Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha the Movie 2nd A's Discussion Thread (spoilers)

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

They are all important to the story as is. I've never suggested otherwise.

Then I mis-read your comments before. To me, it sounded like you were saying that they weren't important at all and that's what I was getting at.

[Solace]

*popcorn* *sips drink*

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

Then I mis-read your comments before. To me, it sounded like you were saying that they weren't important at all and that's what I was getting at.

It would be a huge stretch for me to say something like that. Irrelevant characters are generally ones missing names, backgrounds, or only relevance is some tangent, typically filler. But you can't really have filler in an anime original like Nanoha, unless they make some non-canon stuff. So unless they say otherwise, I have to accept it despite my frequent jokes. Liking it is another issue.

Technically, we could interchange anything. it just wouldn't be the same show anymore. There's just so much you can change before it becomes fundamentally different.

Originally Posted by Solace

*popcorn* *sips drink*

Where did you get popcorn?

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

...

Well, if I said it, it'll cause a flame war and this section of the boards will get shut down.

Just because you don't spell the name out, that doesn't make it any less obvious.

I already made a case to why that's not true, however.

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by Solace

*popcorn* *sips drink*

He came. He saw. He raised his hammer, tied it up to a tree and is waiting to shoot the rope with a .50 caliber bullet.

@Archon: It's a pity Graham will be removed. Now the book would- *waits for movie*

[Sansker]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

And we're disagreeing with you, and this argument is stemming from that. So why are you reminding us this?

Because, as it is, I think we already lost track of it.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Sansker

Because, as it is, I think we already lost track of it.

Well, the argument at its core is still about how important Hayate is as a main character, so it's not off track, whether you like it or not.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Well, the argument at its core is still about how important Hayate is as a main character, so it's not off track, whether you like it or not.

She's a main character?

[Sansker]

I don't mind it but this is already beyond that

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

She's a main character?

She was (I think).

[Kaijo]

Interesting discussion. I'd say Hayate is both a main character and an important one. Unlike some main characters, though, her contributions to the plot are more subtle less pronounced... but they are undeniable. She's like the pebble dropped in a pond, that causes a lot of ripples. Or perhaps more accurately, the butterfly that flaps her wings and causes a tsunami on the other side of the ocean.

But as has been pointed out, we know how important Hayate is, because the Wolkenritter are now free of the book. If she wasn't who she was, the cycle would have continued. I would have preferred, then, that Hayate got a similar treatment in the A's movie, that Fate got in the first movie: a better understanding of her backstory and what made her the person she is, because that is a HUGE reason for why the A's plot happens the way it does. Unlike in the first movie and series as we see, you don't need to explain much about Fate's backstory at all; it is not very important to the plot. What we got in S1 is all we really needed to know.

[Sansker]

I still think the bits about Precia in the first movie did help the plot.

However, no Hayate isn’t still all that important as character. Her problem is that she is just too passive during all this and her role really fits as plot device. As character she never really shines in any particular way. Kind of like Yuuno or Chrono on that line: they just get the job done and their personas are not as important as those roles they play. With Nanoha and Fate we see them being connected to the plot and act more as humans, the same with the Wolkenritter. But sadly Hayate is not exactly the same.

Now she was set in an important spot but again that is her role as plot device really saying she is the one that must be the master of the book is not really true. What matters is that the Wolkenritter wanted to do this on their own free will; the tragedy comes from them caring and losing everything. Hayate was pretty much ok with this and that is what always stay out about her, how light she and her mood is compare to the other more intense characters. In the end that affects her.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Sansker

I still think the bits about Precia in the first movie did help the plot.

However, no Hayate isn’t still all that important as character. Her problem is that she is just too passive during all this and her role really fits as plot device. As character she never really shines in any particular way. Kind of like Yuuno or Chrono on that line: they just get the job done and their personas are not as important as those roles they play. With Nanoha and Fate we see them being connected to the plot and act more as humans, the same with the Wolkenritter. But sadly Hayate is not exactly the same.

Now she was set in an important spot but again that is her role as plot device really saying she is the one that must be the master of the book is not really true. What matters is that the Wolkenritter wanted to do this on their own free will; the tragedy comes from them caring and losing everything. Hayate was pretty much ok with this and that is what always stay out about her, how light she and her mood is compare to the other more intense characters. In the end that affects her.

I have to disagree, because it's not really about initative that defines a character as long as their experiences are meaningful. Hayate didn't do that much, but really she's in a wheelchair. She can't go that far.

On a more serious note it's very obvious throughout the story that she expresses her will by imparting her orders on the Wolkies to limit their behavior. Ultimately it's what drives the Wolkie's considerations and all the emotional impact.

Having the ability to invoke your will, your own feelings, and desires is part of what defines a character. It's arguable that her motivations were more well defined than Nanoha's for quite a while. And the point is that her will is what ends up resolving the problem and giving everyone that chance to free them all. Sure, Hayate isn't a particularly deep character, but it's not like her relations with the other characters are throwaway. They remain critical throughout her and the Wokies's experiences in StrikerS and beyond too.

[Sansker]

But that is the problem. To be more “clear” she is not as memorable and sure as hell always gets the worse part when comes down to her screen time. Then she is just stuck with being best friends with Nanoha and Fate without having them actually talk to each other until the very last chapters in a rather rush way.

I just keep saying that because we don’t see this story from her eyes. Not more than hints of how she feels with a family, why is she so mature and in peace about dying, to the point it seems she doesn’t care what will be of her knights when she dies. For having her as “main character” is just not possible to say she is in the spot light enough for that. She is more central than Yuuno in the first season but that is only because the Book of Darkness keeps the attention all along the story.

Hayate is really not well define in anything beyond her plot role. She is too passive during this and lacks any kind of goal until the very end when her goal was “fix this crap that is going so wrong”. All along I think she doesn’t really steps up from her role as Nanoha and Fate did for me in the first seasons and the movie. So she feels flat compare even to them. A lot of this stuff is just base too much on your own preferences and really getting this farther than it should.

Does that means Hayate is a bad character? No, just a poor one that fits the spot just well. She doesn’t have any kind of change because we can’t tell how she was first compare to how she is at the end or what did happen to her and how this change her. With Fate her character grows and changes and even Nanoha finds new determination and ends an adventure. Hayate? She is drag along for the part by the others and kind of just push in to the action. And she is the main character? I don’t think so. No real arc, no real change and focus on others points of view A’s doesn’t make Hayate the protagonist. As simple as that.

Now that doesn’t mean I think she is a bad character. I think she barely count as one, at least when force to be a “main character”. Hey even in StrikerS I could barely decide what was her deal because of how little I ever get from her. Up to this day Hayate has been kind of a third wheel set with Nanoha and Fate just because. Fans of her maker her the jewel of the series, others hate her, I did hate her some time until I realize I just hate her fan made persona and come in terms with her canon role.

[Kaijo]

You've never had to deal with horrifying pain, I see.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Sansker

I just keep saying that because we don’t see this story from her eyes. Not more than hints of how she feels with a family,

/facepalm

Apparently, Sansker doesn't get "hints" unless they smash him over the head with a hammer.

Hayate is really not well define in anything beyond her plot role. She is too passive during this and lacks any kind of goal until the very end when her goal was “fix this crap that is going so wrong”. All along I think she doesn’t really steps up from her role...

Sorry disabled people going through horrifying pain. Apparently, Sansker doesn't believe you can be main characters. You're stuck in a chair, see, and that means you are automatically passive and not active. Main characters can only be active. It doesn't matter what you feel, or what mental and emotional strength you have, or even if you change the plot greatly just by being there.

[Sansker]

The story was never about Hayate suffering, going then overcome her pain and living happy. Was about magical battles between two groups of people with opposite goals and yet good intentions. The drama came out of the group of antagonist caring a lot for this situation while our heroes try to do well and stop them. Besides Hayate is passive, she is because everything that happens is going beyond her control or knowledge until the end. She waits until the plot hits her. Besides I don’t consider her to be a bad character. She does her job well, but she is not the main character and really is kind of just put there later on. Her “mental strength” and all that isn’t important because how the story is construct. In the end everything resolves a little too fast for its own good for that matter.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Sansker

The story was never about Hayate suffering, going then overcome her pain and living happy.

You and I have watched very different A's then, because in the one I watched Hayate going through suffering and her own attempts to live with it and other people's attempts to save her from it was the core of the entire plot.

[Sansker]

Hayate is just never in contact with the heroes until near the end and she is again push aside from the entire battle. If she was the focus and center then she should be more in contact with everything. She never really seems to want to live more, she knows her time is up and is ok with that. Again the transition between she being alone and know having a family to take care of is fast and really odd for a 9 years old. She is in the age she needs parents not in the age she can be a mother. That always kind push me away from the entire family idea, I just can’t see a child being motherly mature with an adult and think is ok.

We might just see the stories different. As simple as that.

[Rising Dragon]

She was pushed aside from the entire battle?

Then who was the woman who stopped the Book of Darkness and brought back the Wolkenritter and fired Mistletain and Ragnarok? Couldn't have been Hayate.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

She was pushed aside from the entire battle?

Then who was the woman who stopped the Book of Darkness and brought back the Wolkenritter and fired Mistletain and Ragnarok? Couldn't have been Hayate.

Was it Fate? Or maybe Nanoha? Do they have those spells? I mean, if it wasn't Hayate, well..

Who DID turn the Protection Program to stone anyway?

Hmm...

I could have sworn it was Hayate...