because of the sheer ridiculousness of someone insisting d-roy's vastorode status.

Maybe, at that last moment, Ichigo in his fight against Zaraki, became very close to bankai strength.

hmm. reaching bankai level even without materialization, MAYBE right? what if we interchange ichigo and zaraki in your sentence and keep the MAYBE?

That 10 number equals to number of captains - there is no mention of royal guards , no mention of other insects (otherwise he would say 11-12-13). Hitsugaya was comparing a vastrode to a captain. So, it is pretty clear to me, that comparison mainly assumes the strength comparison between them. And it only shows for me, a vastrode is not a lot stronger than a captain, they might be stronger than an average captain but not enough to destroy the soul society if they would come in a group of 9. (and hitsugaya was using vastrode as arrankar vastrode). Also, I checked, he says more than 10 vastrodes, so it is not even just 10.

i wholeheartedly agree with you on the VC=insect part (which would include rukia and yeah i know, little yachiru), but not the rest. refer to the following post about the composition of S.S.
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=28848

S.S. as a whole consists of a chicken shit royal family who hides in some dimension (safeguarded by an unknown number of royal guards) who rules everyone below. demonarts people and the covert ops are ranked equally as the gotei 13. therefore, the strength of their leaders logically should be captain class. royal guards? say captains at least. you’ve got to be lying to yourself if you say the most important family in S.S. would be protected by VC level "insects". right, now, you asked: why did hitsu say 10+ and not 9 or 8? to which I answered: he could be considering all the gotei captains + leaders + royal guards, which would add up to a much larger number

i think your argument is along the lines of "hitsu compared the strength of vastorode to captain only, so he mustn’t have taken into account all these other people right?" well, i don't think there's any logic in that deduction. hitsu’s said “end of S.S.”, not end of the gotei 13. say if i compare german warplanes to the royal air force, then a little later concludes that XX number of german warplanes = end of BRITAIN, that means all the army, navy air force and everything else put together will be defeated by that number of XX planes alone. the fact that demonarts leaders weren't specifically mentioned would quite possibly mean that hitsu considers them on a par with the gotei captains

and let’s take a look at what hitsu actually said:
any vastorode > average captain
we know for a fact that arrancarizing gives power boost, so it’s only logical deduction that any arrancarized vastorode is much stronger than average captain. (not all, not the most powerful, but the average captain)

we also have some pretty good actual battle evidence to consider:
edorad, who is a (strong) gillian, 2 classes below vastorode, is slightly weaker than bankai ikkaku, who could have been captain candidate, so most probably slightly weaker than the weakest captain.

[Rowan]

You know, there's one thing I don't think anyone else has pointed out. The gatekeeper was made of sand, which was why Ichigo & crew's attacks wouldn't have really inflicted much damage. It was highly vulnerable to water, however.

Rukia's attack was keyed to this creature's specific weakness, giving her a huge advantage. Ichigo and the others probably could've defeated it, but it would've taken much longer. Given its nature, probably any Death God we've seen would have at least some difficulty with it. Consider other captain's bankais:

Byakuya: A million invisible blades? Yawn, I'm sand.

Zaraki: Enormous spirit force? No threat.

Etc, etc. The only captain that would be guaranteed to not have a hard time with it is Hitsugaya, another water/ice type.

Rukia's strength isn't unnatural or really out of synch with the rest of the story. This was just a situation perfectly suited to her abilities.

R.