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Old 2018-05-23, 13:58   Link #41
MCAL
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Considering the whole Yuki injury red herring from PR was kept in, I'm guessing they're going to keep the Kagari=Yuki twist in VA.
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Old 2018-05-23, 14:00   Link #42
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Considering the pacing, they will probably do both, which will throw off people even more. Once we are done with PR, we will probably be sent back to the common route with Okarin receiving the D RINE and thus going to the V&A and CMW routes.

The good news is that they made Judy Reyers less obvious since they didn't make her say "pull back", but then again, they shouldn't have made that blatant close camera pan last week. Meanwhile, I'm surprised that scene with Yuki wasn't done with everyone, so Okarin would actually have some lingering doubt about her.
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Old 2018-05-23, 14:14   Link #43
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And here I thought they'd be skipping all of that crappy Kagari-Yuki clusterfuck. Dear Goodness...
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Old 2018-05-23, 16:34   Link #44
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I mean, if the person wearing the helmet was Kagari, then we had 2 Kagari at the same time. That is impossible to explain. I hope they just go with Judy.
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Old 2018-05-23, 16:38   Link #45
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It was always Judy in PR.
Kagari posing as Yuki and acting as an antagonist only happen in V&A due to the setup of that worldline.

In PR, Kagari is pretty much destined to be Kurisu's memory vessel.
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Old 2018-05-23, 16:44   Link #46
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
It was always Judy in PR.
I know. I meant keeping it that way.
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Old 2018-05-24, 02:21   Link #47
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I really don't see the problem with the whole Kagari = Yuki thing... In the game. I mean it was consistent enough. It was a different worldline with a different past.


It doesn't make any sense for Yuki to have been hurt since Kagari was right there in the room I mean what? Did this happen like this in the game or is this a strange consequence of trying to go through the events of two routes?
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Old 2018-05-24, 02:25   Link #48
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In the game, Yuki hurting her arm was a red herring as well. We learned that she actually fell during her baking lessons in Recursive Mother Goose.
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Old 2018-05-24, 02:27   Link #49
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It seems my memory of videogames gets hazy when there are a lot of different timelines.
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Old 2018-05-24, 02:51   Link #50
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
I really don't see the problem with the whole Kagari = Yuki thing... In the game. I mean it was consistent enough. It was a different worldline with a different past.
The problem is that the worldline isn't supposed to change so drastically and still match the current events like that. This isn't similar to the dmail cases because those -directly- affected the past with straightforward messages whereas Kagari's case is a succession of changes in the future first. We are meant to accept that Future leskinen somehow managed to make his past self change his plans in 1998, with Kagari posing as Yuki starting from 2007. This require a lot of convoluted changes such as being sure the original won't be around Akiba for an extended amount of time and whatnot. Even then, the initial setup of V&A worldline isn't that different for leskinen, so the fact he took such a drastic decision in V&A and not in PR doesnt' make sense.
Even if we assume Leskinen pulled the strings to prepare that kind of situation well in advance, it doesn't explain why he is so badly prepared in the present: why would he need a mole so well prepared in advance, yet doesn't do jack shit afterwards? If he knew the FG lab had something to do with the time machine, he could just do like SERN and send a stratfo platoon to capture them. Even if we believe the fact it was Kagari's idea, that's still an incredible amount of efforts and preparations 3 years in advance for something not certain. Since present leskinen learned about the future by toying Kagari's brain in the past, there is no reason for him to do such roundabout way: he could simply alter the present by simply securing Okarin, Daru and Maho.

Another reason why this plot device is bad is that it has no real relevancy to the plot aside of screwing the reader's perspective if they don't do all stray sheep routes first before x day protocol routes.
Not only Yuki barely had any relevant role in the game as a whole, but Kagari "posing as Yuki" doesn't have any meaning aside for the shock factor, moreso it weirdly gives that cheap confession about Daru. And speaking of "Yuki and Daru" thing, V&A makes the situation incredibly unstable because Daru never interacted with the real Yuki, but Kagari only. Yet, Daru and the real Yuki MUST be a couple otherwise there is no way Suzuha could be there just as usual. So for some reason, the real Yuki would come back in Japan without any issue and still develop feelings for Daru in time? You could argue the attractor field is at work here, but the difference is so large yet the "aftermath is the same" that it challenges greatly the consistency of the narrative.

Finally, the most problematic part of this plot device is that it is the "default" world line. If Okarin answers Amadeus' call at the shrine, the reading steiner isn't triggered. Ergo, it means that if Okarin keep the usual course of action, this means that "Yuki is in Europe" and "Kagari is actually Yuki is disguise" are already occuring. Conversively, this means that, if Okabe turn off his phone, Leskinen throw that plan to the trash for some reason. This is backwards: a world line shift always indicate a change of the past because someone or something changed it, be it at that time or from another time axis. Since the "default" route is V&A, it is reasonable to conclude that Leskinen prepared the brainwashed kagari plan from the get go, and it is only a certain different event in PR that would make him change his mind. This means that Leskinen plan was deliberately foiled by himself for... what? Because he lost interest in Okarin? That's far fetched.
This also has nothing to do with Amadeus project being shut down too early, since the early part of Stray Sheep still had Amadeus being active and yet Kagari just lost her memories.

If they kept Kagari's appearance and setup the same as stray sheep, while Yuki is still the same, the plot in V&A wouldn't be affected at all in the grand scheme of things. In this situation, the decision of making Kagari Kurisu's substitute or a brainwashed soldier could have been decided few weeks before the start of sg0, not a cascading chain of event from the future affecting the past and so forth.
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Old 2018-05-24, 03:48   Link #51
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But I need confirmation on that, @Klashikari. Is that Yuki-Kagari thing happening in the Anime?
Is there anything that can already tell us if it's happening or not? I'm getting confused here...
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Old 2018-05-24, 04:09   Link #52
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But I need confirmation on that, @Klashikari. Is that Yuki-Kagari thing happening in the Anime?
Is there anything that can already tell us if it's happening or not? I'm getting confused here...
There's nothing confirmed about what they are doing, no. It's just that, from an adaption standpoint, there isn't much point in keeping the red herring from PR if they aren't going to go through with it. If they were going to change it, then it would make more sense to eliminate the scene from PR all together.

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Old 2018-05-24, 06:28   Link #53
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They could go either way to be honest, but I agree that they probably will stick with the original plot once they are in V&A, since PR red herring implies Yuki might be part of stratfo or DURPA.

However, please note that Okarin himself concluded in PR that Yuki's injury was probably a coincidence. When they were hiding from DURPA in PR, Kagari was hiding with Yuki at one of Daru's hideouts, but the former left on her own because of a subliminal message broadcasted by a truck. So Okarin figured out that Yuki was innocent because there was no reason for her to come back and explain how Kagari left if she really was part of DURPA.

If they adapt that part thoroughly, there isn't really any "red herring" for V&A route, unless they keep it for some pointless mind game there. That's why both adaptation decisions could work.
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Old 2018-05-24, 10:13   Link #54
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Next episode will not be good for my heart...
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Old 2018-05-25, 10:42   Link #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
The problem is that the worldline isn't supposed to change so drastically and still match the current events like that. This isn't similar to the dmail cases because those -directly- affected the past with straightforward messages whereas Kagari's case is a succession of changes in the future first. We are meant to accept that Future leskinen somehow managed to make his past self change his plans in 1998, with Kagari posing as Yuki starting from 2007. This require a lot of convoluted changes such as being sure the original won't be around Akiba for an extended amount of time and whatnot. Even then, the initial setup of V&A worldline isn't that different for leskinen, so the fact he took such a drastic decision in V&A and not in PR doesnt' make sense.
Even if we assume Leskinen pulled the strings to prepare that kind of situation well in advance, it doesn't explain why he is so badly prepared in the present: why would he need a mole so well prepared in advance, yet doesn't do jack shit afterwards? If he knew the FG lab had something to do with the time machine, he could just do like SERN and send a stratfo platoon to capture them. Even if we believe the fact it was Kagari's idea, that's still an incredible amount of efforts and preparations 3 years in advance for something not certain. Since present leskinen learned about the future by toying Kagari's brain in the past, there is no reason for him to do such roundabout way: he could simply alter the present by simply securing Okarin, Daru and Maho.

Another reason why this plot device is bad is that it has no real relevancy to the plot aside of screwing the reader's perspective if they don't do all stray sheep routes first before x day protocol routes.
Not only Yuki barely had any relevant role in the game as a whole, but Kagari "posing as Yuki" doesn't have any meaning aside for the shock factor, moreso it weirdly gives that cheap confession about Daru. And speaking of "Yuki and Daru" thing, V&A makes the situation incredibly unstable because Daru never interacted with the real Yuki, but Kagari only. Yet, Daru and the real Yuki MUST be a couple otherwise there is no way Suzuha could be there just as usual. So for some reason, the real Yuki would come back in Japan without any issue and still develop feelings for Daru in time? You could argue the attractor field is at work here, but the difference is so large yet the "aftermath is the same" that it challenges greatly the consistency of the narrative.

Finally, the most problematic part of this plot device is that it is the "default" world line. If Okarin answers Amadeus' call at the shrine, the reading steiner isn't triggered. Ergo, it means that if Okarin keep the usual course of action, this means that "Yuki is in Europe" and "Kagari is actually Yuki is disguise" are already occuring. Conversively, this means that, if Okabe turn off his phone, Leskinen throw that plan to the trash for some reason. This is backwards: a world line shift always indicate a change of the past because someone or something changed it, be it at that time or from another time axis. Since the "default" route is V&A, it is reasonable to conclude that Leskinen prepared the brainwashed kagari plan from the get go, and it is only a certain different event in PR that would make him change his mind. This means that Leskinen plan was deliberately foiled by himself for... what? Because he lost interest in Okarin? That's far fetched.
This also has nothing to do with Amadeus project being shut down too early, since the early part of Stray Sheep still had Amadeus being active and yet Kagari just lost her memories.

If they kept Kagari's appearance and setup the same as stray sheep, while Yuki is still the same, the plot in V&A wouldn't be affected at all in the grand scheme of things. In this situation, the decision of making Kagari Kurisu's substitute or a brainwashed soldier could have been decided few weeks before the start of sg0, not a cascading chain of event from the future affecting the past and so forth.
What makes you say that it was Leskinen who caused the change in the first place? The main difference between the other line is that Kagari falls in with Reyes rather than Leskinen (I think), because she's the one responsible for her head being filled with Kurisu's memories? Because some kind of butterfly ended up flapping its wings.
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Old 2018-05-25, 11:55   Link #56
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You got it backwards: Kagari was always under Stratfo's custody, but the events changed how she acted prior 3 years or during the ongoing route. DURPA never got her before the start of sg0 and were never interested in her until much later. Reyers herself explained she only found out recently about her compatibility with Kurisu because of stratfo data on her. She knew that because she was a DUPA mole within Stratfo, but prior her betrayal, it was just Stratfo messing around with the FG lab in PR branch.

Leskinen is responsible for Kagari's fate in all routes because
1) Future leskinen is the reason why Kagari went rogue in 1998 and that happened in both routes.
2) Leskinen is confirmed to be the one behind her abduction between 1998 and 2010, as demonstrated in RMG.

PR branch confirms explicitely that Kagari was abducted by stratfo, but depending of the world line, kurisu's memories may be implanted or not.
-She doesn't get Kurisu's memories if the Amadeus project is still fine (early part of PR branch when she still doesn't know about 2036)
-She does have kurisu's memories if the Amadeus project is shut down (middle part of PR)
The difference is self explanatory: in PR, Leskinen decided to implant kurisu's memories as a desperate move because the Amadeus project was shut down (even though Leskinen should know that memory implant is extremely risky because the host might just go vegetable). And the reason why the world line shift happens at the end of PR after deleting kurisu's memories from her head is the usual retroactive change in the series: Leskinen could only get his brainwashing techniques from his future self, who used Kagari for this (confirmed in V&A). The moment Kagari loses Kurisu's memories, Stratfo wouldn't be able to have the brain manipulation techniques, effectively dooming future leskinen actions, thus making Kagari "simply amnesiac" and not made into Kurisu's substitute.
Meanwhile, in V&A, she is always with stratfo due to the severe brainwashing in that worldline. Instead of using her as a memory vessel, he plainly used as a brainwashed soldier.

Reyers is only responsible of her fate at the end of PR where she tries to use the memory implanting machine after "betraying" stratfo. And it is obvious the memory implant technique is different (leskinen doesn't have info from the future here and the machine in this case doesn't simply implant the memories: it literally overwrite completely the memories of the subject). She has no role in RMG, and in TA, Kagari's situation is completely different without any explanation.

Simply put, Kagari's situation is all up to Leskinen, and the changes are way too drastic even though everything else is the same, which is why I consider that as a very dubious narrative.
Kagari only escape twiced from Leskinen clutch: once in 2005 but that only happened for a short while (leading to the recursive song plot in RMG), then in 2010 where she somehow get away from the facility again and got into an accident in Chiba until she is found by a priest.
The latter never happened in V&A, but you got the idea: Leskinen was pretty in control of her life starting from 2036->1998 until 2010, and there is no valid explanation why he changed his plans just like that.

The butterfly effect was always within reason in the franchise, but in this case, it is way too convenient with little logic for a character like Leskinen.
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Old 2018-05-26, 01:19   Link #57
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The fact that Leskinen died in TA route made the whole thing about Kagari's fate even more confusing.

TA route's future is probably the best one: No Leskinen, No Reyes, Amadeus is gone, Kagari is safe(?). How can things go wrong after that I wonder?
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Old 2018-05-26, 02:29   Link #58
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You go into these huge blurbs, but it seems the key difference is whether she is made into a special operative, or whether she becomes part of the memory implanting experiment. I can see this being dependent on whether or not a butterfly flaps their wings.
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Old 2018-05-26, 04:56   Link #59
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The fact that Leskinen died in TA route made the whole thing about Kagari's fate even more confusing.

TA route's future is probably the best one: No Leskinen, No Reyes, Amadeus is gone, Kagari is safe(?). How can things go wrong after that I wonder?
The irony is that TA is the least "sg0" route along with RMG considering it is so off in term of connecting the events with the main "quest" for Okarin to save Kurisu.

Also, TA has the nasty plot hole regarding Kagari: Suzuha should know that there is no way for her to have any relative in 2010. Yet for some reason, they found some "relatives" and Suzuha was fine in letting her go, although she still tagged along. And somehow, we don't know what happened to them either. They really wanted to write both off in that route, but the way how it was one left a lot to be desired.
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You go into these huge blurbs, but it seems the key difference is whether she is made into a special operative, or whether she becomes part of the memory implanting experiment. I can see this being dependent on whether or not a butterfly flaps their wings.
And that's exactly why I'm telling you the butterfly effect shouldn't even have an effect on that, because Leskinen was -characterized- the same way in both branch, consistently for the past, present -and- future which have a cycling outcome as result. The series put a huge emphasis on how characters always do the same thing if the circumstances are the same, proved in both series (Kurisu always asking Okarin to talk with her when he is trying to save Mayuri alone, Maho always going to Japan at some point etc).

As I said, not only it doesn't make sense for him to completely change the type of experiment done on Kagari (memory manipulation in PR VS complete brainwashing in VA), but the fact the decision was done 3 years in advance in VA brings even more issue about consistency but also purpose of doing that. Doing that on purpose 3 years in advance pretty much confirms he knew about Okarin and the other members, but for some reason, he didn't capture them but used Kagari as a mole? That's extremely contradictory when you consider how he was -very- eager to toy with Okarin's brain in GS.

Dismissing my argument with just "butterfly effect" doesn't cut it when I brought the actual points why this goes against the character.
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Old 2018-05-26, 05:46   Link #60
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Any series of events could have warranted that one change. Everything else just spiraled from that single event. The game doesn't go into what it was exactly but that doesn't mean it's impossible or implausible.

Where even is the implication that Leskinen knows as much as you think he does?
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