[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[AuraTwilight]

There is no reason to believe anything about a bomb. Even if there is, your chances are higher just assaulting your aggressor with the help of everyone before they can go trip said bomb. Natsuhi even has a gun out.

Look, if someone displays homi-suicidal tendencies, has a gun pointed at you, and has twenty billion yen's worth in gold, why in the FUCK would you even consider doubting that they have a bomb when they've displayed vested interest and ability in killing EVERYONE?

Your objections rely on the assumption that Hideyoshi is absolutely retarded.

Can you please write more of what you're thinking? I'm pretty much left to try to read your mind, and I'm obviously not going to get what you're thinking correct.

It's really simple, dude.

Yasu is playing an innocent game with no intention of killing anyone.

Some other jackoff, with a motive to do so, takes advantage of the opportunity to kill people for real and get away with it, and shit gets real.

You keep getting stuck on this "But if the First Twilight is fake then why do people die later?!?!" thing and it's just a waste of everyone's time.

So you're suggesting that Hideyoshi is playing along, and only some of the people who are supposed to be fake-dead are real-dead, and then the rest are truly fake-dead and get up later to go kill Hideyoshi? What are their motivations for doing this?

Someone doesn't have to get up from being fake-dead to kill Hideyoshi; maybe Jessica's a super asshole, who knows?

You keep adding in all these completely unsubstantiated ideas and end up confusing yourself with information no one's even feeding you. This is exactly what Beatrice does to troll people.

Does this mean the murderer is playing "hide under the bed" when Kanon breaks open the chain door?
Do they actually kill Kanon later, then? And then finish the job?

Chain was already broken when Kanon got there. Kanon's like "Oh shit, they is dead."

So maybe here is how it played out:
Yasu reveals to the adults, and they all agree to fake death.
Kyrie actually kills everybody, and fakes death herself.
Hideyoshi lies about Shannon, and then plays along and goes to his room with Eva.
Kyrie shows up, murders Hideyoshi and Eva and hides under the bed.
Kanon breaks the chain, wonders "WTF?" smells the boiler, goes and checks it out, and gets attacked by... I guess Rudolf would have to fake death too. Kanon then dies for real.
The rest of the game plays out with Kyrie/Rudolf murdering everyone else. This actually gives a pretty good reason for why all the kids are alive at the end. That would be the best chance to convince Battler to join them.
Is this something like what you have in mind?

Why does Rudolf have to fake his death? Why can't it just be Kyrie?

You know what, fuck Kyrie, she doesn't even have the proper mindset or motive; why can't it be Super SS Nazi Gohda?

Though it doesn't ultimately matter as long as the culprit IS NOT Yasu.

Otherwise it's aight.

The culprit can't really be someone who is still supposedly alive, because they end up with alibis in a lot of situations. If you have someone in mind, lay it out, don't just say "someone" did it.

Yea, because alibis have never been FAKED before. "Consulting Kinzo" ring a bell?

All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!

Beatrice only says they have alibis. She does not say that these alibis are true. Kanon obviously faked his death regardless ANYWAY.

This is all so complicated. Do you think there is any chance the 8th game will just lay out all of the answers and explain everything?

Ryukishi said he will absolutely not be doing that.

[Crinias]

Originally Posted by Frisko

Regarding the first twilight of the first game, perhaps Hideyoshi lied in a failed attempt to trick the culprit into revealing him/herself. That is to say he expected the culprit to exclaim, "But I didn't kill Shannon!"

But then he would have to risk Kanon denying that she was dead. Kanon (who is Yasu) therefore must have known that Hideyoshi was willing to lie about Shannon being there, and Hideyoshi must have known that Kanon would have gone along with the lie, or Hideyoshi would have definitely suspected something.

[Moogleking]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Look, if someone displays homi-suicidal tendencies, has a gun pointed at you, and has twenty billion yen's worth in gold, why in the FUCK would you even consider doubting that they have a bomb when they've displayed vested interest and ability in killing EVERYONE?

Your objections rely on the assumption that Hideyoshi is absolutely retarded.

Not cornering your aggressor when you have a gun on your team and they don't appear to have anything on them seems pretty retarded to me.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

It's really simple, dude.

Yasu is playing an innocent game with no intention of killing anyone.

Some other jackoff, with a motive to do so, takes advantage of the opportunity to kill people for real and get away with it, and shit gets real.

You keep getting stuck on this "But if the First Twilight is fake then why do people die later?!?!" thing and it's just a waste of everyone's time.

Who? Why are you satisfied with just saying "Someone is a jerk and wants to kill everybody."? That's not a solution at all. If the true solution doesn't take into account people's motivations and have a logical chain of events, then this is a pretty terrible game.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Someone doesn't have to get up from being fake-dead to kill Hideyoshi; maybe Jessica's a super asshole, who knows?

Why did you throw this out totally unsubstantiated? How does this fit into the bigger picture of what is going on in this episode?

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

You keep adding in all these completely unsubstantiated ideas and end up confusing yourself with information no one's even feeding you. This is exactly what Beatrice does to troll people.

I'm looking at the clues we're given, the actions of the people, and trying to figure out the motives and truth. You're just telling me to accept "someone wants to kill people" as the answer.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Chain was already broken when Kanon got there. Kanon's like "Oh shit, they is dead."

Kanon broke the chain. If he didn't, there would not have been a huge discussion about how the chain was set. I suppose he could have seen the broken chain and then lied about it still being set.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Why does Rudolf have to fake his death? Why can't it just be Kyrie?

Because you need 2 people if one person is hiding under the bed. If you assume Kanon lied about the chain, then sure, it can just be one person.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

You know what, fuck Kyrie, she doesn't even have the proper mindset or motive; why can't it be Super SS Nazi Gohda?

Though it doesn't ultimately matter as long as the culprit IS NOT Yasu.

Otherwise it's aight.

Are you even trying to come up with a solution? You seem to be just throwing out random stuff without putting together a full story.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Moogleking

Who do you think is the murderer in that scenario? Why are they killing? What is Yasu doing? Why does Hideyoshi seclude himself from the safety of the group?

This is seriously getting tiresome.

Episode 8 is coming out in like 2 days. Do you have a theory on the whodunnit yet? Everyone else does. All of them vary. Quit demanding answers about who, who, who, from everyone else and think about it for yourself. No One is obligated to answer you about that. Period. mmkay?

[Moogleking]

Sorry, I thought it would be fun to try to logically reason out part of the game with other people on the discussion forum. Is this the wrong place to discuss the game?

Isn't the purpose of this forum to talk about the game, share ideas, ask questions, and try to figure stuff out?
Why are you even reading the forum if you don't want to see people post ideas and ask questions about things other people bring up?

[TehChron]

I honestly dont see why you all can't enjoy the clowning around for what it is.

I mean, really, clearly he's faking.

[AuraTwilight]

Not cornering your aggressor when you have a gun on your team and they don't appear to have anything on them seems pretty retarded to me.

You forgot my earlier scenario of Kanon having a pistol. Also, no one gets a gun until after the First Twilight. Ontop of that, Yasu apparently has EVERY OTHER GUN.

I would go so far as to say people are only given guns because she lets them, and if we go with the "fake murder game" idea, the guns she does give them might have only blanks to prevent someone thinking the game is real and flipping out.

Who? Why are you satisfied with just saying "Someone is a jerk and wants to kill everybody."? That's not a solution at all. If the true solution doesn't take into account people's motivations and have a logical chain of events, then this is a pretty terrible game.

Hey, have you been paying attention? I'm not giving you my True Solution Theory here, I'm playing devil's advocate and offering alternate, legitimate ideas to show you that your assumptions are wrong and are limiting the borders of your thinking. You're trapping yourself in a smaller box and burning bridges that Ryukishi wants to leave open to you.

I'm looking at the clues we're given, the actions of the people, and trying to figure out the motives and truth. You're just telling me to accept "someone wants to kill people" as the answer.

No, I'm not. I'm putting that aside right now while dealing with the howdunnit to show that you're making implicit assumptions that aren't actually supported by anything in the text.

Kanon broke the chain. If he didn't, there would not have been a huge discussion about how the chain was set. I suppose he could have seen the broken chain and then lied about it still being set.

He lied about it, obviously. Will confirmed that the chain was never set and/or already broken.

Because you need 2 people if one person is hiding under the bed. If you assume Kanon lied about the chain, then sure, it can just be one person.

Why do we need someone under the bed? You just made this random assumption and ran with it as if it was absolutely necessary for the murder to make sense.

Are you even trying to come up with a solution? You seem to be just throwing out random stuff without putting together a full story.

I said this at the VERY BEGINNING of our conversation. I am posing hypothetical options that are as equally legitimate, if not more so, than things you are proposing to show you the holes in your thinking. You're tripping yourself up, and on this road you'll be totally unable to solve Ryukishi's game.

[Crinias]

Well, since Episode 8 is coming out soon, I really need to get this off my chest before I withdraw from all umineko forums in order to avoid spoilers. Would someone mind clearing things up for me?

I currently have 2 doubts:
1) Is Ange's reality in 1998 the reality of Rokkenjima-Prime, or just a possibility?

2) Where the hell did Meta-Battler come from? I assume Yasu made a promise with Lambda so that she could be be a (temporal , fake) witch, as indicated in Lambda's Diary TIP - it explains how she became Meta-Beatrice. However, I have no idea where Meta-Battler came from. Is he the Battler from Episode 1, or the real Battler that died in Rokkenjima-Prime?

Thanks in advance!

[Keriaku]

Originally Posted by Judoh

This is seriously getting tiresome.

Episode 8 is coming out in like 2 days. Do you have a theory on the whodunnit yet? Everyone else does. All of them vary. Quit demanding answers about who, who, who, from everyone else and think about it for yourself. No One is obligated to answer you about that. Period. mmkay?

No, I think moogleking asking for an actual explanation in this situation is perfectly fine. He's giving a comprehensive explanation for what's happening in EP1, and others are countering it by giving lesser explanations. What's wrong with him trying to keep the discussion at the level of detail he's looking for? If he just lets it slide then what he's trying to talk about gets derailed.

But moogleking, I really appreciated your full theory. I'm just reading through EP1 over again through the PS3 version and keeping this in mind will be interesting.

One thing I noticed when going through (I'm only up to just before the 2nd Twilight) is that when keeping in mind the idea of the fake first twilight, it seems very obvious that Eva and Hideyoshi are in on it. And with your theory, it would make sense that Kyrie would go straight to them first so that they wouldn't suspect her after there are real murders, with them knowing there are fake deaths.

It's not really a necessary point, I'm just purely curious, do you think Yasu is the one that told them what to say about the 1st twilight stuff? What I mean is, did Yasu select Eva to try and get Battler to think more clearly about the mystery at hand (18th/19th person deal, who should be suspected etc.) and Hideyoshi to pass on Shannon's would-have-been feelings to George? If so, I think this would give insight into Yasu's plan, and when Eva and Hideyoshi are killed, it could mark the end of Yasu's planning and the beginning of someone else's doings. As in when Kyrie starts running the show in your theory.

This then leads to who pulls out Kinzo's corpse? It's possible Kyrie could do this, if we assume the adults find about about the death status of Kinzo when taking part in the murder-play, as EP7 shows is a possibility. But then again the Kanon vs. Beatrice is very interesting. This could also mean that after realizing the plan's gone awry, Yasu does something outside that they originally didn't expect to do? Or Kinzo's definite corpse be another hint to Battler about the 'heart' of what's going on.

I don't remember enough details about the rest of the episode to make anymore comments, but would love to hear your thoughts.

Would also love to hear any complete theories you have for EP2-4.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Crinias

I currently have 2 doubts:
1) Is Ange's reality in 1998 the reality of Rokkenjima-Prime, or just a possibility?

I really hope that the 1998 we've seen is Rokkenjima-Prime, but truth to be told we don't know, and since EP6 everything was put under discussion. We simply can't be sure about that... sadly...
Well there's Bern in EP7 that said that once you open the catbox what remains is Eva surviving while everyone else dies in the explosion, but who knows? And that still doesn't mean that the Ange we saw was the real one.

Originally Posted by Crinias

2) Where the hell did Meta-Battler come from? I assume Yasu made a promise with Lambda so that she could be be a (temporal , fake) witch, as indicated in Lambda's Diary TIP - it explains how she became Meta-Beatrice. However, I have no idea where Meta-Battler came from. Is he the Battler from Episode 1, or the real Battler that died in Rokkenjima-Prime?

Again, we don't have a clue. If magic doesn't exist in the real world then real world and meta world are completely separated. We don't really know what exactly the meta world is. It could be actually a magical dimension, or maybe it's just some metaphorical representation that is only meant for us readers.

We don't really know, we can only speculate about it...

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Crinias

I currently have 2 doubts:
1) Is Ange's reality in 1998 the reality of Rokkenjima-Prime, or just a possibility?

There is some division on this. Some people think Hachijou or another author wrote that. Others think that's how Ange really saw things. Part of the reason people might think that's fictional is because of a red that says because of Battler's sin everyone dies but there are ways to get around that so that Eva does die anyway.

Originally Posted by Crinias

2) Where the hell did Meta-Battler come from? I assume Yasu made a promise with Lambda so that she could be be a (temporal , fake) witch, as indicated in Lambda's Diary TIP - it explains how she became Meta-Beatrice. However, I have no idea where Meta-Battler came from. Is he the Battler from Episode 1, or the real Battler that died in Rokkenjima-Prime?

Thanks in advance!

Personally I think it's Battler from episode 1. In episode 5 Erika also isn't really shown to be on Lambda and Bern's level that much until the Tea Party. Or in other words after 24:00. It could also be a fictional Battler kind of thing (and Erika even implies something like that to Beatrice in that episode when she says the meta fiction thing is popular these days) but thinking about those little details isn't really too important when you look at the bigger picture.

[AuraTwilight]

1) Is Ange's reality in 1998 the reality of Rokkenjima-Prime, or just a possibility?

We have no idea. EP6 seems to imply that, at the very least, Featherine can fuck with Ange's 1998-world or something.

2) Where the hell did Meta-Battler come from? I assume Yasu made a promise with Lambda so that she could be be a (temporal , fake) witch, as indicated in Lambda's Diary TIP - it explains how she became Meta-Beatrice. However, I have no idea where Meta-Battler came from. Is he the Battler from Episode 1, or the real Battler that died in Rokkenjima-Prime?

He's the Battler of EP1. Remember, the episodes we've read are all fictional stories penned by someone. EP6 implies that this INCLUDES the Meta-World.

[Moogleking]

Originally Posted by Keriaku

No, I think moogleking asking for an actual explanation in this situation is perfectly fine. He's giving a comprehensive explanation for what's happening in EP1, and others are countering it by giving lesser explanations. What's wrong with him trying to keep the discussion at the level of detail he's looking for? If he just lets it slide then what he's trying to talk about gets derailed.

Thanks for considering what I'm trying to do here. While the devil's advocate type responses are good, it is hard to respond when I have given the reasoning behind my explanation and then someone throws something out without any reasoning behind it.

Originally Posted by Keriaku

But moogleking, I really appreciated your full theory. I'm just reading through EP1 over again through the PS3 version and keeping this in mind will be interesting.

One thing I noticed when going through (I'm only up to just before the 2nd Twilight) is that when keeping in mind the idea of the fake first twilight, it seems very obvious that Eva and Hideyoshi are in on it. And with your theory, it would make sense that Kyrie would go straight to them first so that they wouldn't suspect her after there are real murders, with them knowing there are fake deaths.

It's not really a necessary point, I'm just purely curious, do you think Yasu is the one that told them what to say about the 1st twilight stuff? What I mean is, did Yasu select Eva to try and get Battler to think more clearly about the mystery at hand (18th/19th person deal, who should be suspected etc.) and Hideyoshi to pass on Shannon's would-have-been feelings to George? If so, I think this would give insight into Yasu's plan, and when Eva and Hideyoshi are killed, it could mark the end of Yasu's planning and the beginning of someone else's doings. As in when Kyrie starts running the show in your theory.

This then leads to who pulls out Kinzo's corpse? It's possible Kyrie could do this, if we assume the adults find about about the death status of Kinzo when taking part in the murder-play, as EP7 shows is a possibility. But then again the Kanon vs. Beatrice is very interesting. This could also mean that after realizing the plan's gone awry, Yasu does something outside that they originally didn't expect to do? Or Kinzo's definite corpse be another hint to Battler about the 'heart' of what's going on.

I don't remember enough details about the rest of the episode to make anymore comments, but would love to hear your thoughts.

Would also love to hear any complete theories you have for EP2-4.

If Shannon's corpse isn't really there, I guess Yasu would have had to have told them what to say about the ring. Eva does seem to be forcing Battler to think about the mysteries, which is a pretty interesting thing to consider.

I don't actually think Yasu is both Shannon and Kanon, but I thought it would be interesting to assume that and try to come up with a full explanation for the games. So far, I have not seen anyone post a full explanation for any of the games. Several people post bits and pieces, but I know I'm not smart enough to just put it all together for myself. This theory I put together seems pretty reasonable actually, and I think it explains the motivations in a believable way. I would love to see other people's full explanation for individual games' events.

I originally had a pretty good theory for game 2 involving Rosa being played by Beatrice, but I haven't revisited it yet since game 7. I'll see if I can come up with something. It is hard with Yasu being Shannon and Kanon, since a lot of what we're shown is just plain false. My original theories all attempt to explain the magic scenes as shades of what is really happening, but it is much harder with Yasu.

[AuraTwilight]

Thanks for considering what I'm trying to do here. While the devil's advocate type responses are good, it is hard to respond when I have given the reasoning behind my explanation and then someone throws something out without any reasoning behind it.

I've offered the only necessary reasoning needed to justify my responses. If you absolutely, certainly require it, I could give my attempt at a full answer, though I'll say right now that I don't believe there's a real culprit in Rokkenjima Prime. Is that okay?

[Moogleking]

Go for it, I would love to see other people's full explanations of some of the individual games' events.

[Keriaku]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I've offered the only necessary reasoning needed to justify my responses. If you absolutely, certainly require it, I could give my attempt at a full answer, though I'll say right now that I don't believe there's a real culprit in Rokkenjima Prime. Is that okay?

Go for it, it would be much appreciated. But if there's no culprit, can you still give a logically presented version of generally what happens in the arcs, without resorting the just 'then people killed each other', or some sort?

I personally think that the question arcs of Umineko will be similar to Higurashi in the regard that something sets off different people in different ways over the various Fragments, regardless of whether or not there's a mastermind. It'd be interesting if this was the case.

[Moogleking]

I went with something like that originally, but then I felt like the game was trying to say there was supposed to be one mastermind driving everything. I have a hard time saying it is Yasu, because Yasu doesn't seem to want to actually murder people. I suppose the culprit can unintentionally get everyone killed (or to kill each other).

[Gar Logan78]

Originally Posted by Crinias

Well, since Episode 8 is coming out soon, I really need to get this off my chest before I withdraw from all umineko forums in order to avoid spoilers. Would someone mind clearing things up for me?

I currently have 2 doubts:
1) Is Ange's reality in 1998 the reality of Rokkenjima-Prime, or just a possibility?

Thanks in advance!

Speaking of this, I keep hearing people say Ange was killed in 1998. I remember the phone call between Okonogi and Amakusa that hinted that Amakusa was going to kill her, but I thought the Ange timeline went like this:

-Search for clues of her past
-Visit Hachijou/Read to Featherine
-Go to Rokkenjima
-Meet Sumadera and her thugs
-All the thugs are killed

I dont' remember reading about Ange being killed as well. Was her death just implied by EP6 or am I forgetting something?

[SonozakiUshiromiya]

The end credits roll of ep 4 says she died in 1998.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Gar Logan78

Speaking of this, I keep hearing people say Ange was killed in 1998. I remember the phone call between Okonogi and Amakusa that hinted that Amakusa was going to kill her, but I thought the Ange timeline went like this:

-Search for clues of her past
-Visit Hachijou/Read to Featherine
-Go to Rokkenjima
-Meet Sumadera and her thugs
-All the thugs are killed

I dont' remember reading about Ange being killed as well. Was her death just implied by EP6 or am I forgetting something?

It's implied Amakusa killed her in episode 6 from his phonecall with Okonogi. Also Episode 4's end roll says she died.

But there are plenty of people who think Ange didn't die and that Amakusa saved her or something. The end rolls also aren't really all that reliable.